The Evangelist Conspiracy against Self Determination

Concerning Homosexuality, I know for a fact that it's a choice, I've had homosexual friends that found Christ and went streight, so there ya go.

reply to post by jimmyjackblack

---

Why are you using an example of someone who chose to be heterosexual as evidence that homosexuality is a choice? Now if you're trying to make the case that both are totally elective, could you tell us when you sat down and decided, "you know, I think I like girls more than boys"?

Or, boys more than girls, depending on your gender, I suppose

TheColdDragon,

Fundamentalists are all about choice. For themselves. They want to make your choices for you, because in their minds, only they truly understand what god wants. And if god wants you to hand your daughter over to the good reverent, or drink from the big bucket of kool-aid in Guyana, well, by god...

One of my friends that went strieght (I have several homosexual friends), found Christ and DECIDED to go strieght. The bible says it's a sin, and for good reasons. There are many men I love, but I'd never make a baby with them, marrige is more than a ceremony, when you have sex you are marrying that person (two becoming one and creating a new life). My friend was not forced or pressured into becoming strieght. He felt the Holy Spirit telling him it was wrong and he soon found a love for women he never had before. People are not born gay, it is a choice, a choice like everything else, I'm a virgin by choice, I may choose to live a life without marrige or sex, not because I can't get a girl, but because I choose a different way. we all make choices, the world tells you one thing, but the Holy Spirit tells you another. I have a small bitterness problem with women, I've had my heart stepped on too many times, but just because I've been mistreated by women a lot doesn't mean that I should do the same to them, it takes a lot for me to love women (or being kind to them and being there friend and caring about them), but I choose to do the right thing, the easy thing would be to harbor hate in my heart the rest of my life. Homosexuality results in death, men are made to love women, when I was a boy a lot of people in my family (not my mom or dad though) told me that I was gay because I din't like any girls, I actually started to think this at one time, but realized that I do like girls, however if I kept believeing this then I may have eventually became gay (some of my family members still think I'm gay cause I'm not banging anything in a skirt). Some children are sexually abused by the same sex and that somehow messes with there mind and they end up being gay, there are many reasons why they become gay, just like there are many reasons why people join cults, mostly cause they want a family or want to be excepted by somebody. I don't hate homosexuals and I don't have any Christian friends that hate them. I treat them like I treat everyone else, with love. Bottom line, the Bible says it's wrong and that's what I believe and I am intitled to that, I have many valid reasons why I know it's wrong. I have male friends that I love, but not in a romantic way.

-Jimmy

reply to post by TheColdDragon

---

Allthough I don't completely understand what you are saying (I guess I'm not use to your terminology) I agree that people should be excepted in a church no matter what they're into. Some Christians struggle with homosexual tendancies, they don't want to be a homosexual, but it's been such a big part of there life that it's become a stuggle for them to end it. It's kinda like smoking, smoking's not good for ya and it's adictive, some people think smoking is just fine, but others think it's wrong (and seriously it is, it kills your body and others), but when they try to quit, it becomes a big trouble for some, some don't have any problem with it.
Jesus said doctors heal the sick, not the well, so He comes to save the sinners, not the saved. We're all humans and should be loved no matter what we are into. Are people born pedophiles? Some people say they are, so should we except and condone there sin? No, but we should love them and try to show them a better way.

-Jimmy

reply to post by jimmyjackblack

---

Well, the trouble is, for at least some of those people, trying to "go straight" is going to be about as successful as if I were going to try to "go white." It's just something that can't be helped, and even if society has a problem with it, tough cookies, it's the way you're made.

