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The Real Aushwitz

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posted on Apr, 13 2008 @ 01:22 PM
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They deny it because the hearts of these people are racist against Jews or something. I find it funny that one poster went out of their way to get angry because the Jews are always thinking of themselves in terms of the Holocaust. While it is true that there were millions of other people that were not Jews that were killed, the Jews were targeted even before Hitler came to power. Its no wonder that the Jews are worried that they are about to be snuffed out, because they damn near were 70 years ago.




posted on Apr, 13 2008 @ 01:43 PM
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Originally posted by EliThebrave
Well there is a lot of good information here, people have been doing thier research. However, there is something in particular people i think are failing to mention. A lot of the jewish animosity goes back towards the end of WW1- actually ZIONIST.


Good point.

The way I see it, the ultimate cause of WWII was WWI.

And WWI was fueled by slow communication, pettiness and rivalry among Europe's noble ruling class, and a tangle of national treaties that was like a domino effect! Sparked by the assassination of an Archduke and his wife who NO ONE liked - including his own family!


Long story short, the war ended and the British and Germans met to formally end the war. The Zionists stepped in and asked for thier end of the bargain to be granted. The Germans sitting right there, saw this... and were pissed! Who wouldnt be. "why have our own citizens that weve given refuge to from russia sell us out like this." After the war- we all know how Germany was forced to pay MASSIVE reparations. Well, justified in my opinion, they left some of the burden of the reparations on the shoulders of the wealthy backstabbing Zionists who caused them to lose the war.


The Versailles treaty was NOT fair to Germany! And the leader who had stirred up so much trouble and made a bad name for his country was DEAD!
Everyone got to keep and maintain sufficient defense for their country EXCEPT Germany! They were basically sitting ducks in a big pond of HATE.
They signed the treaty at GUNPOINT.

It had nothing to do with Balfour and the other treaty, at that time! The UN decided to go with the SECOND treaty rather than the FIRST following WWII because everyone felt sorry that the Jews had no where to live! They lived in Germany before that - and were allowed to be Jews including the fact that Germany had TWO national flags until the war!
The Swastika AND the Star of David.


The Zionists however, as we all know, do not like to pay for thier crimes or serve any kind of punishment.


I don't think that is a fair statement at all!
What we can say, and support with FACTS, is the 2,000 years between Jerusalem's destruction and 1948, the Jews were repeatedly expelled from every country they lived in! I have around 70 documented occurrences of this in my files!
Were they hated so much? I don't think they were ever hated. The complaints against them were economic. They would settle in a country and set up their businesses and sell their wares and services to their Gentile fellow-citizens. But when they spent their own money on the same goods and services, they ONLY went to fellow Jews.
That is a deadly drain on a national economy!


Another interesting fact about the holocaust however, it was only NON ETHNIC jews apparently that were rounded up to the camps.


What is a 'non-ethnic' Jew? One is a Jew if they practice Judaism. It is NOT an ethnic designation. Ask a Jew and they will tell you. Not that they didn't still keep mostly to themselves, but ANYONE can become a Jew and once you convert, you are a Jew the same as if you had been born a Jew.


Dont think that in any way am i trying to justify the actions of what took place in those camps, however i do agree with some, that we are being lied to about what really went on in those camps. And how it got there.


With all due respect, you aren't helping the situation at all! I don't think you are lying or misleading anyone purposely, but your information is put together rather dramatically!

Pretty wild! And truly entertaining. But this is a documentary!


How can we say who FELT what emotion unless they wrote it down THEN for us to read NOW?
What are your sources?
Just the one?



posted on Apr, 13 2008 @ 01:46 PM
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Originally posted by grover
BLAH BLAH BLAH....

... you holocaust deniers always ignore the testimonies of both the survivors and the rank and file troops who liberated the camps.


To call someone a holocaust denier is pretty serious! Not everywhere but in some places it could result in indefinite incarceration without trial or court proceedings! Germany is one of those places!
WATCH WHAT YOU SAY.
Please.


I will admit that I am a definer!
I zealously seek precision in language!

What does HOLOCAUST really mean?
1. Great destruction resulting in the extensive loss of life, especially by fire.
2. A sacrificial offering that is consumed entirely by flames.


I seek the truth about what REALLY happened in WWII.
I have said, over and over, that the HOLOCAUST was actually the ENTIRE war, itself!

I'd like to see everyone less mythology and a lot more willingness to share the load of both the pain and the responsibility! I'd like to see the world healed by the truth.
Closure.
Then we could all move ahead into an technological age beyond our wildest dreams!
IN PEACE!

This IS TRUTH:

56 MILLION PEOPLE DIED.

6 million of those did NOT matter more than the other 50 million.
And NOT less, either.
EQUALLY.

