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Thoughts On Exotic Propulsion Systems...

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posted on Apr, 12 2008 @ 04:01 PM
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Menguard, I hope you don't mind, but your post was in paragraph form, and it took me a long time to understand what you were saying. I'm going to break your post down in my response so that I can ask specific questions...


Originally posted by menguard
I would say some use electromagnetic properties, others Solar Waves, Particle Wave travel.


First, I'm assuming you are speaking about Alien craft here. I'm not sure if you have inside knowledge on these things. I'm one of those researchers that will not necessarily discount someone who says they know something about Alien technology, but I do like to hold it up against known physics, and test any idea I can find. Having a solid source helps, but I don't want to miss something true just because it seems 'out there'. I hope that explains my position in asking you questions about your post. Not trying to be mean or debunk, just curious as to possible leads I can put to the test to see what pans out.


So you list 3 things here,
1) electromagnetic properties
2) Solar Waves
3) Particle Wave travel

As I understand it, you might be talking about the same thing using 3 different names?

Light (or photons) from the Sun is actually a part of what is called the Electro-Magnetic Spectrum:
imagine.gsfc.nasa.gov...

But light propagates as a ray (or a straight line):
www.optics.arizona.edu...

So when you say Solar Waves, I assume your talking about a force from the sun that propagates in a wave? What force would this be? Just curious, it sounds interesting.



Originally posted by menguard
Some use mercury through the ship the rising and the cooling temperature around the ship propels it.


Now that's an Idea I've never heard before. Like a variance of temperature in space? In this system, would you theoretically use the temperature variance as a power source (creating electricity) or as thrust (as in the Ion wind theory)? That's an interesting idea, I'd like to know more about what you mean.


Originally posted by menguard
Others could use Star Magnets that project the drive through alignment with a star.


Now this I must admit I don't understand. Could you elaborate on this theoretical system, and how it would work?


Originally posted by menguard
Some could use Crystals through malignant counter tension which changes the manuevering of a the craft.


I'm not educated on Crystals and their properties. Could you link to some sites that might help me understand what this means?


Originally posted by menguard
Some others Using A steam engine type of propulsion.


I'm envisioning the Doc in the 'Back to the Future' trilogy with his steam engine time machine
I suppose if you could figure out a way to create a traversable black hole with a plotted white hole and scale down the power requirements enough, you could build a 'jump' vehicle like Doc Browns time machine. Is this what you meant?


Originally posted by menguard
Some propell the craft through mind projection, others could be hooked up into some type of electrode scanner picking up electrical signals from the brain. Some could use thermol dynamics, creating a wave of energy to be dispersed through the rising and cooling of the energy body.


Okay here it seems like you are describing Aliens (or Humans I suppose) using their own bodies to propel their craft through space. Is that right?
I've heard of 'controling' a spaceship with your mind before, Humans are working on components of such technology now, with computers for disabled people.
blogs.chron.com...
But are you talking about using the body as a Power Source???



Originally posted by menguard
Some could use a chemical compound that creates bursts of energy on the outside hull of the deck to propell it through space.


The Orion spaceship had a design that called for dropping small nuclear bombs behind the ship and for the craft to ride the blast wave from each explosion to gain progressively in speed. Is that what you're talking about?


Originally posted by menguard
Some could just travel through the metamorphisis of molecules breaking down and re-alinging with another frequency band.


This sounds like wormholes to me. Is that what you mean? Controlling a wormhole with the mind/body?


Originally posted by menguard
Others could change the internal drive of the field of energy around the craft too erupt fuel lines to bounce off of.


This part I just don't understand. Please explain...


Originally posted by menguard
Ohh and a Laser propulsion system that locks on to matter through a reverse polarity, instead of it using the field of electromagnetics it just uses the field of gravity to pull itself in through a lazers beam.


I'm not sure how a Laser can 'pull' itself in. Can you elaborate?

Thanks for answering my questions, I appreciate your participation in the thread


-WFA




posted on Apr, 12 2008 @ 04:10 PM
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reply to post by WitnessFromAfar
 

Glad my ideas got you to think in depth on the topic and thanks for sharing your story.


