Extra help for black pupils urged

Originally posted by crestone
Talk is cheap. If you really want to know why the data is what it is, go and be a Big Brother/Big Sister to one of the failing students.

Ah, but that is the thing about situations such as these.

People want to complain about it but when it comes down to helping solve the issue even on a personal level its the "you're on your own" attitude. "Not my problem".

People become callous and counterproductive. They are not complaining to find an answer but simply to complain and in some cases to find a way to feel superior. The argument is that all students are equal and should be treated as such so no favors to the under achievers. Why help the black ones if they are failing.

Ok but if we are all equal colorless brothers and you feel that no one group should be singled out for specific help then you have no choice BUT to help. If in fact you truly believe that they all are equal, or British as someone put it, then some of your British brothers and sister clearly need help. Imagine that the article was written about a group of British students that are failing not black ones.

What are you going to do? You don't want to help your fellow Brits?

Personally I say if they are failing and need more help then give it to them. If I was a brunette student in a classroom consisting of brunettes and redheads and the teacher pulled us aside and told us that the redheads are not doing so well and they may need a little extra help or creative assistance to help them catch up I would have no issue with that. I may even tutor some of them.

That's what you do if you actually care. You don't turn your back and say "you had your chance, no favors" if you believe them to be your people.

This article hasn't said that they would ONLY focus on the hindered black students and not the white ones (most schools work with students that do poorly) so it isn't leaving any other group out.

Also to address a previous point, racism can be selective. It doesn't mean you have to hate all groups of people you know? Meaning Asians don't have to suffer the abuse of a bigot that doesn't want to target them. Reminds me of my friends neighbors that told them that they didn't mind others coming into the area but they don't like Native Americans. It's weird like that.

I think mostly when people get outraged over these sort of issues it isn't because they care it's because they want to be angry and sometimes it's because they want to be angry with certain people.

Do any of you Brits care that these Brits are failing or do you just care that they may get help because of it?

- Lee

reply to post by lee anoma


I care about the failure of ALL pupils, and think something is fundamentally wrong with our education system.

I also think that singling out a particular ethnic group and trying to focus on fixing only their problems is indicative of an attitude that has become prevalent throughout parts of UK society.

It's like when we see on the news here where the same people will say "we have to stop black on black crime" when the reality should be "we have to stop ALL crime"

Focusing attention on a particular group may actually increase racial tension, and cause greater divides in schools and communities.

reply to post by budski


Pfft..If there is a list someone will always be at the bottom,,,, if you dont like being at the bottom,, do something,,,I have/ and will help anyone I know if they are really trying to better themselves.

Culturally bias..again pfft..compare the culture of the Asians and Indians versus the bottom rung..compare the music, the "family unit", the emphasis in education, respect for adult's and their guidance in the family unit.

Check the demographics of males of wage earning ages,, and who is incarcerated,, not many Asians or Indians topping that list,,,in the US anyway.

You want me to them help do what ,,?

I believe skyfloating has a point (as is usually the case). All races are equally admirable, but in different ways. Anyone who doesn't think that race carries unique traits is wrongly conditioned. Every race has the ability to learn, but the techniques required to achieve that may well differ. The Western education system was developed in white European countries for white European children and it has worked for them. Doesn't mean it's going to work for other races. Asian/Indian children do well - perhaps because they require similar teaching methods to Europeans (after all, both races have Indo-European origins), or perhaps simply because they are more adaptable in that sense.

That being said, should the British system be altered to cater for black students? Not in my opinion. Britain is a white European country and whilst moderate numbers of immigrants are welcome, they should adapt to the British system and culture - not the other way around.

And yes, the education system is deeply flawed. I agree with skyfloating on that point as well. But that doesn't explain why white and Asian children cope with it whilst others don't. I didn't enjoy school, but through discipline and self-responsibility I bit the bullet and did my best in the given environment. Every child - no matter the ethnicity - has the choice to do the same.

There have been some great points raised in this thread and another I'd like to address is that disillusionment with the Western system is deeply ingrained in black youths. I think it is. I believe there's still a deep-rooted, perhaps subconscious notion among the black communities that this system isn't by them or for them, and that they have to make do and struggle to stay afloat within it. Even if that were the case (and in my experience, we're past the days of effective racism) what better way to combat injustices than to study hard and make an impact. Throwing your toys out of the pram and demanding extra aid is only admitting inferiority and proving the racists right.

