Is the catholic church bankrupt?

Originally posted by EricD
reply to post by Conspiracy Realist

 

The enduring canard of the Vatican's complicity in the holocaust is complete BS. There are only two reasons that I can see that someone would promulgate these lies.

1) They are virulently anti-Catholic and don't care to research the claims made.
2) They are happy to lie to advance their cause.

Why not pick up a book by an actual scholar who has no dog in the fight and do some research?

Dr. David Dalin, a Rabbi, is a Professor of history and a respected and lauded author. His book 'The Myth of Hitler's Pope' will put an end to anyone's concerns if they are intellectually honest enough to look into the matter.

There is plenty to criticize the Church over. Supporting the holocaust or not acting on behalf of those that were persecuted isn't one. This is just a scurrilous lie.

Eric

Nope im an Atheist i couldnt give 2 flying pigs about Religion or what the corrupt organization at the Vatican preach.

What i do care about though is how corrupt they are in supporting a such a monster like Hitler and his holocaust that i care about, WHY? Because it just shows how corrupt religion can be.

You think its not fact that Catholics had a long term relationship with Hitler?

Prove me wrong.....

In 1933 the Vatican signed a Concordat with Germany making Roman Catholicism the only recognized religion in that country.

Signing the Concordat is Cardinal Pacelli (later to become Pope Pius XII). By 1933, he was the Vatican Secretary of State.

Eugenio Pacelli (Pope Pius XII from 1939 to 1958) was a brilliant diplomat, a cunning politician and a religious crusader. He was appointed Papal Nuncio to Germany in 1920 — the first since the Reformation!! He, more than anybody else outside Germany, helped Hitler to power. He was one of the paramount personalities of the 20th century. He transformed the Vatican into a global political instrument. His pet obsession was Communism, and he became the main instigator of the Cold War.




Adolf Hitler converses with the Papal Nuncio, Archbishop Cesare Orsenigo, at a New Year's reception in Berlin. (January 1, 1935)

A picture tells a thousand words....

[url=http://www.emperors-clothes.com/vatican/cpix.htm]Source[/url

Peace

CR

[edit on 25-4-2008 by Conspiracy Realist]

Originally posted by Conspiracy Realist

Originally posted by EricD
reply to post by Conspiracy Realist

 

1) Nope im an Atheist i couldnt give 2 flying pigs about Religion or what the corrupt organization at the Vatican preach.

2) You think its not fact that Catholics had a long term relationship with Hitler?

3) In 1933 the Vatican signed a Concordat with Germany making Roman Catholicism the only recognized religion in that country.

4) Signing the Concordat is Cardinal Pacelli (later to become Pope Pius XII). By 1933, he was the Vatican Secretary of State.

5) Eugenio Pacelli (Pope Pius XII from 1939 to 1958) was a brilliant diplomat, a cunning politician and a religious crusader. He, more than anybody else outside Germany, helped Hitler to power.

[edit on 25-4-2008 by Conspiracy Realist]

I have edited your comments so that I could address them point by point. I hope that I'm not taking liberties there.

1) Being an atheist doesn't immunize someone from being anti-Catholic. I don't understand your point. It's not a question of one sect of Christianity against another. It's a question of being so willing (or eager) to believe anti-Catholic claims that the person won't do any research to check the veracity of the statements.

2) What's your point? So did the government of Great Britain. A relationship does not translate into an endorsement and a relationship does not mean that the groups involved are friendly, cordial or supportive. The relationship between the Vatican and the Nazis resulted in the saving of lives. Estimates are that it resulted in the savings of hundreds of thousands of lives.

3) What is your point? The organizational structure of the Catholic Church is unique. They have a titular head and a recognized head of state. Who would the German government have an agreement with for another religion that doesn't have a set hierarchy?

But that is meaningless. What is your problem with the concordat? Is it article 16? Saying that they had a concordat is neither a positive nor a negative. What is your specific problem? Or does it just 'sound bad' so you'll throw it in there?

4) Who else would sign it?