I agree that we may have great imaginations, we can dream up amazing things. In our time, we can either create these ideas that are dreampt up, in other cases the technology is not yet in our grasp and they remain just ideas. Some ideas are constrained by our perceived reality, our knowledge of the universe and of physics, while others are completely independent of these constraints. These latter ideas may seem crazy and off-the-wall to most, and put into that science fiction category.

I say though, that these are exactly the ideas, the crazy, no scientific backing, off-the-wall ideas that may start to scratch the surface of what an advanced propulsions system may be like.

So the ideas that flow should not be constrained or shot-down by any present day conventional science or physics. Any 'rule' that we may hold dear and near to our hearts now, is able to be broken, or at the least, to be circumvented by some unknown, yet to be discovered science.

"The more you know, the more you know that you don't know."



posted on Apr, 12 2008 @ 04:10 PM
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Originally posted by thesaint
...harness the energy of light itself and "go with the flow" so to speak.


This makes perfect sense to me, and I believe that technology such as Solar Sails belong at the top tier of the list of potential methods of space travel that do not somehow bypass the 'normal' laws of physics.

I think in this thread we should seperate our discussion into two subsections. These being:
1) Methods Consistent with Known Physics
2) Methods That Would Bypass Known Physics.

I'm in no way saying that the second option is impossible. I just think it's important to remember that both might be required on a craft for feasible 'real world' use.

IMHO, this technology belongs at the top tier of category 1.


Originally posted by thesaint
The other thing i think of is energy equalling mass and needing an infinite amout of energy to travel at the speed of light then if using light as your propulsion the mass of your craft could be whatever you want ????


I'm not sure on this, it's been too long since I've read up on Einstein. It occurs to me without checking equations though that infinite energy would give you infinite speed, even surpassing the speed of light. There should be a measurable amount of energy required (per system of travel, depending on fuel source) to move at the speed of light, since the speed of light is really nothing more than one speed among many. It's just the fastest speed we observe in nature (unless you count gravity, which apparently propagates much faster).

But I like where you're going with this idea. Thoughts?

-WFA



posted on Apr, 12 2008 @ 04:14 PM
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reply to post by battlestargalactica
 


Wow, we essentially both just posted the same thing in different words at 2:10 PM (on my clock).

Crazy.

I completely agree that known physics should not be a standard for shooting down ideas. Physics is an ever evolving field of research, that incorporates new knowledge about the universe every day. I think we're about to learn some really interesting things about physics in the years to come (the Pioneer Anamoly for example).



-WFA



posted on Apr, 12 2008 @ 04:23 PM
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Originally posted by Scramjet76
reply to [url=http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread348363/pg1#
2.17 days


This number hit me in the gut like a firehose. Thank you for doing that math. I suppose it is all in the perspective of the traveller, when travelling. Still, doing a fly-by and returning home would be strange, as 4.34 days for you would equal approximately 8.44 years for everyone here on Earth waiting for your return.

Still, it's a highly feasible time scale for interstellar travel.



posted on Apr, 12 2008 @ 04:27 PM
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reply to post by Nohup
 


Hey there Nohup!
I've seen this idea represented in two ways in popular fiction.

1) K-Pax, the movie where the supposed Alien 'beams himself' to Earth on a ray of light, using his mind to travel there.

2) Dune, where they use a drug called Spice to awaken their minds to level where they are able to fold space, and move a 'ship' (a big cylinder with a bunch of ships in it) from one point in space to another through the folding.

This also reminds me of the 'Amber' series by Roger Zelazny, where the royal family could 'walk through shadows' imagining their reality as they went.

Thanks for adding your 2 cents


-WFA



posted on Apr, 12 2008 @ 04:31 PM
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Originally posted by zerop
Some type of space warp via an artificial gravitational field seems like the best bet. Use the field to "compress" a portion of space in front of the ship, reducing the actual inline distance needed to travel across that space by orders of magnitude. Then do it repetitively at a frequency of 2GHz, until you reach the stars.


This idea seems like one of the most feasible in the next few hundred years. IF (and that's a big if) we can establish a stable way of creating an artificial gravity field. Perhaps the artificial black holes created by the Z machine at Sandia could be put to such use?

(Possibly Fictional Sidenote) - I believe that in the John Titor story the time travel theory involved rotating two black holes in proximity and exploiting the gravitational effects to travel. (End Sidenote)

The only part I don't understand is the 2Ghz frequency. Could you explain?

