Let's talk about Browns gas (HHO)

Originally posted by Anonymous ATS

The gas created through this process is 66.6% Hydrogen and 33.3% Oxygen. I don't think you included the Oxygen in your figure.

I did include it.

Originally posted by Anonymous ATS

Furthermore, whether or not it's "worth it" relies not so much on if there is a better way to get the energy, but rather the fact that the fuel source (water) is readily available and ultimately free, since no one can stop the rain yet.

I was talking more about the cost of assembling an electrolytic cell. If you've got the materials spare, by all means go ahead and build one, but it may be cheaper to just buy 3 lightbulbs and pay for the extra electricity.

Originally posted by Anonymous ATS

I'm thinking about it this way: a gas powered electric generator can run on browns gas. The generator produces enough power for an electrolysis type HHO generator to produce enough gas to run on with power to spare.

If you're implying that a generator connected to a electrolytic cell can be self sufficient indefinitely, then you'd be wrong.

As I stated in a previous post, the energy that can be extracted by burning the gas will be less than the energy needed to split the water in the first place.

Originally posted by Anonymous ATS

The people who have built cars that run only on HHO average about 25 miles per OUNCE of water. That is about 3200 mpg of water. so even if it was 2000 mpg, or 1000!!! so what if you needed 100 alternators to power it like some people think (but you dont) and you had them attached to your wheels with belts and all the way down your driveshaft and 15 all over your motor and the drag reduced it to 1 mpg of water...

Please tell me you're not using Stanley Meyer as an example. The man was nothing more than a confidence artist.

I'm not sure what you mean about the alternators, but I've seen people all over the internet claiming you can tap into the extra power the alternator generates. An alternator generates power proportional to the load that is imposed on it. That is, if you hook up an electrolytic cell to your car's electrical system, you will see an increase in fuel consumption. Don't believe me? Go and drive your car with the A/C on high, you'll notice the engine is more sluggish due to the mechanical load the alternator creates to fulfill the electrical demand of the A/C compressor.

That's all from me.

Originally posted by Ben236
As I stated in a previous post, the energy that can be extracted by burning the gas will be less than the energy needed to split the water in the first place.

I cannot endorse that statement.

Can you provide a source document?

A common myth which exists in abundance is that the energy required for breaking HHO is more than the released energy. This is simply not true.

watergasconvereter83.wordpress.com...

Like I said earlier...

When you spit firewood it takes a small amount of energy.
When you burn the split firewood it releases a huge amount of energy.

Same goes for water.

THERE IS A NET GAIN, equivalent to the amount of water consumed by the process.

Sri Oracle

[edit on 4-7-2008 by Sri Oracle]

Originally posted by Sri Oracle
I cannot endorse that statement.

Whether you endorse or not makes not difference - it's a physical law, not a political position. The universe cares not what you think about the way it operates.

When you spit firewood it takes a small amount of energy.

Eh? Chopping the wood adds nothing to it's energy - you use energy which will be dissipated as heat eventually.

When you burn the split firewood it releases a huge amount of energy.

Energy that it stored from photosynthesis.

Same goes for water.

No, or we would all be driving around in water powered cars.

THERE IS A NET GAIN, equivalent to the amount of water consumed by the process.

Prove it. Show me the maths and have your device tested by an independent lab - until then you're just another amongst millions who think they have OU.

Originally posted by FatherLukeDuke
Prove it. Show me the maths and have your device tested by an independent lab - until then you're just another amongst millions who think they have OU.

I'm working on it. I have my money and my time where my mouth is. I have systems installed in 4 vehicles, at cost, give us a month... and we'll have data.

Patience is a virtue.

Sri Oracle

Originally posted by ViewFromTheStars
Brown's gas or HHO is water that's been decomposed but it's components kept in a MONATOMIC state somehow. (Apparently by keeping it in the same container and under some mysterious amount of pressure and while in this state possesses some amazing properties)

No, you read into it wrong.

It's just H2 and O2, but in a 2:1 ratio. As in, 2 H2 for every one O2.

No monoatomic gases.

OK so it takes more energy to produce HHO that the energy it creates. but isnt energy heat? A car doesnt run on heat. We dont have steam engines... cars run on combustion. The explosive power of the fuel.

Should I even bring up gasoline? Would anyone here tell me that the energy that goes into extracting crude oil and refining it and transporting etc. is actually less that what gasoline provides out of the gas pump?

That's impossible! Gasoline cant scientifically work out... there is no net gain there. but still the fuel is sufficient to power cars for the past 100 years.

