Freemasonry doesnt worship Lucifer?

These words are taken out of Rosicrucian teachings and Lucifer seems to be put on a high throne here much like Jesus.


Nevertheless, the Lucifer Spirits are aiding in the process of evolution.
From them we received the iron which alone makes it possible to live in an
oxygenated atmosphere. They have been, and are, agitators for material
progress, and we have no right to anathematize them. The Bible distinctly
forbids us to revile the gods. Jude states that not even the archangel
Michael dared revile Lucifer, and in the Book of Job the latter is spoken of.

Anybody is welcome to come forth and provide commentary.

Rosicrucians and freemasons are not related in any way. I think your topic title should read Rosicrucians and not freemasons.

With regards to the text, where exactly does this come from? What is your source? It is difficult to discuss something that is not in context...

Originally posted by Saurus
Rosicrucians and freemasons are not related in any way. I think your topic title should read Rosicrucians and not freemasons.

I would disagree that there is no relation between Rosicrucianism and Freemasonry. On the other hand, nothing that TSB quoted in his original post has anything to do with real Rosicrucianism, or Freemasonry for that matter. They are certainly *not* "taken from Rosicrucian teachings".

And no, Max Heindel was not a Rosicrucian (or a Mason).



[edit on 15-4-2008 by Masonic Light]

Perhaps I should clarify my statement...

I am certain that Rosicrucians played a large role in the origins of Freemasonry.

I also believe that the roles of the two have almost reversed over the past 400 or so years. Originally, I believe that Freemasons were keepers of esoteric knowledge, and that Rosicrucians historically were more interested in social matters. Today, it is the Rosicrucians who explore esotericism, whereas the Freemasons are almost primarily concerned with morals and ethics.

The historical connection is most certainly there, but today, I don't believe that there is any real tangible connection.

However, it is absolutely incorrect to use the words Rosicrucians and Freemasons interchangably as the author of this thread has done.

[edit on 15/4/2008 by Saurus]

OP is posting something that is blatantly false.

It's almost as if he's saying that Satanists worship Satan.

Originally posted by Masonic Light

Originally posted by Saurus
Rosicrucians and freemasons are not related in any way. I think your topic title should read Rosicrucians and not freemasons.

I would disagree that there is no relation between Rosicrucianism and Freemasonry.


[edit on 15-4-2008 by Masonic Light]

Hmm that is funny ML, you normally tell the truth, there are no CURRENT relations between the 2 organizations you say?
Or did i missunderstand something?

Oh and to the OP, no neither freemasons nor any of the secret societies like the order of the rose etc. worships lucifer in the sense you understand lucifer and worship anyways.






[edit on 15-4-2008 by Tetragrammaton]

Tetragrammaton, I think ML was disagreeing with me...

Of course, there is the Rosicrucian Society of Freemasons (SRIA), and elements of Rosicrucianism in some of the higher degrees, but the Rosicrucian Order as such, and Freemasonry as a Society are not related, as far as I am aware. These links are limited to those Masons who wish to be involved in Rosicrucian studies, and vice versa.

I, as a Mason, cannot simply join the Rosicrucians because I'm a Mason. I would have to go through all the usual petitions etc etc. Similarly, a Rosicrucian is not automatically admitted to Masonry.

A Rosicrucian is not entitled to any Masonic secrets, neither is a Mason entitled to Rosicrucian knowledge.

In the context of this thread, these two societies as entities are not related.

Originally posted by Tetragrammaton


Hmm that is funny ML, you normally tell the truth, there are no CURRENT relations between the 2 organizations you say?
Or did i missunderstand something?

The problem is that there are all sorts of very different organizations calling themselves "Rosicrucians" out there, and then topsecretbomb and his ilk want to come along and paint them with the same brush, so that they can confuse people.

There was a strong Rosicrucian influence on original Freemasonry. This is evidenced by a poem published in London in the late 1600's which links Masonry to the Rose Croix even before the first Grand Lodge was founded.

But the problem with topsecretbomb's comment is that it is deceptive. The only authentic Rosicrucian documents are the Fama, the Confessio, and the Chymical Wedding.

Topsecretbomb quoted the writings of Max Heindel, a non-Mason who made up his own organization and called it "Rosicrucian", and then tried to use the quote to somehow implicate Freemasons in Lucifer worship, which of course, neither Masons nor Rosicrucians do.

I think the "Freemasons worship Lucifer" is disinfo spread by the true evil.

"Satanic ritual is a blend of Gnostic, Cabalistic, Hermetic, and Masonic elements..."
so you see Satanism is an unoriginal, fanatical group of people that use everyone else's stuff as their own.

Two points:

1). Rosicrucianism is more of a philosophy than an organization.
2). I don't even believe in the Christian "Lucifer," so why would I worship him (it?)? That makes no sense.