-WFA



posted on Apr, 12 2008 @ 04:36 PM
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Originally posted by ATS4dummies
...Otherwise your only hope is to turn yourself into massless photons and reassemble yourself back into quantum mass at the other end.


Well, if the theoretical mechanism of the Black Hole - Wormhole - White Hole system is correct, than it appears that in nature the constituent matter is not reassembled at the other end. You're right, we'd need a way to survive the process. We'd essentially need to be able to pre-program ourselves to re-assemble from constituent matter on the other side, or we'd need to be able to create a vessel that would somehow protect us from being de-assembled in the first place.

You're right that both of these ideas seem a long way off. Could you talk more about the Higgs Boson? I don't think that idea has been taken into enough detail in the thread. I'm not an expert on it so I thought maybe you could elaborate?

-WFA



posted on Apr, 12 2008 @ 04:58 PM
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Originally posted by InfaRedMan
Personally - I don't buy the infinite mass at light speed argument.


I'd like to see it tested. It would be a fairly simple experiment. We'd just need a small craft with Solar Sails that is capable of measuring both it's speed and it's mass, and capable of transmitting that data back to Earth.
We'd only need measurements out to the end of the Heliosphere to make extrapolations. It would at least give us an idea.


Originally posted by InfaRedMan
An interesting theory I heard from Jana Levin the astrophysicist (i think) was that we may be able to shave time of long space journeys by not following the curvature of space from Point-A to Point-B. Almost like a dimensional slip I guess as it's a direction we can't find in regular 360 degree movement.


I've often wondered about this theory. I've got an interesting spin that I would love some feedback on. What if there is no 'sub-space' and that by travelling this path we remain in 'normal space' throughout the journey.

Currently NASA sends robotic probes throughout the Solar System. To do this they must calculate (in a moving solar system) where their target (let's say Mars for example) will be in the Solar System when the spacecraft arrives there. They send the craft towards that point, as opposed to sending it to chase down the target.

Aren't we already exploiting this loophole in 'normal space'?
When speaking in terms of travelling from another star to Earth at the speed of light, we are talking about following the straight line path of light (which as observed also follows the curvature of space-time, making it not really a straight path at all).

Could this theory not be applied to travel on larger scales such as this as well? Instead of following the curvature of space as light would, we move at 99.99% of light speed through 'normal space' to the projected point in space where the target (star or planet) would be upon arrival.

Exploiting this principle in 'normal space' should still cause a measurable depreciation in travel time.


Originally posted by InfaRedMan
This wouldn't help so much traveling shorter distances but would be advantageous on big journeys.


Agreed, which is why I firmly believe that any realistic spacecraft is going to need several different methods of propulsion.



Originally posted by InfaRedMan
Also travel would be free of debris like space dust, asteroids etc in this dimensional subspace so travel would be much safer... in theory. Also it's possible that there won't be the same physical limitations placed upon us as we see in regular space-time.Who knows ehh.


I agree, we need to start testing these possibilities. I wonder how long it will be before Humans (in mainstream public science) are able to open up a Wormhole?


Originally posted by InfaRedMan
It seems a lot less destructive than warping space. The thought of that just scares me!


I'm not so scared about that, since we see Stars and Planets (anything with measurable gravity) warp time-space all the time. It appears to be the norm in space, outside of atmospheric locales, that physics allows for the warping of space-time. But you're also right when you say 'who knows'? Surely not I! Warping space time (or even messing with black holes in miniature) might be a terrbile idea. It would be nice to have a deep space outpost where we could test such ideas at an Earth safe distance.


Nice post InfaRedMan, thanks for joining in!


-WFA



posted on Apr, 12 2008 @ 05:00 PM
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The system to which I was referring in previous posts is being patented, by me.

If any CSIS or UK agencies would like to contact me feel free to do so by phone fax or email.

CSIS, my file is there, just omit my first name change the middle name initial to E. and take it from there.



posted on Apr, 12 2008 @ 05:36 PM
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One of the hottest quantum physics trends today is Super String Theory. This Theory relies on the existence of more spatial dimensions than we, with our scientific technologies, can monitor. Perhaps the governments of the world conceal the means to monitor them, perhaps not, all I know is that humans, with our 5 physical senses can only perceive the world in three spatial dimensions. Time is one that afflicts us all witch makes a 4th spatial dimension. Super String theory introduces 6 other dimensions including Super Gravityand the dimension which light exist in, hypothesized to be immune of time, are two of the 6, and the other 4, well look it up yourself.