56 MILLION!!!


So...who do YOU know that fought the war or died in the war?
We ALL have family histories which bear the scars of the HOLOCAUST!



posted on Apr, 13 2008 @ 02:01 PM
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Originally posted by DisInfo
They deny it because the hearts of these people are racist against Jews or something.


So....is it racist to devalue the lives of every other human being who is NOT Jewish?

Is it worse to kill Jews than Catholics or Atheists?
Are Jews more valuable than Japanese or Italians?

I think the problem with race is not DENIAL! It is self-denial!


I find it funny that one poster went out of their way to get angry because the Jews are always thinking of themselves in terms of the Holocaust.


Well....why don't the Jews cry over us the rest of us?
What about all the men who died to liberate the Jews?
Why don't they cry over their saviors? To still claim to be victimized over it is to count those lives as given in vain!
Their persecutors are also ALL long DEAD!

Japan victimized China for years...and then attacked the US without provocation!
We are friends, now, but were we not victims, too, for a time?
What about the poor Germans who got stuck on the east side of Berlin when Stalin came into town?
They didn't get free of THAT until 1989!
They were victims, too!


While it is true that there were millions of other people that were not Jews that were killed, the Jews were targeted even before Hitler came to power.


6 million vs 50 million

That's a pretty small target!

When a particular group of people are considered SPECIAL for any reason whatsoever, in their own eyes as well as their neighbors, they also become the SCAPEGOATS.
To be singled out is the same, whether it be for GOOD or BAD.
Can you see the simple but undeniable logic in that?

Every soul is equally important!
When we feel persecuted, it is probably because we aren't doing our part as friends and neighbors!

WE ALL REAP WHAT WE SOW.


Its no wonder that the Jews are worried that they are about to be snuffed out, because they damn near were 70 years ago.


Oh heck - we have ALL been trying to snuff the Jews out ever since Titus burned the temple in Palestine! So to speak!

Now we don't dare - not anyone - they are THE nuclear SUPERPOWER in this world, my friend! No one is ever going to bully them again, I assure you.



posted on Apr, 13 2008 @ 02:04 PM
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Originally posted by queenannie38
The way I see it, the ultimate cause of WWII was WWI.

And WWI was fueled by slow communication, pettiness and rivalry among Europe's noble ruling class, and a tangle of national treaties that was like a domino effect! Sparked by the assassination of an Archduke and his wife who NO ONE liked - including his own family!


I appreciate your rationale but there was much, much more to it than that and it had very little to do with the nobility, they were merely investors in the process. The assassination of Franz Ferdinand is wholly insignificant until viewed alongside the announcement by the US of a policy of supporting self-determination combined with Britain's fear of losing trade hegemony, of Standard Oils incursion into Europe and the East and so on and so forth. Trade and economics were the cheif reasons for both wars. By the installation the Danzig Free-state in the Versailles Treaty, and thus dividing Prussia the second world war was ensured and an absolute inevitability.

I recommend that you read the works of Professor Karl Haushofer if you want to understand how Axis and Allied geopolitical policy aided in the creation of the persecution of the Jews in Germany.



posted on Apr, 13 2008 @ 02:18 PM
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I have actually met a survivor and his wife. He showed me the number they tattooed on his arm, and told me a bit about it. The subject came up because he was a rabbi who I was meeting with to discuss religious topics, and I brought up Martin Luther. Needless to say, he did not think to highly of Martin Luther after what he had been through.



posted on Apr, 13 2008 @ 03:02 PM
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Originally posted by KilgoreTrout
Why would Churchill write of the Holocaust?


Because he was the only one left! And he had talked out of both sides of his mouth during the whole ordeal! So he worked hard to get his version established as HISTORICAL FACT. He had to cover up the things that he did with Hitler's atrocities! QUICKLY.

So now...the consensus view of the world is that Britain and the US were heroes that saved the world from Hitler's desire to RULE IT ALL.
Hitler NEVER said he wanted to rule the world! At least not that anyone recorded or wrote down
His goal was to lead Germany into a good life after WWI. He desired that Germans would live free of debt, fear, and hunger; he wanted them to have happy family lives and be satisfied in their work.

This I know because that is what his speeches were about for the first 5 years.

But what's wrong with that? He was a German! He was their savior and the people loved him! The old people who still are living today still hide their little rooms, their Hitler-candy shrines, from the younger generations. They STILL love Hitler but cannot say so!
Germany recovered from WWI splendidly long before anyone else could hope to! Germany, to this day, is a lovely, well-ordered and efficiently run country!
EVERYONE should have just left Germany alone and worked on their own national recovery!
But instead jealousy got the best of Churchill and Stalin caught the Imperialism bug.
The US had NO BUSINESS, whatsoever, in the WAR IN EUROPE! We had a fight in the Pacific. Which we won. And we also fought Churchill's war in Europe. As well as financed it!