But if someone wants to force themselves straight (or bleach their skin, I suppose) well, they're free to deal with their neuroses as they see fit - none of my business, really, any more than if they didn't. But it's still a sad thing to see.

reply to post by TheWalkingFox

---

But how do you know that they're born that way? Is it because scientists (which get it wrong all the time) or society says so? Science says that some people are born pedophiles and born serial killers, so should we say that what they're doing is ok? pedophiles loves children the way normal people love a spouse, but it doesn't make it right. Same goes for homosexuality, we have it driven into our heads these days that it's ok and normal, when before it was considered a mental desease, I don't believe it's a mental desease, but I do believe it's not right, but if they wanna live that way, they have the right to, but i have the right to not agree with what they believe, but it seems this country is trying to slowly take those rights away.

reply to post by TheWalkingFox


Why is it sad? If someone makes a choice, and through their choice, becomes happier than they were before, it would seem to be a good thing.

I think you are unconsciously subscribing to the idea that change outside a particular agenda is bad, but change into that same agenda is good. That, I believe, is the basic argument the OP is speaking against, only from a different perspective. What makes one happiest, not wealthy or powerful or influential, is the goal. True happiness (IMHO) can never come from intolerance, immorality (to one's own morality), selfishness, money, greed, or hate. It comes from within, from realizing that you are truly contented with your life and not worried about the consequences of your actions.

Now should someone be forced by society to accept a way of life that does not make them happy, that I would see as sad... perhaps that was the impression you got. I took it another way, that the person was happy with his choice. It will soon become evident whether or not this is the case, as forced changes which are not pleasurable are usually short-lived.

I agree with the OP, mostly wholeheartedly, I simply see the issue as not being confined to the area of Christianity, or even to the area of religion. I see it rather as being a problem with humanity.

TheRedneck

reply to post by jimmyjackblack

---

You see, there's this thing called 'consent,' Jimmy.

And feel free to "disagree" with their being gay. I'm sure there's plenty of other people who treasure their right to disagree with your being half-Mexican. Hell, I know there's plenty who disagree with my being half-native. Of course, most people have a different word than "disagreement" for this sort of thing.

As for how I know at least some gay people are born that way, I happen to be a gay person's older brother. Now, you say you have gay friends, cool, but I don't suppose you've known any of them since five hours after they were born? It's pretty easy to theorize and assume about other people when all you know about them is that they're attracted to people you find unattractive, I suppose - but it's a pretty different perspective when you see a kid grow up right under your nose like that.

Redneck,

If it makes them happy, that's one thing. But as you mentioned, a lot of these people go this route because they are pressured to do so. How can you measure how happy they are, in such a case?

"He's so happy now that he's gone straight and married that nice girl" certainly is rather meaningless, if while he was gay, the people saying this were the ones leading the charge, attacking and insulting him, calling him godless, a threat to society, equating him to serial killers, pedophiles, and rapists, and laughing when their own children beat him senseless in the gym.

Which brings us back to the original point about people wanting to remove any semblance of choice from us, by hammering us with their own religious / moral sledgehammers.

reply to post by TheWalkingFox
I would judge their happiness by its longevity. As I stated, a lifestyle change that 'benefits' only those who would pressure the change will not last.

I will bow to your observations on your brother. I obviously have no way to understand the situation as you do. I do, however know a few homosexuals who have situations in their past that could have very well 'turned' them gay. I know others who have no such indicators. Perhaps it could be different for different people?



Hmmm... agreed. Is this what you have experienced with your brother?

You truly have my sympathy, if that means anything to you at all. I have seen these things happen, and it is a horrible way to treat any human. Actually, I should say, your brother has my sympathy. I hope he never has to endure anything like that again.

These people who tormented him were not Christians. Oh, they could call themselves that, but I could call myself black and it wouldn't change the color of my skin. Jesus, God, or any church rightfully ordained and following Jesus' example did not hurt your brother... arrogant, evil, self-righteous people did.

Peace to you and yours, my friend.

TheRedneck

Good, thoughtful post Dragon.
That means you won't get many replies, so let me say kudos for presenting your view with reason and respect.

reply to post by TheRedneck

---

Sister, actually. Yeah, they make gay people in "female" these days, what will they think of next?

As for them not being Christians... Right. And the Klan isn't white. It certainly seems, whenever a Christian does something dumb, the rest of you are awfully quick to trot out "But he's not a real Christian!" - the message from this is, of course, Christians are flawless, and people who have some sort of failing are "not really Christians."