The idea that aliens are hyper dimensional means that the dimensions that we experience, and the dimensions whose phsyical laws we derive our physics from, don't necessarily apply to the spatial dimensions other than the ones we 'sense'.

Suppose an intelligent race of beings resides in the dimension of light. If they're capable of moving within their dimension it would mean that they're able to move above the speed of light. Einstein hypothesized, never proved, that there should be a speed beyond the speed of light where time stops relative to the other spatial dimensions. Now suppose these beings from the Light Dimension wished to move from the alpha centuri galaxy to the milky way. In their dimension the time that we feel doesn't affect them, making their journey, in their light spatial dimension almost instantaneous.
After all there is light in every quadrent of our universe, except maybe within black holes. Some of it is just old, and relative to us, very fast.



posted on Apr, 12 2008 @ 06:37 PM
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Could we please stick more closely to reality with this thread.

We are really starting to go off on a tangent here with all this talk of black holes and warp speed and transporting each other around as beams of light. No more aliens, please, stop with the aliens. They won't help you and you can't learn anything from them.

Seriously, we need to stick to what is actually possible or this thread is gonna start dying and I won't give any more information to a dying thread.

It started off quite well, then started turning stupid.

Let's actually try Educating each other with a minimum of sci-fi wonderwishing.

Thank you.



posted on Apr, 12 2008 @ 06:48 PM
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Originally posted by doctormcauley
The system to which I was referring in previous posts is being patented, by me.

If any CSIS or UK agencies would like to contact me feel free to do so by phone fax or email.
CSIS

Oh brother...



posted on Apr, 12 2008 @ 08:05 PM
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Originally posted by Crabmeat
One of the hottest quantum physics trends today is Super String Theory. This Theory relies on the existence of more spatial dimensions than we, with our scientific technologies, can monitor. Perhaps the governments of the world conceal the means to monitor them, perhaps not, all I know is that humans, with our 5 physical senses can only perceive the world in three spatial dimensions. Time is one that afflicts us all witch makes a 4th spatial dimension. Super String theory introduces 6 other dimensions including Super Gravityand the dimension which light exist in, hypothesized to be immune of time, are two of the 6, and the other 4, well look it up yourself.

The idea that aliens are hyper dimensional means that the dimensions that we experience, and the dimensions whose phsyical laws we derive our physics from, don't necessarily apply to the spatial dimensions other than the ones we 'sense'.

Suppose an intelligent race of beings resides in the dimension of light. If they're capable of moving within their dimension it would mean that they're able to move above the speed of light. Einstein hypothesized, never proved, that there should be a speed beyond the speed of light where time stops relative to the other spatial dimensions. Now suppose these beings from the Light Dimension wished to move from the alpha centuri galaxy to the milky way. In their dimension the time that we feel doesn't affect them, making their journey, in their light spatial dimension almost instantaneous.
After all there is light in every quadrent of our universe, except maybe within black holes. Some of it is just old, and relative to us, very fast.


Thanks for bringing this thread back to REALITY Crabmeat!

Very good insights and excellent observations!



posted on Apr, 12 2008 @ 11:30 PM
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Change vibrational state to another dimension.
Make your craft weight nothing then it can not have infinite mass at light speed or faster if it already weighs nothing (for conventional travel in our dimension).
Speed of light is just a silly little human number - it's affected by gravity anyway, go figure. We try to quantify things too hard hehehe...


Originally posted by doctormcauley
Seriously, we need to stick to what is actually possible or this thread is gonna start dying and I won't give any more information to a dying thread.


That's why we're still stuck driving cars with petrol engines and wheels after 100 years. Think outside the square.. there is so much out there we cannot comprehend or explain and many don't wish to even attempt to percieve it. If we stick with our usual 'oogah boogah' propulsion and limited thinking of what is possible then we'll always be stuck in the same loop (as a general population). We don't really know jack about how things work on a grander scheme.