I'd really like to see young black people prove to the world what they're capable of and then maybe we can get past all this positive discrimination, PC bullsugar. But then, with regards to the OP, are these cries for help coming from the black community or are they coming from condescending white authorities speaking on behalf of black students?

Originally posted by Cythraul
But then, with regards to the OP, are these cries for help coming from the black community or are they coming from condescending white authorities speaking on behalf of black students?

This seems to be another trendy lefty government think tank type organisation
www.capita-scs.co.uk... who tell the government exactly what they think the government wants to hear - in other words, PC bullplop.

If it were trendy to be supporting bangladeshi kids, then that's what they'd be doing, and you'd be able to substitute the words quite easily.

The problem is, it's very trendy to label every organisation where an ethnic group has problems as "institutionally racist" and in this case it seems a bit much.

The school system is the same for everyone, and other ethnic groups have no trouble doing reasonably well in it.

There ARE societal factors involved, but every group is in the same boat to a greater or lesser degree.

I'll reiterate my point that this kind of report does more to cause racial divides than it does to narrow them.

[edit on 17/4/2008 by budski]

i think its quite easy to explain why this is happening, the majority of Indian families put emphasis on family and academic achievement, they have a strict upbringing where they are expected to do well in school then go on to college and university and get into a good profession. they almost always have both parents, a good standard of life because their parents worked hard in school and got good professions when they were kids, just like they are expected to now and a strong family surrounding. its not just limited to their immediate family but all their aunts/uncles/cousins etc...also as a community the Indian community is very strong.

if you now contrast this with black families, they have in a large amount of cases only one parent, a low income family because of only one parent and lack of education for said parent when they were younger meaning they cant get good employment, usually that parent doesn't even work but gets state benefits, so work ethic isn't ingrained at a young age into the children, they also dont have a strict upbringing with a focus on education and family life like the Indian children do, this is why you see blacks turn to gang culture a lot in the UK (and other places obviously) to substitute family and lead to crime within the community.

basically, i think it centres around the strong family and work ethic that the Indian community has and the black community lacks.

when blacks and Indians came here the Indians set about getting a good education and buying up property and businesses, while the blacks did not, the end result is Indians prospering while the black community stagnates. i think the black community needs to stop blaming others for its faults and start putting a strong focus on family ethic, if a generation grows up with both parents putting focus on work and education then the black community could get out of the rut they are in and start to prosper like the Indian community has.

this is just my opinion formed by living in a majority ethnic area (handsworth, Birmingham) while being white myself, i have many black and Indian friends so im not being harsh on any of them here, its just what i have noticed.

Originally posted by budski


OK, I know this is going to be a touchy subject, but it's something I feel should be discussed.

In the UK, asian kids, particularly those of Indian descent/origin are the highest achievers.
White kids come next,
black kids are at the bottom.

This new report seeks to pin the blame on "institutional racism"
A rather PC phrase frist coined about the London met police, it is now a catch-all phrase to describe anything and everything about problems that ethnic minorities have.

If the school system is so institutionally racist, how come the indian kids are the highest achievers?

I would suggest that this report itself is guilty of racism, by again seeking to divide instead of working together with schools, communities and parents to overcome the problems some ethnic groups allegedly face.

This is yet another example of ethnicity being blamed for something that is simply not true, but according to our government and it's numerous committees, if you don't believe it you are sonehow racist.

What we need to do is find ways to help those who face difficulties in the social or educational sense, regardless of where they come from or their ethnic group.

I say again - IF THE SCHOOL SYSTEM IS SO RACIST, WHY DO THE ASIAN KIDS DO SO WELL.

news.bbc.co.uk
(visit the link for the full news article)

chum you have summed it up so nicely, I commend you.

The people who publish such reports and call for such "action", thrive on the politics of division and dehumanisation, their salaries are based on making racial differences.

AND BINGO BANGO, this mythical "institutional racism" does not prevent Jewish, Chinese and Indian kids from flourishing

People who produce such reports should be dismissed and any "organisations" involved in this race baiting should be disbanded

I agree with thesaints2012.
I am an Indian teenager attending secondary school in London (currently in my GCSE year). I have seen this situation first hand where blacks are not doing as well as other ethnic groups. I am in the top sets for my subjects, and in every one of them I can count the total number of black pupils on one hand. In some cases, e.g my maths class there are no black students at all, whereas nearly half the class is Indian. (My school takes pride in having a very multicultural student population, so there is no possibility of the black students being outnumbered by other groups).

