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Extra help for black pupils urged

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posted on Apr, 16 2008 @ 01:33 PM
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reply to post by DYepes
 


I think if we do that, then we're also going to have to assume that societal factors, poverty, culture and peer pressure all play major roles < < this list is not exhaustive




posted on Apr, 16 2008 @ 01:35 PM
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In reply to Xmotex,

Native americans, Indians, Chinese, Japanese, Turks, Arabs or whoever else were all subjugated and turned into second class citizens at some point.

Why is it only the black community which does not perform well?

And whose fault is it anyhow?! Endemic self-doubt in a racial group cannot be corrected from the outside. Until blacks get tired of living in ghettos without education, and until they decide to better themselves through education and begin to place a high emphasis on education as the asians do, they will never improve their situation.



posted on Apr, 16 2008 @ 01:35 PM
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To support my point I´ll share something personal.

I work in adult education, meaning I conduct seminars for corporations and businesses.

During my 10 years in this profession Ive come to realize that every culture/race processes information differently. For an asian something different will work than for a white. Blacks require something entirely different in order to process new information.

Add to that: People who are experiencing turmoil in their social life are incapable of learning.

If you´re in a troubled situation you´re not going to sit there and listen to some teacher or instructor.



posted on Apr, 16 2008 @ 01:38 PM
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I can agree with you on SOME levels Sky.



My observation is that people who like to move, enjoy themselves and have colourful surroundings... (all signs of intelligence)...


This is absolutely ... stupid. (I am starting with what I disagree) 1. There is no evidence that says people who like to move, scream, thrash uncontrollably and so forth are "more intelligence". For the most part, from my observations in school is it = ignorance.

However..

I will agree that the school system is a failure, however again to this there are more then one side.. First, you are implying that as a majority of Blacks need to learn in a very specific way, and that the school system especially fails them. That makes no sense, race wise intelligence does not differ, at least imo, so if they are so smart they should be excelling over the other kids.

I to failed out of the school system because it "wasn't my thing" so to speak. I learn in a different way, and several of my friends where the same, and they where a mix of races.. there are those who will drop out because they already know the material, self educate, or find the rigid structure of school to be unbearable.. for me it was already knowing the material and hating teachers and the entire structure of school.

However, I never failed a test, and excelled in all standardized testing. The majority of kids at my school, including the majority of all the blacks, failed the tests.. easy, easy test, and it does not matter how smart you think you are, or how you learn, everyone should be able to pass them, yet so many did not.

So I propose that the REAL problem is a social problem.. the black community is so self impaired with self superiority, cultural fixations, and exploiting the race problems of a past generation to excuse the problems of today. They do not put attention to education like Asian, Hispanics and White families, and they do not reward or commend black intellectual achievers. It is not just blacks, its a general problem in both America and Britain, however I feel blacks are effected the most.

Blacks learn no differently then any other race, their culture may hold them back, and as much as I despise standardized testing, it is their personality and priorities that hold them, and many kids of other races back.

[edit on 4/16/2008 by Rockpuck]



posted on Apr, 16 2008 @ 01:41 PM
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Originally posted by Skyfloating
To support my point I´ll share something personal.

I work in adult education, meaning I conduct seminars for corporations and businesses.

During my 10 years in this profession Ive come to realize that every culture/race processes information differently. For an asian something different will work than for a white. Blacks require something entirely different in order to process new information.

Add to that: People who are experiencing turmoil in their social life are incapable of learning.

If you´re in a troubled situation you´re not going to sit there and listen to some teacher or instructor.


Sky, I refer you to the earlier post I made regarding the Indians who came here under genocide perpetrated against them by Idi Amin in Uganda, who then knuckled down in the education system and became successful. Social turbulence doesnt adversely limit capability.

An interesting point you put forth there about different races processing information differently. I do often find this myself when working in a team project. I love the fact that people of different races have such different angles of approach. I find that the chinese approach things methodically and numerically, the indians approach the issue scientifically, whites approach the problem from an innovative attitude.

Highly contraversial suggestion:

But if this is the case that blacks are incompatible with schooling systems which are adequate for other racial groups, would that justify segregation of blacks into separate schools where their needs can be better met?



posted on Apr, 16 2008 @ 01:44 PM
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reply to post by 44soulslayer
 





But if this is the case that blacks are incompatible with schooling systems which are adequate for other racial groups, would that justify segregation of blacks into separate schools where their needs can be better met?