[edit on 12-4-2008 by GhostR1der]



posted on Apr, 13 2008 @ 01:48 AM
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Originally posted by doctormcauley
Seriously, we need to stick to what is actually possible or this thread is gonna start dying and I won't give any more information to a dying thread.

Well a few phrases come to mind like, "who cares", and "your loss." But really, if you can't keep up there's always 'cutting edge' magazines like popular science you can read.


@ghost1rider:
I like your thoughts on the matter, slim down our mass (to nil virtually) and the relativistic mass issue drops away. Of course we're not talking about the use of composites or other more exotic mat'ls to slim us down
but rather some other form of dimensional conversion.

Possibly like those people that cheat on the scale, transferring their weight to a counter-top or other, sticking one toe on the scale
. It would be like transferring 99.9999% of our ships mass into another dimension temporarily, while accelerating to the speed light in this dimension.

Of course that would mean that this other dimension would need to have some 'different' properties, because our transferred ship would still need to accelerate in THAT dimension as well.

Likewise we would be able to take advantage of these different dimensions in other ways too. Some dimensions may consist of pure energy (maybe like being inside a sun all the time), others may be 2-dimensional or worse.



[edit on 13-4-2008 by battlestargalactica]



posted on Apr, 13 2008 @ 03:56 AM
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Basically, if we refuse to stick to what is actually know to be possible all we are doing is talking sci-fi.... WARP FTL HYPERSPACE OMG just like TV!

Reptilians! LOL!

The system I talked about HAS been built, IS being used and does NOT go faster than the speed of light.... Read my previous posts... the ones wherein I specifically put some info you haven't read in any book or website. I haven't yet published any non-medical papers this year although I tend to believe that they will beheavily scrutinized in the peer-review process.
.
If you don't understand something that OKAY! but it is not proper to tell other people that they are not capable of understanding something just because you are unable to do so yourself.

I really am a doctor, and I really will help you develop your theories on FTL.

Do not ingest monoatomic elements! Or you could, but you'll be visiting the likes of me to get your kidney stones removed....
... which I would gladly do for free.

God bless Canada.



Ask me the right questions and I'll give the right answers. This will ensure that those who intend to pursue this topic will have what they need to do so and I can better communicate the requested data to you.

I don't enforce any of my non-medical patents, so feel free to use the info to expand your minds... which is what is why we are here.






[edit on 13-4-2008 by doctormcauley]



posted on Apr, 13 2008 @ 04:23 AM
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I have already designed such a system, and applied for patents.

I will give a few hints...

1) Monoatomic elements are used... learn about their weight at different temperatures. Be impressed. But why?

2)Particle Accelerators in space? Well sort of... Guess why?

3) What happens when a particle is lighter at it's point of origin than it's point of Impact? Do you See where I am going?

4)What happens when you superheat a Monoatomic element? What happens when it is at absolute zero? How do these different states affect the element?


Answer these questions and you'll learn something profound.

Then it all starts to become obvious and you'll soon realize why you didn't figure it out sooner.



posted on Apr, 13 2008 @ 04:25 AM
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Now imagine that such a monoatomic "chain" was superheated before it was propelled whilst cooling on the way. We already know the mass is altered whilst the element is at different temperatures.

What law of thermodynamics? It is starting to sound more like a theory every day....



posted on Apr, 13 2008 @ 04:26 AM
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Such chains are to be aligned within nanotubes made out of whatever material found to be the least reactive to the element you are using as your drive mechanism. These nanotubes are to be converted to plasma...

This is just one way of manipulating the mass of the elements contained within... and even then only in a very specific type of complex drive system.

Monoatomic elements will react and unpredictably, and when you are dealing with them in an individual capacity they cannot be reliably used for any such system here On earth.

These structures (dealt with in this capacity) are far from "Noble", and can only be applied with efficacy in one environment.


Imagine this... You string 13 baseballs together and attempt to throw them all by heaving the first one with all your might... after all 13 balls is hard to throw, and they are strung together, so it is quite hard for you to manage them... in this environment..

Suppose however, when you threw that first baseball in the chain of balls, the rest got up and followed it BUT you only had to exert enough force to throw the ONE baseball...

Similar things can happen... with monoatomic elements BUT only under certain conditions.

This is an simplified analogy, but it is important for us Humans to know such information.



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