Why would Eisenhower? Or de Gaulle? None of them witnessed it first hand.


Surely you jest!
Eisenhower didn't witness the war first-hand? Perhaps you made a mistake?
DeGaulle was there, too.


Is it just Auschwitz that you have a problem with, or is it just the Jews?


I have a problem with opinions being considered as facts - not because my own opinion is different but because when I started to investigate, I discovered that our so-called modern HISTORY (at least most of it during those years) is actually MYTHOLOGY. What we know of Alexander the Great and even the Spartans and Persians is far more accurate than what we BELIEVE took place within the last century!


Do you deny the massacre at Lidice? Or Ordane-sur-Glane? Are they more probable in your mind because they do not include Jewish victims?


What about Saipan and Guam and Iwo Jima?
What about Ira Hayes?
Alejandro Ruiz? ( a local hero )
What about my own dad?
The war against the Japanese was the war that was ours to fight - the US of A!
Did you know that D-Day was not just in France?
Have you heard of the 27th infantry?


Perhaps you could explain what exactly it is about the Jewish experience that you have a problem with. Why do you think that is untrue when set against a period when race and nationalism were the means by which all lived and died?


We still do. Imperialism is no longer a problem and nationalism only causes problems when we try to take it beyond our own boundaries! What was wrong with Germany wanting to be proud of their country and to prosper and be happy? Why was it bad to be a Nazi? It was't a problem for anyone INSIDE of Germany....only those who were outside looking in!


The Germans were not unique.


Sure they are. So are Americans. And Italians. etc. Each country has strengths and weaknesses just as individuals do. The Germans EXCEL at technology! As well as efficiency! They always have and probably always will.

Part of what makes America what it is, originated in Hitler's Germany.
Such as safe and fair workplaces which do not exploit children or women.
Breast self-exams to prevent cancer.
Our highway system.
Our success in the race to the moon.
'Black box' technology to investigate public transportation disasters.


That way you can develop an opinion of your own instead of prostituting yourself to theirs.


I no longer have an opinion about any of it. I found out what happened and realized opinions are useless in history.
BUT yet...history IS OPINION. At least what we are taught in school is. And that isn't an opinion. It is what I found out when I looked FOR MYSELF.

I don't think YOU have investigated on your own!

If you had, then surely you would have known who had commanded the troops of the US and France!

You made NO reference to the other HALF of the war which was NOT in Europe - there were TWO main theaters in WWII: European & Pacific, plus a minor one in North Africa.



posted on Apr, 13 2008 @ 04:36 PM
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post removed for serious violation of ATS Terms & Conditions



posted on Apr, 13 2008 @ 04:43 PM
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Originally posted by non-Jew
reply to post by ZeroKnowledge
 


In answer to your question about where are all the Jews -- I think they're all living in the St. Louis area. Please get them out of here - they're multiplying by the numbers -- I guess making up for those they lost. I find it interesting that the Jews never talk about anyone else being lost in the Holocaust - like 3 million Christians. Typical Jew thought - think only about themselves. Blaim it on their parents.


I dont know why this hasnt been thought of before. I think we should really be rounding up all the Jews in the United States and do something about them cockroaches. We should find a place that no one wants to live. I dont know, how about somewhere in the middle of the Mojave? We can have the Army round them all up while the Corps of Engineers builds 'relocation facilities' for them to live. Once we have all the Jeeewwwws and their sympathizers rounded up, we should run experiments to sterilize them so they cannot infect the country again. When sterilization takes too long, we should just use them for target practice. Yea, seems totally worthwhile to me.....

Get a clue. Its attitudes like yours that promotes hatred and racism.



posted on Apr, 13 2008 @ 05:24 PM
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Originally posted by non-Jew
Jews have a tendency to set themselves apart from everyone else.


That's a pretty unreliable observation. For all you know, 90% of the Jewish people don't do that, but you just don't notice them because they aren't acting any different from everyone else.

I know several jews who don't do anything that fits common stereotypes. I know none who do closely fit the stereotypes.


why is it that I've never met a poor Jew?

Either you're not meeting enough jews or you're not meeting enough poor people. I know lots of poor people because I'm one myself, so meeting poor jews is just sort of a given in my life- in fact I couldn't say that I really know any rich Jews. I am aware of several, but we're strangers to eachother.


Last comment: Get over the Holocaust and get on with life!! We Christians don't go on and on about it. So get over it!!!