Exactly what I was thinking. And since its a scientific fact that the school systems favor a Woman's learning ability and disregard a man's learning ability.. so we should all have racially and sexually segregatted schools!

(I do support sexually segregatted schools though)



posted on Apr, 16 2008 @ 01:49 PM
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Well, what we all three agree upon is that different races/sexes require different approaches. Maybe seperate schools would be good. Not in the spirit of "segregation" but with the label of "accomodating to ones uniqueness"...sorry for sounding so PC


And we also agree that the current school system sucks.

And I think we also agree that focus on "passing exams" (gathering information) is of less value than focus on thinking-ability.



posted on Apr, 16 2008 @ 01:59 PM
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I can't comment a whole lot about the education system in the UK but I can tell you the public school I attended here in the USA sucked. Especially in the areas where our country is lacking... math and science, the textbooks are extremely dry!

I can remember the first time I read Michio Kaku's Hyperspace (many years ago) and thinking, "Why didn't they have us read a book like this in high school physics?" Most people will never even need to know simple formulas like F=MA in their adult lives. Why bore them to death, completely turn them off to the subject, and then send them home with a "bad grade" (as if they're dumb or defective)?

Making sweeping changes to our educational systems would help everyone, blacks included.



posted on Apr, 16 2008 @ 02:01 PM
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reply to post by Skyfloating
 


I personally do NOT agree that races process information differently, else you are saying we are all different on intellectual capabilities.. and I can assure you, segregating schools in this fashion would only ignite the "blacks are less evolved" stimula.. which would only cause real racism to flare.

In the end, we are all different, we come from different cultures, different pasts, different ethnic identities and so forth, the school system I agree is narrow minded and closed, it does not celebrate the differences of humanity and instead opperate as social daycares for the ignorant youth, and prisons for the intellectual minded..



posted on Apr, 16 2008 @ 02:10 PM
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Originally posted by Rockpuck


Blacks learn no differently then any other race, their culture may hold them back, and as much as I despise standardized testing, it is their personality and priorities that hold them, and many kids of other races back.

[edit on 4/16/2008 by Rockpuck]


What exactly is "Their" personality?



posted on Apr, 16 2008 @ 02:13 PM
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Originally posted by Skyfloating
Well, what we all three agree upon is that different races/sexes require different approaches. Maybe seperate schools would be good. Not in the spirit of "segregation" but with the label of "accomodating to ones uniqueness"...sorry for sounding so PC


And we also agree that the current school system sucks.

And I think we also agree that focus on "passing exams" (gathering information) is of less value than focus on thinking-ability.





I feel its more about location and uprbringing more than it is Race.
These tests should focus on the neighborhoods/households of the participants to gain a better understanding of what causes the higher/lower results.



posted on Apr, 16 2008 @ 02:24 PM
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It also highlights the high exclusion rate among black pupils and how many more are classed as having emotional and behavioural difficulties


There are numerous arguments as to why black children worldwide do considerably worse than children of other ethnicities.

Poverty?
According to the "Journal of Blacks in Higher Education" (Source):

But there is a major flaw in the thesis that income differences explain the racial gap. Consider these three observable facts from The College Board's 2005 data on the SAT:

• Whites from families with incomes of less than $10,000 had a mean SAT score of 993. This is 129 points higher than the national mean for all blacks.

• Whites from families with incomes below $10,000 had a mean SAT test score that was 61 points higher than blacks whose families had incomes of between $80,000 and $100,000.

• Blacks from families with incomes of more than $100,000 had a mean SAT score that was 85 points below the mean score for whites from all income levels, 139 points below the mean score of whites from families at the same income level, and 10 points below the average score of white students from families whose income was less than $10,000.



It urges head teachers to debate and challenge how institutional racism has an impact on the attainment of black pupils.


Maybe, just maybe - the fault is within the black community?

Just like the fact that the recent Sub-Prime Loans scandal, and it's largely adverse effects on "minorities", was the end-result of certain 'black leaders' watering down the 'strict and racist' loan laws, maybe this is something the black community in Britain must solve on it's own, without the usual cry of "Institutional/Systematic Racism!" and subsequent government shakedowns.



posted on Apr, 16 2008 @ 02:35 PM
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Originally posted by Rockpuck

I personally do NOT agree that races process information differently, else you are saying we are all different on intellectual capabilities.. and I can assure you, segregating schools in this fashion would only ignite the "blacks are less evolved" stimula.. which would only cause real racism to flare.