Originally posted by Masonic Light


There was a strong Rosicrucian influence on original Freemasonry. This is evidenced by a poem published in London in the late 1600's which links Masonry to the Rose Croix even before the first Grand Lodge was founded.

I know the poem of which you speak. "We have the Masons Word" they say.
Thin gravy IMHO. Just because the Grand Lodge was not formed didn't mean there were no lodges in existence. As you well know there is written evidence of Masonry going back to the 1500's and the Regius poem goes back to c. 1390

If they had our "Word" they most likely got it from us and we have influenced them seeing as how they probably came into existence between 1607 and 1616.

Read "Early Masonic Pamphlets" published by the Quatuor Coronati Lodge and it might give you a different perspective.

Before this thread gets derailed! Let me confirm that they are texts taken from Max Heindel and he is a Rosicrucian himself. However I cannot confirm whether or not Masonic Lights comments about him having his own branch of "Rosicrucianism" is another offshore "wannabe" breed. Lets look into more texts taken from Heindel!

As the white light changes color according to the angle of refraction, so
also the viewpoint of the spirit changes with the sex of its vesture; but as
the spirit alternates between male and female embodiments, we may readily
balance the scales and take the path that most appeals to us, or combine the
best path in both. Our later lessons will point the path, but we may say
now that He who said, "I am the true Light," is at the end of the
path--Lucifer and Jehovah alike are but stepping-stones on THE WAY TO TRUTH
AND LIFE.

Here we see them considering the fact that Lucifer himself grants knowledge and truth through his own path just like that of Jesus. Here we are again putting him side to side next to Jesus when we clearly learned in scripture that he never had an eternal seat of dwelling in Heaven. Did God know Lucifer would turn on him before hand? Afterall, he is all knowing.. Right??

[edit on 16-4-2008 by topsecretombomb]

reply to post by topsecretombomb


You're thinking inside the box of the New Testament, and worse, modern translations of how it is to be applied. Luciferian principles are not necessarily synonymous with your concept of some sort of "devil worship."



[edit on 4/16/0808 by jackinthebox]

Originally posted by RWPBR


I know the poem of which you speak. "We have the Masons Word" they say.
Thin gravy IMHO. Just because the Grand Lodge was not formed didn't mean there were no lodges in existence. As you well know there is written evidence of Masonry going back to the 1500's and the Regius poem goes back to c. 1390

Very true, but the fact that the poem predates 1717 is very telling. It shows a Masonic-Rosicrucian connection before the fraternity was established in its modern form. The obvious question would be, in the 1600's, why would the "Brethren of the Rosy Cross" have the Mason's Word? And even if they didn't, why would someone make that claim before the formal establishment of the speculative fraternity?

If they had our "Word" they most likely got it from us and we have influenced them seeing as how they probably came into existence between 1607 and 1616.

It is my theory that the Rosicrucians themselves are responsible for speculative Masonry. It is worth noting that the elusive Rosicrucian fraternity, whomever they really were, disappeared at about the same time that modern Freemasonry was formed. While this could have of course been coincidence, it is also very possible that they changed names, and began calling themselves Freemasons. There are different strains of evidence, but here's just a few points:

1. The aforementioned poem claims the Rosicrucians had the Masons Word. At the very least it would seem to indicate that they had become Freemasons.

2. One of the first known speculative Masons was Elias Ashmole. Ashmole was very learned in the occult sciences, owned a huge esoteric library, and wrote frequent Rosicrucian apologetics.

3. The degree of Rose Croix began to be worked in some continental Lodges even before the Master Mason degree was instituted.

4. The Royal Order of Scotland also appears to predate the degree of Master Mason. Both degrees in the ROS are Rosicrucian.

Read "Early Masonic Pamphlets" published by the Quatuor Coronati Lodge and it might give you a different perspective.

One should also study A.C.F. Jackson's "Rose Croix: The History of the Ancient and Accepted Rite in England and Wales." Brother Jackson is a Past Master of Quatuor Coronati, and agrees with my basic conclusions.

Originally posted by topsecretombomb
Let me confirm that they are texts taken from Max Heindel and he is a Rosicrucian himself. However I cannot confirm whether or not Masonic Lights comments about him having his own branch of "Rosicrucianism" is another offshore "wannabe" breed.

To begin with, regardless of supposed Rosicrucianism, you titled this thread concerning "freemasonry worshiping Lucifer". Since Heindel was never a Freemason, nor really said anything about Freemasonry, I stand by my statement that you were being deceptive.

Now, concerning Heindel in Rosicrucianism:

The highly evolved entity that visited Heindel eventually identified himself as an Elder Brother of the Rosicrucian Order, an Order in the inner worlds formed in the year 1313 and having no direct connection to physical organizations which call themselves by this name.