In my experience, Christians love a good martyrdom story as much as any other religious group.

In short, there are sides of this issue that your own limited life experience has not shown you, and for you to make judgements on the limited information and experience that you do have is arrogant to say the least. In the bigger picture, everything you know could easily be wrong.



posted on Apr, 13 2008 @ 06:07 PM
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reply to post by queenannie38
 


As a total layman (however with a decent knowledge of chemistry) - i declare that an area does not have to be sealed to poison/kill people with cyanide gas (HCN). As a proof - it being a chemical weapon ,stockpiled in US and USSR before more efficient gases were made.
I fail to see how chemical reactions are connected to concentration. Concentration is amount of stuff per media - weight per weight, weight per volume and ctr. So more of stuff (gas) in this case you add- higher its concentration. Not everything will diffuse straight away in the building. And it is the same with different gases that kill through inhalation. Doses are different, optimum conditions are different - but if enough is dispersed in such an amounts to hold lethal concentrations for several minutes - it will kill, even at open. No need for chemical reactions. :-)
If you are afraid to operate with "heavy" chemical definitions/reactions/whatever - i assure you that i can handle it.
If you will be so kind and explain why it will not work, i will be thankfully.

As for declaration of WW2 (which is here for- ?) - i always assumed that declaration of war on Poland (by Nazi Germany) is the official date of WW2.
I hope that since no chemistry is involved, you will be so kind and explain what it got to do with anything.

As for deadly dose of cyanide, i do not (gladly) have any personal knowledge. But since it was (is?) used in execution chambers in US - data has to be known.
www.idiom.com...

However we do agree on a certain issue - Stalin earned a lot from ww2.



posted on Apr, 13 2008 @ 06:48 PM
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Originally posted by DisInfo
They deny it because the hearts of these people are racist against Jews or something.


You know, I really, really hate that kind of statement. It is fallacious & completely devoid of any form of intellectual reasoning.

The notion that questioning whether some event in history occured or not, no matter how strongly you may feel about it, does not make the person asking the question a racist - the mere suggestion of racism is nothing more than a lazy & unqualified attempt to discredit & blacken the name of the person that it is aimed at.

The simple truth, whether you choose to accept it or not, is that no one really knows whether the holocaust occured or not, unless you personally were there.

Documents claiming to show x or y are merely CLAIMING to show the truth, you either accept them at face value - not usually a wise thing to do, or you dismiss them - not necessarily a wise thing either.

The truth is that you can easily see that it might be desirable for the Allies to claim, falsley, that the holocaust happened in order to ensure the total destruction of Nazism, & so it is possible that that is what happened.

Similarly, it could be the case that the holocaust did happen & that the documents portray the true facts.

I can never understand why, in the light of other examples of our governments lying to us, that people will just take claims at face value without thinking. We were not the squeaky clean "good guys" that some of us seem to think.

We firebombed cities full of civilians - not military targets - & killed Hundreds of Thousands of women & children in the process, much like we've bombed & killed tens of thousands of Iraqis in the process of bringing them "freedom."

Its a strange kind of democracy & freedom that comes at the end of a gun.

We could have done things differently in WW2 & Iraq without targetting civilians, the fact that we didn't shows how little regard WE have for Human life, & in that light I don't think that telling a few porkies about what the "bad guys" were up to is altogether unlikely.

I'm still not saying it didn't happen though, I don't know because I wasn't there.

[edit on 13-4-2008 by Power_Semi]



posted on Apr, 13 2008 @ 07:00 PM
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reply to post by EliThebrave
 


That is one of the most brilliant posts I've ever read. I feel it is worthy of it's own topic. So many people just don't get this one common sense idea. Why did so many of the germans hate the jews to such an extent. It isn't just because. Either you can beleive that the jews are an evil vampiric race like the poster non-jew claims. Or you can look at an organization that just so happens to be from jewish roots giving the rest at the time a very bad name. Zionists apparently pissed off many germans but more importantly the zionists betrayed the germans and backed them into what the germans truly thought was a feast or famine situation. And that makes more sense than "they were just scape goats." crap. Realy they were just scape goats with no dirt on them, and the whole nation bought into it?
Not saying the jews had it coming just wondering how an entire nation got together so efficiently, that it gave the entire world a run for their money.



posted on Apr, 13 2008 @ 07:25 PM
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Originally posted by Power_Semi

Originally posted by DisInfo
They deny it because the hearts of these people are racist against Jews or something.


You know, I really, really hate that kind of statement. It is fallacious & completely devoid of any form of intellectual reasoning.


I have met several people that hate Jews and speak of it openly. Hell, my own grandmother claims she can 'jew' people all the time. It might not be openly, but there are plenty of people that are anti-semitic. Just the way it is.