5) Care to substantiate that with ANYTHING? At all? Something?

I'm not joking when I say that I could fill page after page of support of the Vatican's actions during WWII. I could do so WITHOUT using Catholic sources. It is incredibly frustrating to have to.

Do just a little bit of research. See what the jews of the day had to say about the Pope. See what the chief Rabbi of Rome had to say about him. See what the founders of Israel had to say. See what the Nazi's had to say. See what the NY Times had to say.

Eric

The overwhelming evidence showing the ties between the RC Church and the Third Reich, shows us that the Church intended to revisit their fallen pride with Hitler as their Roman emperor.

reply to post by Neo Christian Mystic


Man, this gets tiresome quick. Do you have anything to back that up? Have you looked at 'The Myth of Hitlers Pope'? Have you done any research at all?

Seriously, talk about the child abuse problems. Talk about the inquisition. Talk about the sale of indulgences. If you are interested in running down the Catholic Church, there are legitimate complaints to be made.

Support of the Third Reich is not a legitimate claim that can be supported with any intellectual honesty.

Read Dalins book.
Look into Mit Brennender Sorge
Check out the KGB defection of Lt. General Ion Mihai Pacepa
Read 'Hitler, the War and the Pope'
Look into what Marcus Melchior, the Chief Rabbi of Denmark (and a holocaust survivor) had to say about the Pope.
See what the NY Times had to say about his first Papal Encyclical.
While 80% of the Jews in Europe were killed, 80% of the Jews in Italy were saved. That is a historic fact.

A few relevant and contemporaneous comments by influential Jews:

As early as December 1940, in an article in Time magazine, Albert Einstein paid tribute to Pius: “Only the Church stood squarely across the path of Hitler’s campaign for suppressing the truth. I never had any special interest in the Church before, but now I feel a great affection and admiration because the Church alone has had the courage and persistence to stand for intellectual truth and moral freedom. I am forced thus to confess that what I once despised, I now praise unreservedly.”

In 1943, Chaim Weizmann, who would become Israel’s first president, wrote that “the Holy See is lending its powerful help wherever it can, to mitigate the fate of my persecuted co-religionists.”

Moshe Sharett, Israel’s second prime minister, met with Pius in the closing days of the war and “told him that my first duty was to thank him, and through him the Catholic Church, on behalf of the Jewish public for all they had done in the various countries to rescue Jews.”

Rabbi Isaac Herzog, Chief Rabbi of Israel, sent a message in February 1944 declaring, “The people of Israel will never forget what His Holiness and his illustrious delegates, inspired by the eternal principles of religion, which form the very foundation of true civilization, are doing for our unfortunate brothers and sisters in the most tragic hour of our history, which is living proof of Divine Providence in this world.”

In September 1945, Leon Kubowitzky, Secretary General of the World Jewish Congress, personally thanked the Pope for his interventions, and the World Jewish Congress donated $20,000 to Vatican charities “in recognition of the work of the Holy See in rescuing Jews from Fascist and Nazi persecutions.”

I have refrained from posting voluminous text refuting the calumny against Pope Pius and have instead appealed to the better nature of the posters and asking for more serious research efforts. I hope that this will suffice. It gets real boring real quick, but some things need to be refuted regardless of how tiresome it is.


Eric

Hitler's Dritte Reich was about way much more than Die Endlösung der Judenfrage, my friend. The Final Solution first came into effect a decade after the rise of Hitler. And why do you use numbers from Mussolini lead fascist Italy to back up claims about the Vatican, a different country? The fact ius that the Pope blessed Hitler and raised his arm.

Job 38:15 "The wicked are denied their light, and their upraised arm is broken."

What are you talking about? You state:

Originally posted by Neo Christian Mystic
The overwhelming evidence showing the ties between the RC Church and the Third Reich, shows us that the Church intended to revisit their fallen pride with Hitler as their Roman emperor.

and I demonstrate that the Church was NOT in league with Hitler and worked in opposition to his plans.