One of the reasons I think that Indian/Asian children are doing better is because of pressure from their parents to succeed. I think this relates to 20 or so years ago when there was a large amount of migrant workers coming in from India (including my parents). A few of these workers invested in their own trades e.g carpentry etc , however the majority ended up working in factories and other manual labour. Because of this past generation I think that the work ethic has been drilled into the current generation, they have seen how their parents have struggled and do not want to experience the same. I can relate to this as I am always told by my parents how I should get a good job so I do not end up struggling like they did. Therefore, I think that this success in Asian children has been set up by the previous generation.

I do not think that the black community has this working ethic. Many of my black friends have admitted to me that their parents are cheating benefit off the government, and they themselves do not really see any moral issues with this. This tells me that when they are older they will also think it is 'ok' to cheat benefits.

Also, I need to add to the comments about the lack of 'learning' that goes on in schools. School is just about passing exams these days. A lot of depends on your ability to memorise the learning criteria. For example, I did not particularly pay attention in science this year and I hadnt really learned much in the classroom, but when it came to my modular exam all I had to do was memorise half my textbook and I ended up with an A*, I didnt even have to understand what I was memorising.

Plus, this 'extra support' would only work if the students are actually willing to use it, from what I have seen most of them are not particularly interested in doing well in school.

Sky,
your smarter than the average bear,,
Do the demographics,,male adult wager earners,,educational level then by ethnic background.
My pointis how is it we owe them more than what is already being done.

Lots of interesting data here. Makes one wonder just how great the human species could be if we took the best traits from each of the races and created one human being. The possibilities are endless.

[edit on 17-4-2008 by ORIPEIA]

Originally posted by thesaints2012


if you now contrast this with black families, they have in a large amount of cases only one parent, a low income family because of only one parent and lack of education for said parent when they were younger meaning they cant get good employment, usually that parent doesn't even work but gets state benefits, so work ethic isn't ingrained at a young age into the children, they also dont have a strict upbringing with a focus on education and family life like the Indian children do, this is why you see blacks turn to gang culture a lot in the UK (and other places obviously) to substitute family and lead to crime within the community.

this is just my opinion formed by living in a majority ethnic area (handsworth, Birmingham) while being white myself, i have many black and Indian friends so im not being harsh on any of them here, its just what i have noticed.

I'd like to see some figures relating to this, because in my experience this is simply not true - it's a sweeping generalization to say that most black kids are from one parent families, although I do agree about the strength of the asian family unit.

I'd also like to say that in birmingham there are just as many asian and white gangs as there are black gangs - in fact if you go to area's like castle vale and chelsmley wood, the gangs are pretty much ALL white and very vicious with it - same for falcon lodge.

I left the second part in because I just wanted to mention that I lived in handsworth myself for a couple of years, and cape hill, aston, bearwood and lea bank (when I was at college - boy, was THAT house a mistake!)

My theory is that areas that have higher population of minorities have less funding in their school system, meaning less proper teaching materials, rather than populations containing a larger Caucasian populations. The high schools within the city have absolutely terrible teaching conditions, in Atlanta, rather than the ones in suburbs that can afford to buy new printed material for their students every year.

And believe it or not, the demographics of Atlanta are high numbers of minorities, while the suburbs are high numbers of Caucasians.

[edit on 17-4-2008 by DJMessiah]

reply to post by DJMessiah


A fair point, but this is in the UK where things work a bit differently, although some area's do need more of a cash injection than others.

reply to post by DJMessiah


Oh there is no doubt about that. The more densely populated white areas pay higher taxes, so for instance, my old high school, we had everything. Cameras in the halls, broadband (when it was still new), ID badges, etc. We had EVERYTHING.

We had a 70" touch screen LCD get put in the lobby, but they never even got it working. That's how much they cared. They had more money than they knew what to do with.

Meanwhile, since that money doesn't get spread, some of the more urban areas don't even have textbooks for all the kids.

A couple of years ago i read a book that studied racial relations in comparison to education and academic success. One of the most interesting observation the book made was that in Japan, Korean minorities or Japanese with Korean blood were stereotyped and often considered "less smart" much like how over here blacks are stereotyped to be less academically smart. However, when it comes to koreans living within the United States, they were exposed to a different stereotype: The stereotype that asians were smart.