Originally posted by Power_Semi
The notion that questioning whether some event in history occured or not, no matter how strongly you may feel about it, does not make the person asking the question a racist - the mere suggestion of racism is nothing more than a lazy & unqualified attempt to discredit & blacken the name of the person that it is aimed at.

The simple truth, whether you choose to accept it or not, is that no one really knows whether the holocaust occured or not, unless you personally were there.


Okay, so lets get this straight:
Because I wasnt there personally, the Holocaust didnt happen? Really? Lets see how that logic works on other events.
Because I wasnt there personally, two nuclear bombs were not dropped on Japan. Those Japanese must be making that up, since I wasnt there.
Because I wasnt there personally, JFK and Lincoln were not really assasinated. Hell, they probably didnt even exist in the first place.
Because I wasnt there personally, the Chinese arent really in Tibet.

The list goes on. Your suggesting that if a person wasnt a personal witness on an event in history, that they cant claim it happened or didnt happen. Your arguement is circular and not logical. Though there are few survivors, liberators, or Nazis left that had direct knowledge of the Holocaust, I doubt they would say it never happened. The mass graves all over Poland suggest otherwise.

Originally posted by Power_Semi
Documents claiming to show x or y are merely CLAIMING to show the truth, you either accept them at face value - not usually a wise thing to do, or you dismiss them - not necessarily a wise thing either.

The truth is that you can easily see that it might be desirable for the Allies to claim, falsley, that the holocaust happened in order to ensure the total destruction of Nazism, & so it is possible that that is what happened.


Even in the off chance that is true, what is wrong with wiping out Nazism? It clearly wasnt right for the German people, and the German government knows it, thus outlawing everything Nazi.

Originally posted by Power_Semi
We firebombed cities full of civilians - not military targets -


Bombing and targeting in WWII was largely guesswork. Dropping thosands of tons of bombs to eliminate one factory wasnt uncommon, and was pretty much the only way things worked. The fact that targets were in close proximity to civilian areas is tragic. The military planners at the time deemed it worth the price. If you have a problem with this, dig up Eisenhower and discuss it with him.
As far as us wiping out civilians in Iraq and in modern war, that also is tragic. However the difference is huge. Smart bombs were designed to be so much more effective than carpet bombing, and is. The amount of civilian deaths now is a minimum. The virtues of the Iraq war is for a different thread, and a purposeful deflection on your part. Nice try.

Originally posted by Power_Semi
I'm still not saying it didn't happen though, I don't know because I wasn't there.

YOU werent there, so it couldnt have happened. Exactly. Wonder what these people thought:




posted on Apr, 13 2008 @ 07:35 PM
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Originally posted by Zealott
That is one of the most brilliant posts I've ever read. I feel it is worthy of it's own topic. So many people just don't get this one common sense idea. Why did so many of the germans hate the jews to such an extent.


Back to this. One of crowning achievements in post-WWI Germany and later Nazi Germany was its ability to peg the Jews for Germany being involved in the war in the first place, and ultimately its loss. Maybe it was the fact that Germany saw the writing on the wall when the Americans entered the war. The introduction of tanks, airplanes, and protected Atlantic convoys couldnt have been the reason at all. Damn them Jews for making Germany surrender. Germany surrendered to prevent an occupation.

Originally posted by Zealott
It isn't just because. Either you can beleive that the jews are an evil vampiric race like the poster non-jew claims. Or you can look at an organization that just so happens to be from jewish roots giving the rest at the time a very bad name.

I know you cant possibly be serious. Well, I guess you can be. So your comparing the Jewish people with vampires and leeches? Why, because some poster suggested the Jews cooked up an idea to involve the Americans and make Germany lose the war? Good luck with that one.

Originally posted by Zealott
Not saying the jews had it coming

Thats exactly what your buddy non-jew was suggesting in his post, if you bothered to read it carefully. He thought they should be rounded up from St Louis and moved elsewhere. Trail of Tears all over again if you and he had your way.



posted on Apr, 13 2008 @ 07:40 PM
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Okay, so lets get this straight:
Because I wasnt there personally, the Holocaust didnt happen? Really? Lets see how that logic works on other events.
Because I wasnt there personally, two nuclear bombs were not dropped on Japan. Those Japanese must be making that up, since I wasnt there.
Because I wasnt there personally, JFK and Lincoln were not really assasinated. Hell, they probably didnt even exist in the first place.
Because I wasnt there personally, the Chinese arent really in Tibet.


That isn't what I said, I said you can't really know if it happened or not if you weren't there, I didn't say that it definitely didn't happen.