There are ways to get more electric power from your car if you need it. people install 1000 + watt sound systems on cars. capacitors, additional batteries, and alternators can supplement. Yes, alternators put a drag on the engine and reduce mpg, but they cant stop your motor! Who cares if you get less mpg if youre not paying for fuel... Or if you reduced your fuel consumption by 50%

It just somehow works out. Has anyone looked for videos? Ive seen a generator run on brown's gas. Ive seen generators run on propane. Ive seen a volkswagen run on setaline. I dont know but shouldn't hydrogen be more explosive than propane? That generator was powering the cells that provided the browns gas to run on. There were 12 cells. There are companies making HHO generators for sale producing 1200 liters per minute. How much could it possibly take to run an engine on 50% browns gas and double your mpg?

Again- the electricity is not a problem when you can install more batteries if need be. Ive even seen cars in audio competitions with several alternators modified to the engine. Why would you be concerned with mpg when the fuel is free? The goal doesnt seem to be seeking a PERFECT energy source, but a cheaper one.

The new honda runs on hydrogen. The only thing is... you have to fuel up at modified shell stations with compressed hydrogen!! Wow... another taxable fuel source oh joy!! But wait! Where do they get the hydrogen? Some special technique to make gains in net energy?

How about a solar powered water electrolysis station

"A solar powered electrolyzer produces the gas from water"
www.autobloggreen.com...

I dont see how "energy" loss is relevant. Isnt energy basically heat? Cars run off the explosive properties of a fuel rather than the fuel's "energy". Does gasoline scientifically work out to be a net gain? I dont see how it would considering that less than 50% of it is actually burned in the combustion chamber. So you start off with over a 50% loss and go down from there, considering mining, refining, transporting, etc.

The point is that a car can run on hydrogen, which is the most abundant element. Water electrolysis is a very easy way to get it.

I dont understand how mpg loss from drag on your alternator is even a relevant point. If your alternator put so much strain on your motor, then driving with your lights, windshield wipers, after market stereo equipment, anti-lock brakes, etc. would prove to be a massive and very noticeable loss in mpg. High performance alternators can double your available amps and cut the drag in half compared to your factory alternator. in combination with a second battery to store the power, you can easily double the available current. And why not modify a second alternator to your motor? Two high performance alternators equal to the drag of one factory alternator, while producing four times the amps.

Just food for thought. You can get way more current from your car, while reducing its efficiency slightly, if any.

I think HHO is a great idea as a supplemental additive to gasoline to improve mpg. Can anyone do the math on gasoline to see how it compares to HHO? That should be interesting

I've heavily researched this topic. HHO creation on a mobile basis' point isn't to use less energy. The point is to reduce cost, as well as reduce CO2 output by internal combustion engines.

The electricity used to produce the HHO partially dissipates as heat, and is thus lost. You do not end up with a net gain, as such a gain would violate the law of conservation of energy.

That said, plugging in your vehicle at night to a battery charger, or (better idea to reduce more emissions) put a solar panel on top (they do make these for cars), you can reduce your emissions significantly; however there are a few caveats. That said, if you do go the solar route, you're pretty much only responsible for the CO2 output that is coming from your exhaust pipe, since you're using a non terrestrial source for your extra electricity requirements.

The caveats go as follows:

DO NOT USE SALT FOR YOUR ELECTROLYTE! It creates Chlorine gas, which will kill you if you breathe it, and it won't do much for your emissions or mileage.

Stainless steel is a bad idea for conductors, as it produces dangerous chromium gas.

If you have a vehicle with an oxygen sensor/other sensors, it is necessary to either "fool" the sensor, or reduce it's voltage with an in-dash control, or get a scan-gauge (very cool toy btw), which will keep the oxygen sensor from making your car's computer dump more fuel into the engine as a result of detecting more oxygen as a result of the cleaner burn.

A better idea is to get either gold or platinum (platinum would be best, as it barely corrodes, if it corrodes at all), as they both conduct well and aren't subject as much to deterioration through slow creation of metal oxides

On carbureted engines without oxygen sensors, this is a great solution, as you can strap several jar units under the hood, and control fuel consumption very easily. Some people do report doubling gas mileage, with other fuel system mods, such as PCV jars and fuel vaporization/heating setups

I have a friend who already gets better engine performance; however he has not fooled his oxygen sensor yet...

There's plenty of free plans for these out there, don't buy one, and don't buy a unit, they're easy to build.

Fuel mods and other things are plentiful at a forum I frequent-
MPGResearch - mpgresearch.com... , I'd say it's the best, as it has a community feel...I have a fish carburetor that I can't wait to use!!! You'll understand if you read the forums there, a bit.