Sorry, bud, but these chicks were Christians. I'll concede that maybe they weren't terribly good at being Christians, sure. But they are definitely Christian. I'd actually be reluctant to call them bad Christians, considering what the majority of Christian opinion is regarding homosexuality, what the many Christian leaders say on the subject of homosexuality, and the numerous calls to kill homosexuals found in the Bible.

I mean look, we have a guy, Jimmy there, and don't get me wrong, I consider him a bright guy, good poster... but he seems pretty adamant about his right to be "against" someone's sexuality. Now sure, he can go right ahead, freedom of speech and all, but, why even worry about something so trival? He probably isn't too concerned about his right to disagree with people who put ketchup on their eggs, so what makes sexuality such a big deal?

Also as I noted on another thread... In the West at least, there's no real need or desire for Christians to act in a Christly manner. In modern Christianity, the only concern of a believer is keeping their own butts out of hell. And to achieve this, all they have to do is believe they've been saved. It's a lazy, selfish philosophy that doesn't at all resemble anything Jesus ever taught about how to conduct oneself.

TCD,

Well, thing is, a lot of what you mentioned ties in to the homosexuality angle - and homosexuality is a little easier to grasp, since it's talking about people, rather than abstracts.

What in particular ties into homosexuality? Sex education and the pro-life angle. Fundamentalist outlooks on all three subjects ties into control over and subjugation of women.

Take a moment and look at some of these pro-life outfits. You see lots of condemnation of abortion. Do you see them running adoption services? Maternity care? Do they offer contraceptives, prophylactics, or other methods of birth control? Do they have a charity to put money towards delivery and postnatal care of a child and its mother? No, on all counts. Hopefully some poster will show me one or two that actually do some, or even all of this, but I have never seen it.

What you do see, is an amazing amount of guilt, blame, stereotypes, and condemnation towards the mother in question. She is a slut, a whore. There's repeated statements from the pro-life side of things that the women in question need to "Accept responsibility for their actions." That "sex is dangerous, and she took a risk!"

Add it all up here. There is no care for the mother or her child if she keeps it, only bile and aggression if she doesn't. To these people, sex is a crime, and pregnancy is the divine punishment for that crime. A baby is not a life, it is a burden, a curse from god as punishment for immoral behavior, something that the woman should not be allowed to "evade" through abortion.

This is also why they oppose any sex education beyond "just say no!"-style abstinence. Decent sex education stresses the use of protection and contraceptives as a means of preventing disease and unwanted pregnancies. You would think that a pro-life organization would be all for fewer unwanted children, and thus, fewer abortions. But again - pregnancy and disease are not biological conditions. They are messages from god that you have sinned.

The goal of all this, of course, is to strip any sort of power over their own bodies from women. It may seem rather droll to say today, but in the context of history, women being able - and allowed! - to enjoy the same sexual freedoms as men is absolutely revolutionary. It's quite probably one of the largest gains towards equality of the sexes possible. And... the fundies don't want sexual equality. They're threatened by hte thought of women being on equal footing as men in the sexual arena, becuase to them, women are there solely for the pleasure of men.

So where does homosexuality come into the picture? As I just pointed out, the Fundamentalist movement is very sexist and chauvanist. Where do gay men fall in the order of things here? They are less than women, to the fundie mindset. They're essentially "sex traitors" and deserve to be punished most severely. For the longest time, these "Christians" did not give a damn about the men languishing in hospitals from HIV AIDS. They saw - and still see! - it as a positive thing, the wrath of god coming to put these "men" into their place, or wipe them out trying.

Great thread. Regarding the OP, I've always felt that monotheism demotes self determination - partly in the ways already mentioned, but overall, in the sense that 'you need not do anything because God has a plan'. You need not fight injustices because 'God has a plan', you need not better yourself because 'God made you what you are and we're all born sinners anyway' etc etc.

And in extreme cases, this results in people praying for God to save someone's life instead of saving it themselves.

Be your own god.