Media Blackout? Robert Kahre Defeats IRS in Court 161-0, page 1
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Topic started on 10-4-2008 @ 10:21 PM by SystemiK
VIDEO Insider Exclusive: IRS vs. Robert Kahre
Steve Murphy interviews Robert Kahre and his attorney, William A. Cohan. (Includes security footage from the raid which government agents attempted to destroy/conceal).

I was surprised when searching for prior threads here that there had only been 1 thread and just a handful of posts.

This story has been unfolding since 1993 but reached a landmark status in September of 2007 when a Nevada jury returned 0 guilty verdicts to 161 charges against the defendants. The crux of the case hinged upon the fact that the defendant paid his employees in $1.00 silver coins which are currently in circulation and are legal tender. The IRS contends that taxes owed should be based on the market value as a precious metal (approximately $114,000,000) and not the cumulative $1.00 face value of the coins. Apparently even highly educated tax attorneys are unable to conclude how the law applies to this situation.

Liberty Watch Article on the Kahre Case
thought-criminal.org Article on the Kahre Case

The government has not backed down however and is most definitely building yet another case against Kahre. While this story is not "breaking news" and many of you have likely heard of this case, I am very concerned by the lack of coverage from the MSM.

The defendant is the uncle of a close friend of mine who is up against life in prison to defend against abuses of our constitutional rights and freedoms. We hope to spread awareness on the issue here at ATS and perhaps to hear some of your thoughts.

Thanks,
SK

[edit on 10-4-2008 by SystemiK]


reply posted on 10-4-2008 @ 11:04 PM by SystemiK
Originally posted by Res Ipsa
Why was he paying people like that?


My understanding is that he (like many others, including Ron Paul) do not believe that the IRS has any lawful authority to tax personal income. He found a loophole in which he could pay his employees with these silver coins which obviously had the effect of reducing his employee's tax liabilities (as well as his own). I can understand that this is a point in which many people will disagree. Some will see him as a greedy buisnessman. Others, such as myself tend to view his actions as heroic actions against an IRS agency which exists outside of constitutional law. I leave that judgement for each person to make based on his own beliefs...

Interestingly, he states in the interview posted above that he initiated a lawsuit against the IRS in 1993 and paid his filing fees with 240 of these same silver coins (even though the value of the coins was in excess of the $1 face value). The coins were accepted and he was not reimbursed in any way for the excess. Quite interesting that the gov will accept them just fine but takes great exception to them being used as wage re-imbursement.

Another point of interest is that he claims that he helped a few dozen other companies to set up similar wage re-imbursements, yet to date, I do not believe that the IRS has gone after any of those companies. I imagine that they desire a court decision in their favor before opening up any additional cases.

His original lawsuit against the IRS was intended to bring to light this practice of paying in precious metals and to reach a legal precident. It seems to me that they wanted nothing to do with any "legal entanglements" which a court case may have brought about yet, they most definitely held a grudge and have brought that grudge to bear upon Robert Kahre.


reply posted on 10-4-2008 @ 11:24 PM by daddyroo45
reply to post by Res Ipsa


I think they only showed parts of the video.The lawer said that the video had proof that some of the agents lied under oath.I would think they had to hold back for legal reasons.


reply posted on 10-4-2008 @ 11:38 PM by ianr5741
Here's the thing...

The IRS wants to collect income tax based on the presumption that employees will be paid with dollars, specifically Federal Reserve Notes or checks based on them.


But there's a problem here. The face value of an old silver dollar coin, which is still considered legal tender, is $1.00. But the value of the silver in it is worth much more.


So this employer had his employees agree to be paid with these silver dollars, which they would sell at the price of the metal in them. But for purposes of taxation, they were basing their calculations on the face value of the coins.


The problem is not what was done here.


What this issue is really about is that the currency we are FORCED to use by the Federal Reserve monopoly has lost a tremendous amount of value compared to the value of hard money like gold or silver. All because of destructive monetary policy of the Fed. NOT OUR FAULT.


So this guy exercised an option to pay his employees in something valued more than the fiat currency, yet the thing he paid with ALSO happens to be considered legal tender under the law.


So how much did his employees get paid? The dollar value? Or the silver value?


If our government doesn't like a silver dollar being worth more than a paper dollar, THEN THEY CAN GET SMART ABOUT THEIR MONETARY POLICY AND PUT AN END TO THE FALLING VALUE OF THE DOLLAR.


What else this does is prove the fact that a fiat paper currency is unstable and easily destroyed. If you run the printing presses too much, the currency sinks.