In the end, we are all different, we come from different cultures, different pasts, different ethnic identities and so forth, the school system I agree is narrow minded and closed, it does not celebrate the differences of humanity and instead opperate as social daycares for the ignorant youth, and prisons for the intellectual minded..


Well, they DO process information differently. This is many years of working in adult education speaking.

But by "differently" I dont mean worse or more stupid.

With the rest of your post I agree, especially with the "celebrating our differences" part which is of primary importance on a global level.

Point of the matter is:

Give me a black guy who was labelled as "unable to learn" and I´ll turn him into an A-student within weeks.

Bold and arrogant claim? No. Just understanding the background.



posted on Apr, 16 2008 @ 02:41 PM
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Originally posted by Skyfloating


Give me a black guy who was labelled as "unable to learn" and I´ll turn him into an A-student within weeks.



You weren't perchance trained by jesuits were you sky?


"Give me the boy aged 5 and I'll give you the man"

Back on topic - this is quite an in depth and fascinating subject and I'm sure there are many reasons for the anomolies.

I also know that ALL humans have different learning styles from my time as a trainer (running training courses for managers) and that these styles can be just as easily applied to kids as adults.

The question is, HOW do we integrate these styles into school curriculums, and is it even feasible?

Maybe that's why we have the learn by rote system...



posted on Apr, 16 2008 @ 02:55 PM
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Originally posted by budski

The question is, HOW do we integrate these styles into school curriculums, and is it even feasible?

Maybe that's why we have the learn by rote system...


Imo, before adressing various cultures, races, genders our first care should be to adress our education system in general.

The entire ATS-website is a gathering of people who are discontent with our education system. Hence alternative education.

The fact that your opening post article even adresses the blacks issue that way shows that we havent set our priorities straight.

First they set up a poor education system and then complain because so many fail.

And those who dont fail...those who get "good grades"...how do they ultimately do in life? Is becoming a corporate slave-yea-sayer "success"?




posted on Apr, 16 2008 @ 03:14 PM
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reply to post by Skyfloating
 


It's down to our programming - I don't think there's much doubt about that.

I also think that many of our members have or are attempting to, de-bug the programming.

I also think that the attitude towards alternative lifestyles in general reveals much about HOW people are programmed and conditioned.

If success is measured in monetary terms, it makes for a very cruel world.

I myself however, measure "success" according to where I stand in maslows hierarchy of needs - my goal is self actualisation, but in a stricter sense than used in maslows model here
in that my goal of self actualisation does not conform to the business theory/personnel model or indeed Herzbergs model/theory of satisfiers/dissatisfiers.

In this, I suspect I am not unique amongst ATS members - but I suspect ATS members may be a rather unique group.

Maslow Thread


[edit on 16/4/2008 by budski]



posted on Apr, 16 2008 @ 03:17 PM
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reply to post by budski
 


There you go.


Maslows Pyramid would be one of the first things I introduce to a school class. Not "You gotta memorize all this otherwise you fail!"

[edit on 16-4-2008 by Skyfloating]



posted on Apr, 16 2008 @ 03:24 PM
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reply to post by Skyfloating
 


Let's not forget other bad aspects about modern education, like the PC "inclusion" theory, which has seen competetive sports banned in some places, and where streaming is now seen as a bad thing, with the current buzz being "teach at the pace of the slowest pupil"

Well, I'm sorry, but if we do that, we fail our children, our countries, and our childrens futures.

When I went to school, we were streamed in "sets" according to ability - sadly it seems this is no longer the case in many schools, instead it's "repeat after me" until they are 16, then sent onto a vocational training course that means little, if anything.



posted on Apr, 16 2008 @ 03:41 PM
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reply to post by budski
 


Wow. Reminds me of the type of communism in which all the able and smart guys progress was stifled. They call that "inclusion", eh?



posted on Apr, 16 2008 @ 03:47 PM
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reply to post by Skyfloating
 


Yep, these are some of the problems:

No child ever gives a wrong answer

Discipline is wrong

Competition is wrong

This has resulted in a variety of social factors which have come home to roost over the last few years, with teachers leaving the profession in droves because kids who can't be disciplined can't be controlled.
Attacks on teachers became commonplace as well.

This in turn has led to a belief amongst some of the younger generation that the world somehow owes them a living, because they have never had to work for anything - the PC brigade wanted to hand them everything on a silver platter.

Natural high achievers will always find a way to achieve - sadly that's not the case for others.

BTW - to avoid confusion, there are different types of inclusion in the PC world. This is probably the worst of them - others have done good things.



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