[edit on 12-7-2008 by joesomebody]

[edit on 12-7-2008 by joesomebody]

Very nice positive post ! Although i do not think that the small amount of chromium gas that is produced in this process is dangerous but i would like to know more about what is considered a dangerous level that could be produced by this system if anyone here knows? Also i find it very interesting that you state that with a scanguage you would not need a map sensor enhancer , could you clarify this please ? I am in the process of building an HHO system and would like more info on how the scanguage will help me fool the computer if this is possible then it would be the best way to go and although more expensive then the map enhancers and oxygen sensors mods that lots are talking about , the scanguage would definity be a cleaner install and less complicated way to go plus the advantages of being able to see many states of the cars systems ! Thanks

reply to post by Sri Oracle


I've done these sorts of chemical calculations before. By splitting water, you have to break bonds. This takes enthalpy - heat - to create more entropy. When you react hydrogen gas and oxygen gas, you're reforming those same bonds. It's literally impossible to get more energy out from this than you get in, at least mathematically. If you want to change that, you'll have to demonstrate it - until then, I think you've made an error (I'm not going to accuse you of lying). Maybe you can increase efficiency somehow with supplemental fuel sources or something, but that's really beyond me. I just know that you're not going to get a net energy gain by breaking the molecular bonds in water, then reforming them.

I think the long term affect for on-board HHO production is destroyed engine valves, exhaust manifolds and exhaust system.
To me, HHO would be something good to make at home, with windmills and solar panels.
Figure out a way to store the gas.
Build a hybrid car with some deep cycle batteries.
Install a small engine that is purpose built for burning HHO.
Use that engine to charge your batteries after the initial charge starts to wear down.
Drive the car with electric motors.
I would like to do all that, but do not have the money to do it.

Originally posted by Johnmike
reply to post by Sri Oracle

 

I've done these sorts of chemical calculations before. By splitting water, you have to break bonds. This takes enthalpy - heat - to create more entropy. When you react hydrogen gas and oxygen gas, you're reforming those same bonds. It's literally impossible to get more energy out from this than you get in, at least mathematically. If you want to change that, you'll have to demonstrate it - until then, I think you've made an error (I'm not going to accuse you of lying). Maybe you can increase efficiency somehow with supplemental fuel sources or something, but that's really beyond me. I just know that you're not going to get a net energy gain by breaking the molecular bonds in water, then reforming them.

That's called overunity - it's pretty well against the known laws of physics.

I wasn't suggesting that, I was suggesting using HHO as a means of running a car more cheaply by using electricity, which is either cheap from a battery charger plugged into a wall, or free from a solar panel....that energy is the extra energy that facilitates running the HHO setup...energy of course is lost as heat in the engine, alternator, and HHO array, so you eventually have to charge the battery from the outside...

It won't burn out the valves or anything. You won't have inner engine rust...just have a way to switch the unit on and off, so you can switch to regular gasoline before shutting the engine off, to evaporate the moisture away.


----

The scanguage basically bypasses your vehicle's computer, so you don't get error codes. I'm not totally sure that it actually dials down the sensor's dumping of gas or not...you should ask the guys on mpgforums.com, as I am shaky on that subject (I have a carbureted engine)

reply to post by joesomebody

Thanks for replying to my question about the scanguage (i had not yet registered)

Here is a car conversion web page.

I just wonder how much of the Hydrogen boost is coming from the non Relativistic atomic Hydrogen recombination at the spark.
H2 + 103cal/gram mole => 2H => H2 + 109,000 cal/gram mole
The small amount of heat absorbed (103cal/gram mole) to bubble up H2 is more than 1000 times payed off to recombine.
Well as long as it works.

More energy out than in counters the Second Lie of Thermodynamics.
Perhaps the reason Hydrogen injection is better than the fuel cell car.

Interesting Tesla mention on that page... at least he has hardware and not plans that don't work
and GOD mentioned a hundred times saying how wonderful everything is and find on Google
how people were ripped off.

There are forces today that would LOVE to see you WASTING FUEL. They say water cars are impossible, crazy, dangerous blah blah blah. On the other hand, great scientists and inventors such as Nikola Tesla have failed to fully realize their dream of HELPING OTHERS, and great inventions got lost. Why? The problem was always SECRECY and GREED. But here's a solution that's good for YOU:

Not true.
Tesla's gaseous ether is the basis of non Relativistic reactions.
Stick with Tesla. Tesla's gaseous ether might be giving the overall (ether) energy advantage.
Same for UFOs, its all Tesla and the gaseous ether for the UFO propulsion.
The UFO is just a few coils away.
Well the Tesla dream machine... saucers and UFOs are working fine for the Illuminati.
The Illuminati helped themselves before Tesla could help us.