YOU CAN'T PRINT GOLD OR SILVER. This is why its value is so stable relative to paper currency... there is what there is and that's all that there is. If you want more, you're going to have to get it the hard way. Most importantly, if you've spent it all, YOU REALLY ARE BROKE. Unlike our government today, which always seems to be able to come up with the cash for anything it wants. (Ever wonder how they always did that?)


This is why bankers have always loved fiat currencies. It allowed them to partner up with governments, create money, spend it, and get something for nothing. Why do you think bankers are so wealthy? They've stolen the publics wealth with money that is basically counterfeit.







[edit on 10-4-2008 by ianr5741]



reply posted on 11-4-2008 @ 03:26 AM by ChadOnLife
reply to post by SystemiK


Thanks for sharing that story. Robert Kahre & his family will be avenged by those, who love liberty & justice for all [not taxes for all ].

The "federal" reserve bank & their "Internal Revenue Service" has no authority over us. They're armed & dangerous, but they can't defeat Robert Kahre & the other people, who gladly refuse to be victims of the Bauer/Rothschild family: owners of the bank, which sent its blood-thirsty troops over to Robert Kahre's home & business.

[edit on 11-4-2008 by ChadOnLife]


reply posted on 11-4-2008 @ 08:33 PM by SystemiK
Here is an interesting article which addresses some of the complexities arising from this case.

Excerpt:


Indeed, Publication 17, in the section, Miscellaneous Deductions, does address gold coins, usually in the context of holding them as collectables and investments. For example, a rare, non-circulating gold coin would be considered a capital asset, similar to gems, jewelry, stamps, antique household furnishing, and stocks and bonds. These types of items are defined by the IRS as investment property, and investment property is considered a capital asset.

However, in the scenario of being paid for services rendered, the handyman was not holding the American Gold Eagle as an investment – the handyman was holding it as legal tender in exchange for labor.

The American Gold Eagle is legal tender just like a quarter, dime, nickel, or penny. The 1-oz Gold Eagle has a face value of $50. The ½-oz Gold Eagle has a face value of $25. Minted at West Point, NY, also available is a ¼-oz Gold Eagle with a face value of $15 and a 1/10-oz Gold Eagle with a face value of $5. The U.S. Government introduced the American Gold Eagle in 1986. The 1-oz American Gold Eagle contains exactly 1-oz of 22-karat gold.

Can the IRS have it both ways? Can the IRS claim that taxpayers must pay face value on certain legal tender and market value on others. When questioned about a more specific rule that directly addressed this type of tax question, Knierim admitted that no rule existed.

The Muckraker Report asked Knierim what the market value of a $50 bill was in today’s market. He could not say. When confronted with the fact that the cost for the materials used to produce a $50 bill amounted to approximately 6 cents, Knierim conceded the point while insisting that for tax purposes, circulating gold coins fall under a different category. The Muckraker Report asked, “A category in which there is not a specific rule or law that defines the category?” Knierim answered, “yes”.



Also, my friend mentioned this thread to her uncle and she said he was VERY grateful for all of your interest and support. I'd love to see him posting here, from what I understand of his views, he would fit in well with this community.


reply posted on 12-4-2008 @ 05:17 AM by Spectre0o0
i think everyone on this thread has missed the big one. if they want to tax this guy on the real value of a silver dollar,then why cant we claim the real value of a federal reserve note? ( about 4 cents) doesnt it work both ways? how do you prosecute both?
you wanna say that a silver dollar is woth more than a dollar ,then you have to admit that the federal reserve note dollar is not worth a dollar. this is because the dollar is specifically 27.07 grams of .903 pure silver.
this was the first sd minted by the us.
so,if they're going to get this guy for the value of silver,then we should be be able to claim 100,000 as 4000.
and dont get me started on the legality of the irs
does everyone know that every cent of your income tax goes to the federal reserve to pay intrest that we owe because we have no american currency?? hence the national debt.
also the fed produces money out of thin air. but here's the problem.
the fed only creates money to lend. so lets put this in a very easy to understand context. say i am the fed,and i create $1o dollars @ 2%. ths means you now owe me $12. only problem is that as the fed .i only created $10. where does the intrest come from? the fed is the only creator of currency,and they loan every cent of that fiat currency. the dog is now catching its own tail,because the bad loans in the mortgage sector stopped coming in .not to mention the intrest .
this put the banks in a real dilema
this is why the intrest rate at the discount window(where the banks borrow) went down to 2.25% and home loans went up. it was a scheme to up the intrest at your expense to take the banks out of trouble.
in other words , you're footing the bill for big cusinesses fouo up agin.
REMEMBER THE SAVINGS AND LOANS? SEEM FAMILIAR?

[edit on 12-4-2008 by Spectre0o0]

[edit on 12-4-2008 by Spectre0o0]
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