If you aren't aware of the ties between Hitlers Germany and Mussolini's Italy, then there is a bigger problem going on here.

This all boils down to the fact that the claims that Pope Pius and the Church were in league with Hitler is ludicrous and in polar opposition to reality.

Eric

I'm sorry, but noone can deny the fact that the Roman Catholic Church endorced Hitler and his Third Reich. They did. Period. End of discussion. They may have regretted at some time, but as far as the vatican was concerned Mussolini was right for Italy, Franco for Spain and Hitler for Germany. The Pope loves the fasces. After all he believes he has been given his fasces from God. A fasches is a punnishing rod like a club. Mussolini had fasches in his family crest, and thereby we call his movement fascism. The Norwegian police have fasces in their heraldic weapon. A handful of staffs tied around an axe. And I should tell you that the Norwegian police are fascists

Like I explained, Hitler Germany was way much more than Jews. Among other things it was color movies and the Volkswagen Beatle, Autobahns and aviation excellence.

[edit on 29/4/2008 by Neo Christian Mystic]

reply to post by Neo Christian Mystic


Ok, because you say it's so, doesn't make it reality. Can you please provide any support for what you are claiming? The Church at no time supported or endorsed Hitler.

I provided references to scholarly works, quotes from contemporaneous sources and suggestions on what should be researched.

I'm not trying to be confrontational, but it's hard to take your comments seriously without any supporting data.

Eric

reply to post by EricD


I posted pictures of various catholic clergyman conversing and socialising with Hitler and his fascist troops....

I posted a picture of Adolf Hitler conversing with the Papal Nuncio, Archbishop Cesare Orsenigo, at a New Year's reception in Berlin.

What more evidence would you like that isnt visible already???

CR

reply to post by Conspiracy Realist


How about anything that puts those photos into context?

Let me ask you this, if I showed you a picture of an American diplomat with Hitler, would you then say that the US was in support of nazi Germany?

I can produce a photo of Hitlers banker with Roosevelt. Was the US president working with Hitler?

There was a nazi plan called "Rabat-Fohn," to be executed in January 1944. The plan called for the eighth division of the SS cavalry, disguised as Italians, to seize St. Peter's and "massacre Pius XII with the entire Vatican”—and specifically names "the papal protest in favor of the Jews" as the cause. Doesn't sound like a warm and cuddly relationship to me.

Did you look into anything that I posted? Is this just a futile exercise where your mind is made up and that's that?

Eric

Originally posted by EricD
reply to post by Conspiracy Realist

 

How about anything that puts those photos into context?

I guess they are blocking the sun from the face with those lifted arms...

Pacelli became Pope Pius XII on the eve of WW2 in 1939. Because of his close associations with Germany, he was accused of remaining silent about the persecution of the Jews. Also there were many instances of local Catholic Churches in various countries that were anti-Semitic.

Source: "Hitler's Pope" by John Cornwell

We share in the grief of humanity [at the death of Pius XII]…. When fearful martyrdom came to our people in the decade of Nazi terror, the voice of the pope was raised for the victims. The life of our times was enriched by a voice speaking out on the great moral truths above the tumult of daily conflict. We mourn a great servant of peace.

~ Golda Meir

No keener rebuke has come to Nazism than from Pope Pius XI and his successor, Pope Pius XII.

~ Rabbi Louis Finkelstein, chancellor, Jewish Theological Seminary of America

In the most difficult hours of which we Jews of Romania have passed through, the generous assistance of the Holy See…was decisive and salutary. It is not easy for us to find the right words to express the warmth and consolation we experienced because of the concern of the supreme pontiff, who offered a large sum to relieve the sufferings of deported Jews…. The Jews of Romania will never forget these facts of historic importance.

~ Rabbi Alexander Safran, chief rabbi of Romania

The people of Israel will never forget what His Holiness and his illustrious delegates, inspired by the eternal principles of religion, which form the very foundation of true civilization, are doing for our unfortunate brothers and sisters in the most tragic hour of our history, which is living proof of Divine Providence in this world.