You either deliberately misrepresent what I said or you don't understand.

Also, with regards to dropping bombs in WW2 - you know damned well where you're dropping firebombs when you're over a major city. They are designed to burn & destroy buildings, & inevitably that involved killing everyone who is there.

To try & excuse that just highlights my point - some people just have it in their heads that we're the "good guys" & therefore everything that we do is justified by one means or another, whilst any claims aimed at the "bad guys" must be true & they are inexcusable..



posted on Apr, 13 2008 @ 07:49 PM
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Originally posted by queenannie38

Originally posted by KilgoreTrout
Why would Churchill write of the Holocaust?


Because he was the only one left! And he had talked out of both sides of his mouth during the whole ordeal! So he worked hard to get his version established as HISTORICAL FACT. He had to cover up the things that he did with Hitler's atrocities! QUICKLY.


The only one left from what
In fact what does any of this mean, I would be grateful if you could expand whatever point it is that you are failing to make here.

On a side note there is a very famous quote by Churchill, where he states that history will be kind to him, because he intended to write it. Indeed he did and indeed it was. He was by no means a man without tremendous ego.


Originally posted by queenannie38
So now...the consensus view of the world is that Britain and the US were heroes that saved the world from Hitler's desire to RULE IT ALL.
Hitler NEVER said he wanted to rule the world! At least not that anyone recorded or wrote down
His goal was to lead Germany into a good life after WWI. He desired that Germans would live free of debt, fear, and hunger; he wanted them to have happy family lives and be satisfied in their work.


I have never claimed that Hitler wished to rule the world, probably because I don't believe that he did. However, if his goal was simply to lead his people to a life free of debt, fear and hunger etc etc, why for one, did he engineer the invasion of Poland which only took his country into war?


Originally posted by queenannie38
This I know because that is what his speeches were about for the first 5 years.


Like this one from 1921 you mean


For us there are only two possiblities: either we remain German or we come under the thumb of the Jews. This latter must not occur; even if we are small, we are a force. A well-organized group can conquer a strong enemy. If you stick close together and keep bringing in new people, we will be victorious over the Jews.


Or this one from 1922


The Jew has not grown poorer: he gradually gets bloated, and, if you don't believe me, I would ask you to go to one of our health-resorts; there you will find two sorts of visitors: the German who goes there, perhaps for the first time for a long while, to breathe a little fresh air and to recover his health, and the Jew who goes there to lose his fat. And if you go out to our mountains, whom do you find there in fine brand-new yellow boots with splendid rucksacks in which there is generally nothing that would really be of any use? And why are they there? They go up to the hotel, usually no further than the train can take them: where the train stops, they stop too. And then they sit about somewhere within a mile from the hotel, like blow-flies round a corpse.


Or this from 1923


Could the Freemasons perhaps stop the war? - this most noble of philanthropic institutions who foretold the good fortune of the people louder than anyone and who at the same time was the principal leader in promoting the war. Who, after all, are the Freemasons? You have to distinguish two grades. To the lower grade in Germany belong the ordinary citizens who through the claptrap which is served up to them can feel themselves to be 'somebodies,' but the responsible authorities are those many-sided folk who can stand any climate, those 300 Rathenaus who all know each other, who guide the history of the world over the heads of Kings and Presidents, those who will undertake any office without scruples, who know how brutally to enslave all peoples - once more the Jews!


www.hitler.org...

Yes Hitler wanted to regenerate Germany but at what expense. Is it okay that some prosper while others suffer persecution, starvation and murder? Do you agree with his logic, that to scapegoat an entire people or organisation is the ends that justify the means? I hope that you will clarify exactly what your point is because you have lost me.


Originally posted by queenannie38
But what's wrong with that? He was a German! He was their savior and the people loved him! The old people who still are living today still hide their little rooms, their Hitler-candy shrines, from the younger generations. They STILL love Hitler but cannot say so!


Actually he was Austrian, but there you go.

I have watched Triumph of the Will a number of times, simply because it is a brilliant piece of film making, it is easy to see why the Nazis and Hitler swept the public along with them. Of course it does not detract from the fact that they gained power by the use of brutal force and subterfuge. When the SA and many of the more Socialist elements of the party had served their purpose they too were annihilated in the Roehm purge. Thanks to the brilliance of Goebbels the public at large were largely ignorant to this information and therefore cannot be blamed for their blind love IMO.

Hitler was discovered, shaped and formed to lead Germany. He was not their saviour but he was packaged to look like it and may have actually believed in it himself. Either way there was nothing spontaneous about Hitler, he had to gift of oration and could hold his audience in the palm of his hand, it is this alone that endeared him to his sponsors and ‘entourage’ of sycophants.