Alcohol-Based Fuels
Ecological biologist David Blume discussed the importance and benefits of alcohol-based fuels, and how the petroleum industry has suppressed their development. Some of the earliest cars such as the Model T were flex fuel (running on either gas or alcohol), and Henry Ford was an advocate for alcohol fuel. However, he was opposed by John D. Rockefeller who pushed for Prohibition, which stopped the manufacture of alcohol for any purpose, Blume detailed.

Cheaper than gas, alcohol is a superior fuel, as it leaves no carbon behind, engines last longer, and it can free us from foreign dependence, he noted. There are some twenty different crops that can produce alcohol, and many of them, such as sugar beets, yield more alcohol per acre than corn.

Most cars can actually run with up to 50% alcohol in their tanks, without using any kind of conversion device, Blume declared, and kits can be added to vehicles for less than $300. People can get permits to create home distilleries to brew their own alcohol fuel, which enables them to be eligible for tax credits, he said. An advocate for community organizing, Blume said in many locales residents have set up driver owned stations which offer alcohol pumps.

www.coasttocoastam.com...
Interesting interview.
He made some good points.
Most electricity is used in the daytime so at night, the electrical grid can run on clean hydro-electric, mostly.
If everyone was charging electric cars at night, the grid would have to be beefed-up at night by burning dirty coal.
He says you can modify diesel engines to run on alcohol and get a 20% increase in mileage, over diesel fuel.
He says you can make your own alcohol for 30 cents a gallon.
He also thinks there can be a fuel cell that can use alcohol.

Oh brother.... I see alot of ignorance here and alot of educated people.

For my money I support George Wiseman. Thats right! eagle research. However
I own an ER-50. That is a demonstrative model technically, meaning I do not use the browns gas for use with internal combustion engines. I bubble the HHO through water and drink.

If you are ignorant about how human cells utilize hydrogen and oxygen consumed from water I would recommend learning more about the subject before you reply.

Before buying my ER-50 I learned all about how water can hold the properties of gases bubbled through it. Like carbonated water for just one example. Not being a big fan of oxygenated water due to the increased risk from free radicals and (from near as I could tell from personal experience) with little to no health benefits, I tried this hydrogenated water.

I can say this: Cuts do heal faster when applied topically. My stamina went through the roof. I have not felt any Ill side effects.

I have read about how it can neutralize radiation and of that claim I am very skeptical. I am not willing to test that claim unless absolutely forced to.

So that is me and my experience with drinking hydrogenated water.

reply to post by titorite

There are simply too many factors to say hydrogenated water increases stamina and heals wounds faster.

Only 0.0017g of hydrogen will dissolve in 1L of water (14 degrees C).

As for oxygen, it's going to be far more efficient to breathe more than drink oxygenated water.

Taking into account stomach temperatures, you'd only be getting 0.0014g of hydrogen from drinking a litre of hydrogenated water. That's a ludicrously low amount to see results like you're claiming.

Here's a few possible explanations for what you're seeing:

1) You've switched from drinking caffeinated drinks to just drinking water.
2) You're tricking yourself into believing it's working.
3) You were cleaning the wound better with the hydrogenated water, speeding up the healing process.
4) You used to be drinking not enough water and now you are
5) It actually does work

[edit on 20-7-2008 by Ben236]

Originally posted by TeslaandLyne
I just wonder how much of the Hydrogen boost is coming from the non Relativistic atomic Hydrogen recombination at the spark.
H2 + 103cal/gram mole => 2H => H2 + 109,000 cal/gram mole
The small amount of heat absorbed (103cal/gram mole) to bubble up H2 is more than 1000 times payed off to recombine.

Problem here.

One, this energy is coming from the bond enthalpy. The bond enthalpy (heat, basically; energy stored in the bond) of H2 is 104kcal/mol, or 436kJ/mol. This is Hydrogen gas. Nothing about water here. At all.

Now, if you combine 2H to make H2, you get...436kJ/mol. Not 109k, or any figure around there. I don't know where you got that from, but it's the same bond, and you use or get the same amount of energy from breaking and forming that bond.

reply to post by Ben236


Don't forget that bubbling hydrogen through water will generate some hydrogen peroxide (H2O2), which is a very potent anti-microbial. Which would help cuts heal faster than not applying anything. But I suggest just buying some hydrogen peroxide form the store. It's cheap.

Originally posted by nataylor
Don't forget that bubbling hydrogen through water will generate some hydrogen peroxide (H2O2), which is a very potent anti-microbial. Which would help cuts heal faster than not applying anything. But I suggest just buying some hydrogen peroxide form the store. It's cheap.

It's also not safe to drink hydrogen peroxide. Be careful.