The researchers gathered information and statistics of Koreans living in japan, who were exposed to the negative stereotype vs. Koreans in the US who were exposed to the "positive" stereotype. It showed that Koreans in japan scored worst in standard compared to the Koreans in the US who scored above the standard of the relative country. These results were consistent with each society's stereotype.

The book then made varying guesses as to why this is the case. One of them being that media stereotypes have a great impact on people's mind and will have several affects such as: A.) The stereotyped group may subconsciously 'self full fill' the stereotype due to lowering of self confidence and a subconscious belief that they can't do it even if they consciously believe otherwise. And/Or B.) Other people may identify and actively/aggressively stereotype upon the said individuals which further reinforces the negative ideas.

However, one important thing to note is that in the case in Japan, it is harder to distinguish between a Japanese and korean since they are both asians. This is an obvious but important point because this would minimize B in the above scenario. This highlights the affects of negative stereotypes on the own minds of the said people. This means that the majority of Japanese Koreans only faces the stereotype in a passive way. I call it passive because other Japanese will treat the Korean as if he were Japanese because they wouldn't know he was Korean. Only the Japanese Korean would know he was Korean.

On the other hand, in the US, blacks must endure both A and B since it is easy to distinguish between a white, asian or black person. Rather than passively enduring the stereotype, they would also deal with certain people's direct and active stereotyping.... which would probably have a more severe affect.

reply to post by lsatwd


There could be another explanation for the Korean diaspora's varying performances...

The average student in Japan is extremely hard working and intelligent. Japanese work ethic is notoriously hard line. The children dont even have time off school in the evenings because they go to personal tuition classes, often learning up to 12 hours a day.

Is the same true of students in america?

Korean diasporas as groups in Japan fare worse because they are not as intelligent or hardworking as the average japanese kid.

Whereas in America, Koreans are more intelligent and hardworking than the average american kid.

Hence measuring against a mean point in two different countries is meaningless. Its like taking a two men, placing one in harvard and another in papua new guinea... and then saying that the one in papua new guinea is doing better than the one in harvard just because he is above average for that location.

Just because Hitler stereotyped Jews as stupid and backward didnt make them drop their performance... Ashkenazi Jews have the highest average IQ in the world (112) and are largely successful wherever they go.

Blacks are underperforming by their own will/ inability, it has nothing to do with stereotypes influencing their self-perception.

reply to post by lsatwd


Let's not forget the historical enmity between japan and korea, the fact that japanese consider themselves (historically) to be the chosen people of the gods, or the fact that japan is probably the most racist country on earth with an inherent belief in their own superiority.

Originally posted by Skyfloating

My observation is that people who like to move, enjoy themselves and have colourful surroundings... (all signs of intelligence)...

So Circus clowns would perform badly in our school systems? Your logic escapes me on this one.

Besides, Everyone knows that Blacks ALL like to move, enjoy themselves and surround themselves in colorful surroundings. Why attach those characteristics to a whole race?

[edit on 17-4-2008 by pavil]

Question:

Why do white people not try to fight the illusion they live, each and every white person knows exactly why the world has become such a pain in the arse, the last few hundreds years of history could of been better. I'm mixed race but I care nothing for slavery, firstly because I know much about the white slave trade and secondly it's a vague part of history that the whites love to remind us about not knowing there ignorance, I have also noticed intense "jealousy" the white man gets very jealous to see a black man become a success with the ability to pass on his wealth and knowledge to his siblings, I know for a fact most whites do not like being a racist, but the minute you leave your home you will become a zombie and lose all natural control of your thoughts and body language simply because the message of fear in the form of stereotypes has been impaled into your way of thinking, not knowing you are basing your assumptions on others with zero knowledge on the subject at the time, read my last post on this board the statistics are plain so see but you only want to hear one side of the story.

Hmm I wonder where the queen of england got all her diamonds from for the many crowns she has "you guessed it."


[edit on 17-4-2008 by applecrumblemaker]

Asian kids tend do better in school because Asian families push education. At the other end of the spectrum you have families that don't have the same priorities, and the kids of those families don't so as well.

If the parents can't be bothered to help their children focus on their education, another government program is not going to be much help.