Originally posted by queenannie38
Germany recovered from WWI splendidly long before anyone else could hope to! Germany, to this day, is a lovely, well-ordered and efficiently run country!
EVERYONE should have just left Germany alone and worked on their own national recovery!


Yes it is amazing what you can do with millions in overseas investment isn’t it? If only Poland had been so lucky. If everyone had left Germany alone, particularly their US and British investors we wouldn’t be having this discussion. And of course, the US’s own economic recovery from the depression went hand in hand with it’s investments in Germany.


Originally posted by queenannie38
But instead jealousy got the best of Churchill and Stalin caught the Imperialism bug.
The US had NO BUSINESS, whatsoever, in the WAR IN EUROPE! We had a fight in the Pacific. Which we won. And we also fought Churchill's war in Europe. As well as financed it!


Absolutely, a master stroke by Churchill, he is quoted as saying that Britain could not win a war in Europe but it could win a world war. All he had to do was get the US to join on his side. Not an easy task of course when much of the US wanted to join the Germans against us…they had all those factories that they’d built and investments they’d made after all. Churchill already had the support of Roosevelt, who was champing on the bit to get involved, the Comintern was played to full effect. The problem was the financiers and industrialist, but in the end the US business community was convinced of the benefits of uniting with Britain. How you may ask…Churchill asked his daughter-in-law to seduce Averell Harrimann. Skilled courtesan that she was, the desired effect was soon accomplished.


Originally posted by queenannie38

Why would Eisenhower? Or de Gaulle? None of them witnessed it first hand.


Surely you jest!
Eisenhower didn't witness the war first-hand? Perhaps you made a mistake?
DeGaulle was there, too.


Bless, you really did get your knickers in a twist with this one didn’t you. We’re talking about the holocaust dear (in a round about way)…if you re-read my post you will see that I was referring to the fact that they didn’t witness the holocaust…okay?


Originally posted by queenannie38

Is it just Auschwitz that you have a problem with, or is it just the Jews?


I have a problem with opinions being considered as facts - not because my own opinion is different but because when I started to investigate, I discovered that our so-called modern HISTORY (at least most of it during those years) is actually MYTHOLOGY. What we know of Alexander the Great and even the Spartans and Persians is far more accurate than what we BELIEVE took place within the last century!


I was addressing this post to the OP who obviously does have an opinion. If you don’t I am not sure why you have bothered commenting. I don’t believe anything, I gather together information and I form an opinion. If you think that the history of the second world war is incomplete then you are damn right it is. In the UK there are files that will not be released until 2045…why? I have no idea, information like that does not get leaked in this country, but I’m damn sure I’ll be waiting when it is released.


Originally posted by queenannie38

Do you deny the massacre at Lidice? Or Ordane-sur-Glane? Are they more probable in your mind because they do not include Jewish victims?


What about Saipan and Guam and Iwo Jima?
What about Ira Hayes?
Alejandro Ruiz? ( a local hero )
What about my own dad?
The war against the Japanese was the war that was ours to fight - the US of A!
Did you know that D-Day was not just in France?
Have you heard of the 27th infantry?


Once again you seem to have missed the point or perhaps I have, did the Germans commit atrocities at Guam and Iwo Jima? The point I was making is that the Germans had a demonstratable pattern of behaviour which involved rounding up civilians, shooting the men and boys, and deporting the women or alternatively of just shooting them all. The two instances that I cited were actions by the Waffen SS against civilians in reprisal for in the case of Lidice the assassination of Heydrich and in the other for Partisan/Resistance activities. I was simply wondering if the OP believed that if the Germans were capable of these atrocities why they were not capable of the atrocities against the Jews.

If you want to start a thread on the war in the Pacific please do so…


Originally posted by queenannie38

Perhaps you could explain what exactly it is about the Jewish experience that you have a problem with. Why do you think that is untrue when set against a period when race and nationalism were the means by which all lived and died?


We still do. Imperialism is no longer a problem and nationalism only causes problems when we try to take it beyond our own boundaries! What was wrong with Germany wanting to be proud of their country and to prosper and be happy? Why was it bad to be a Nazi? It was't a problem for anyone INSIDE of Germany....only those who were outside looking in!


Once again Bless! You have heard of Generalplan Ost haven’t you? You do know that they planned to starve 30 million Russian civilians to death in the name of Lebensraum (another word for Empire you’ll find)…you do know that they annexed surrounding countries like Austria and Bohemia before any hostilities had begun. I think your glasses are a veering past rose tinted and into the blinkers!!!


Originally posted by queenannie38

The Germans were not unique.