~ Rabbi Isaac Herzog, chief rabbi of Israel

I told [Pope Pius XII] that my first duty was to thank him, and through him the Catholic Church, on behalf of the Jewish public for all they had done in the various countries to rescue Jews…. We are deeply grateful to the Catholic Church.

~ Moshe Sharett (who later became Israel’s first foreign minister and second prime minister)

Source - 'They Myth of Hitlers Pope' by Rabbi David Dalin

Eric

reply to post by EricD


Where are the anti nazi quotes by Pius XII himself? Can't seem to find them anywhere? We know he was deeply involved in German politics and agenda, and he didn't speek up against the Final Solution. All we have is a bunch of ill hearted Catholics who want to clear up their past.

Actually, I did reference them. I guess you didn't check out what I posted eh? I know, it makes it difficult to have blind loyalty to an outdated canard when you actually have to look at facts. Sorry, didn't mean to jar you from your unreasoned hatred of someone who doesn't deserve it.


BTW, I was purposefully trying to NOT use Catholic sources so there wouldn't be an accusation of bias. That's why I referenced the NY Times and numerous Jewish leaders. I'm at the least sourcing references that don't have a dog in the fight, as opposed to rabid, unthinking anti-Catholics.

Eric

[edit on 8-5-2008 by EricD]

How many of the rabbis you cite survived the holocost?

I believe all. Why? What's your point?

BTW, I've looked into the claims of Cornwall and others. I've read the concordat and read commentaries on it. I've seen the photos and done some research on them. I've read descriptions of the Pope by the Nazi's. I've even looked into Cornwall's later work where he changes his stance on the motivations of Pius.

Have you bothered to look into anything that goes against your predisposition to slam Catholics?

As I stated earlier, I have absolutely no problem with peoples outrage at the child abuse scandals, people questioning the selling of indulgences, people arguing about dogmatic issues or topics such as the Inquisitions.

I'm not blinded to the faults of the Church through history. But blindly accusing the Pius and the Church of working in concert with or supporting Hitler comes very close to bearing false witness.

I don't want to ascribe motives to someone that I have never met, but I do have to question your reasoning and (lack of?) methodology.

Eric

Is the catholic church bankrupt?

Spiritually yes, financially no way

Originally posted by EricD
I believe all. Why? What's your point?

I was just curious, nothing else.

It's a fact that the ties between the Vatican and the Third Reich were weak, but they existed. Hitler was blessed by the Pope and somewhere sometime, sorry don't know the source, I read that Pius said in a speech that he looked forward to again see Europe united, and that he saw Hitler as the new Emperor of a third Roman Empire, which is what lies behind the whole name "Dritte Reich", the third Roman Empire. First we have the Roman Empire of the Cæsars, then we have the Holy Roman Empire of the Franks and the Germans under the RC Church, then at last we have the third Reich of Hitler which could have turned into a wet dream for the Pope and his cardinals. Todays EU is the fourth "Empire" or Reich if you like. EU was created by the Rome Treaty, so the connection to Rome is there indeed.

Originally posted by Neo Christian Mystic

It's a fact that the ties between the Vatican and the Third Reich were weak, but they existed. Hitler was blessed by the Pope and somewhere sometime, sorry don't know the source, I read that Pius said in a speech that he looked forward to again see Europe united, and that he saw Hitler as the new Emperor of a third Roman Empire, which is what lies behind the whole name "Dritte Reich", the third Roman Empire.

Don't you think that if you are going to say something along those lines that you owe it to too everyone who might read what you say to ensure that it is accurate?

Really, a lot of people would think that there are few things that you can say about a human being that are worse than that they were in league with Hitler.

Don't you think that if you are going to make the claims that you do that you owe it everyone (including own integrity) to say where and when and who documented these things happening?

If a claim is being made that is this serious, don't you believe that there is a heavy burden of proof that is placed on the person making the claim? Even if you don't like Pope Pius, wouldn't any human being deserve a bit more before being accused of being in league with Hitler?

Eric

[edit on 9-5-2008 by EricD]