Link

Here, we see that Heindel was never accepted into a Rosicrucian Fellowship. Instead, he claimed that some sort of spirit being gave him the authority to be a "Rosicrucians", which had nothing to do with the actual Rosicrucian Fraternity, which is composed of men and women of flesh and blood, and not ghosts.

Lets look into more texts taken from Heindel!

You may study Heindel's writings until your heart is content, and I say Godspeed to you. Personally, I found him obscure, archaic, and just downright boring. But since Heindel has nothing to do with either Freemasonry or genuine Rosicrucianism, and since he was never a member of any secret society and didn't say anything about them in the quote you gave, I'm confused as to why this thread is on the "Secret Societies" forum.

reply to post by topsecretombomb


Lucifer didn't turn on anyone. That is a mistranslation that goes back to the translation of The Word from Greek to Latin. If anyone including old philosophers speak of "The Devil" the mistake is that his name has been and always was "Satan- The Advasary." Lucifer is the ancient name for Venus. If you look to the sky just before dawn or at dusk you can see Venus all lit up. Before it was know that it was the same object in the sky at night it was called Venus aka "Evening Star" and at dawn Lucifer The Mourning Star. The Latin word Lucifer actualy means "Light Bearer" and is said to also mean "Bringer of False Light" by some, I can't say for sure about that little tid bit (Bringer of False Light) so don't try to argue it. Take it for what it's worth.

Here is where the translation and the whole lore of "Lucifer" came into being. This is an internet passage that I got from a link on Wikipedia and I'll give you yet another and then you'll see how painfully obvious this really is.
Hebrew Bible. Isaiah 14:12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O day-star, son of the mourning! How art thou cut down to the ground, that didst cast lots over the nations!

As you can see they referance "day-star."

My next referance comes from my Hebrew, Greek, and English Interlinear Bible. I'm not going to say the copyright info for obvious reasons.

From the Hebrew text, Isaiah 14:12 O shining star, son of the morning, how you have fallen from the heavens! You weakening the nations, you are cut down to the ground.

Also no mention of "Lucifer" but there are many to the effect of "mourning star and day-star" which the Romans would translate to??? "Lucifer- Mourning Star in Latin, you see.

As to the whole idea of the person mentioned being Satan,

(Hebrew Text) Isaiah 14:16 They that see you shall stare and closely watch you, saying, Is this the MAN who made the Earth tremble, shaking Kingdoms, .

I didn't put all the verses in because I just want to show you that they are talking about a Man not a "Fallen Angel" mosty likely a Babylonian or Assyrian King. Both enemies of Israel and Judea. Prob. Merodach-Baladan, Sargon,or Sargon's successor Sennacherib.

Here are some other bits of info that will help a bit, Devil from the Greek (Diabolos)=Slanderer, Satan from the Hebrew (Ha-Satan)= The Accuser. It is traditionaly thought that the Devil is more of a little brotherof sorts that trys to show GOD that we are not worthy.

In any event this whole Lucifer thing is an embellishment from Dante and a mistranslation. I think that it is in reality a matter of philosophy to tell you the truth. When you hear philosophers speak of Lucifer they are talking about a hidden Gnosis as it was known in the past..... Check it out for yourselves don't take my word for it. I just wanted to show you the truth go and "see" the truth for yourself. It's in The Bible Look in the Old Hebrew Text.
So, i would say that first of all besides Pike I haven't read any Masonic Lit. that talks about "Lucifer." And even if you want to go that route, Pike nor the Rosicrucian order could do so either, at least in the manner in which you speak.
[edit on 16-4-2008 by lazy1981]

[edit on 16-4-2008 by lazy1981]

O, is there no one left in ATS land that will give my thoughts validation? Please! It's lonely and ungratifying thus far! I hate being so right!

Originally posted by Saurus
Tetragrammaton, I think ML was disagreeing with me...

Of course, there is the Rosicrucian Society of Freemasons (SRIA), and elements of Rosicrucianism in some of the higher degrees, but the Rosicrucian Order as such, and Freemasonry as a Society are not related, as far as I am aware. These links are limited to those Masons who wish to be involved in Rosicrucian studies, and vice versa.

I, as a Mason, cannot simply join the Rosicrucians because I'm a Mason. I would have to go through all the usual petitions etc etc. Similarly, a Rosicrucian is not automatically admitted to Masonry.

A Rosicrucian is not entitled to any Masonic secrets, neither is a Mason entitled to Rosicrucian knowledge.

In the context of this thread, these two societies as entities are not related.

What about Hugh McCurdy and Knights Templars of Freemasonry? Aren't they associated with Freemasonry?