Sure they are. So are Americans. And Italians. etc. Each country has strengths and weaknesses just as individuals do. The Germans EXCEL at technology! As well as efficiency! They always have and probably always will.


Okay again, shall I spell this out…the Germans are not unique at committing atrocities and genocides…clear enough for ya! Incidently, all that technology that the Nazis Germans had, mostly supplied and stolen from the US…..


Originally posted by queenannie38
Part of what makes America what it is, originated in Hitler's Germany.
Such as safe and fair workplaces which do not exploit children or women.
Breast self-exams to prevent cancer.
Our highway system.
Our success in the race to the moon.
'Black box' technology to investigate public transportation disasters.


Not to mention the commiting of war crimes, the Tiger Force used in Vietnam I believe learnt a great deal for the Nazis, and obviously the industrialists were allowed to reclaim the technology that was ‘stolen’ from them. The US were also able to debrief the doctors who carried out extensive research into cancer within the concentration camp system. It is amazing what medicine can accomplish when the life of your test subject means nothing.


Originally posted by queenannie38

That way you can develop an opinion of your own instead of prostituting yourself to theirs.

I no longer have an opinion about any of it. I found out what happened and realized opinions are useless in history.
BUT yet...history IS OPINION. At least what we are taught in school is. And that isn't an opinion. It is what I found out when I looked FOR MYSELF.



I don't think YOU have investigated on your own!

Yes your knowledge of the holocaust in the Pacific is astounding, thanks for sharing.


Originally posted by queenannie38
If you had, then surely you would have known who had commanded the troops of the US and France!


I think I have already covered this. I will take pains to go into greater detail so that it is a bit easier for you to understand in future.


Originally posted by queenannie38
You made NO reference to the other HALF of the war which was NOT in Europe - there were TWO main theaters in WWII: European & Pacific, plus a minor one in North Africa.


I think you’ll find the North Africa one was a major one, if not in terms of man-power certainly in terms of strategy and the reason why Churchill felt compelled to lead Hitler into opening two fronts and attacking Russia. Either way, hardly relevant to the OP.



posted on Apr, 13 2008 @ 07:58 PM
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reply to post by DisInfo
 


Either you can beleive the jews are evil or! OR!!!!!! OR!!! get it through your head I do not beleive jews are vampiric. I was using that statement as a dumb alternitive to a reasonable one. Zionists gave the jews a bad name.
Didn't read the rest of your post past the part where you started calling me a racist. Just wanted to clear that part up for you.



posted on Apr, 13 2008 @ 07:59 PM
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Originally posted by Power_Semi
That isn't what I said, I said you can't really know if it happened or not if you weren't there, I didn't say that it definitely didn't happen.

You either deliberately misrepresent what I said or you don't understand.


I didnt misrepresent. Anyone can logically deduct what you were suggesting by READING your post, unless you changed it.

Originally posted by Power_Semi
Also, with regards to dropping bombs in WW2 - you know damned well where you're dropping firebombs when you're over a major city. They are designed to burn & destroy buildings, & inevitably that involved killing everyone who is there.

To try & excuse that just highlights my point - some people just have it in their heads that we're the "good guys" & therefore everything that we do is justified by one means or another, whilst any claims aimed at the "bad guys" must be true & they are inexcusable..


I know damned well where I dropped the firebombs? I never dropped a firebomb in my life. Im sure it would be an experience I wouldnt have forgotten.

In any event, are you aware who invented firebombing? It was the German Luftwaffe. They used it extensivly during the Battle of Britain and purposely targeted civilian centers. Afterwords, the USAAF primarily engaged in firebombing in Japan. Hey, most of Tokyo being burned the to ground is proof of that, even if I wasnt there to see it.

The USAAF did a number in Dresden, I will admit, but the use of firebombing in Europe was only engaged in when the conditions were too cloudy to use precision bombing as the tactic of the American air crews of the time were trained.

But again, back to your premise: how can I be sure the US firebombed anywhere if you were not there?



posted on Apr, 13 2008 @ 08:14 PM
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reply to post by non-Jew
 


My God... Deny Ignorance must be the one thing this member never read when joining this site. Were many many other people tortured, killed, murdered? yes. But were any of them targeted as brutally and systematically by the Nazi regime as the Jews were? No.

The Jewish population suffered a great loss during this war, and died in the most inhuman and dispicable ways. That is why the "Holocaust" is associated with mainly the Jewish population. O, and in every single piece of information I have ever read about the Holocaust mentions the deaths of the gypsies, christians, mentally handicaped as well as the jews.

And Judiasims is a religion and a culture. Which is why their holidays are recognized in the USA. If you believe in Judaism your a Jew. If you are from Isreal, you are a Jew.

Hate Mongers are so funny



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