Whats the Truth about Tibet?

China has as much right to claim Tibet as the European monarchies had to claim the 'new world' and their other imperial colonies (australia et al). That is to say, none. Try arguing that with the Chinese though. It's hard to win an argument based on moral highground when you're knee-deep in the swamp.

To envisage how a 'feudalistic' buddhist kingdom such as Tibet may appear today without the Chinese invasion, consider the Kingdom of Bhutan.

Bhutan is one of the most isolated and least developed nations in the world. Nonetheless, survey data from the country suggest it is also one of the happiest

en.wikipedia.org...

reply to post by Shar_Chi

Bhutan is one of the most isolated and least developed nations in the world. Nonetheless, survey data from the country suggest it is also one of the happiest

HAPPY???

How the hell could they be happy?????? .. They where underdeveloped!

They didn't have cars, McDonalds.. Walmart, Taco Bell, Movie theaters, giant armies, big sky scrapers with cubicles, plastic phones and filing cabinets, and they didn't have Britney Spears, Fergie, WWE, violent movies, violent rap music, Escalades, violent school shootings, perscription drugs, government survalience, shopping malls, credit cards, inflated mortgages, insanely expensive higher education...

Gosh.

We have it MADE in the USA and the West.. what the hell is wrong with those people.. happy and no taco bell.. wha eva.. they crazy. Everyone knows you need Taco Bell to be happy.. Well im off to go take my concoction of medication my doctor tells me will make me forget where I'm at, who I am, and all my troubles. Wonder why they didn't need those in Bhutan......

Originally posted by Odessy
lee anoma,

The whole millionaire Buddhist thing, well, spirituality is internal, so I dont think its a bad thing if people with money decide to walk on that path... we dont know whats in their hearts.

Odessy,

Not only did the Buddha leave behind his wealthy life for a simpler more humble one, he rejected materialism.

A millionaire by nature is materialistic and elitist. From the the top of their heads the with their well maintained thousand dollar haircuts, to the bottom of their feet that just went through cosmetic surgery to remove bones to fit expensive high heel shoes.

How would the story of Buddah resonate with the people if instead of walking the path himself he sent out a few servants to collect the information for him as he laid around in his palace?

In order to be wealthy in this world someone has to be poor.

The owner of Nike shoes can claim to be spiritual and enlightened (I am sure as most wealthy believe themselves to be spiritual at least) but at the end of the day his wealth comes at the expense of the third-world workers getting paid slave wages to create a product sold for far greater value.

I don't have to know what is in his heart to see he is NOT following the path just his own definition of what it is. To follow the path is to rid yourself of the material trappings of the world and reject the self-worship and egotism of celebrity status. You can't follow the path to enlightenment in a limousine on your own private road tended to by servants.

This is why that the major theme of most spiritual leaders in our ancient books is to leave materialism and ask you to do the same.

Not embrace it.

In my book a millionaire Buddhist is a contradiction.

Matthew 19:24

"...go, sell what you have, and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me." But when the young man heard the saying, he went away sad, for he was one who had great possessions.

"Again I say to you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God."

To understand what that means is to understand the barrier extreme riches create on the road.

- Lee

Here is some insight to what goes on there: Video from LiveLeak showing Chinese soldiers just shooting tibetan like it is hunting season

www.liveleak.com...



[edit on 9-4-2008 by IspyU]

reply to post by lee anoma


I think your confusing extremists to beliefs...

Its like comparing Buddhists to monks.
Christians to priests.
Jews to Rabis.

you can believe something without going to the extreme.
Buddhist monks also dont eat in the afternoon because they believe we should eat to live, but not live to eat...
that doesnt mean every busshist doesnt have lunch.

Originally posted by Rockpuck
reply to post by Odessy

 

So you read some Western material on Tibet... and in agreement with Western Media.

No, i didnt read western media.
The sources I used were not western media besides the youtube video... which i WATCHED, and the Wiki article.

THEN.. and let me get this perfectly straight....


You watched a YOUTUBE VIDEO .. and believe YouTube to be a better source for information then News outlets?

hmmm. no.
I watched some youtube videos. saw what they had to say, and then read some documents.
I also linked the CIA book thing as well.
I also read some of the other threads that were posted that had to do with the same subject.

.. And that this has persuaded you to believe very, very, VERY VERY apparent CHINESE propaganda?

Wow.

Thats all I will add... just Wow..

Listen up... bub.
Where, in my entire OP did I say I believed either side?
Please, please, PLEASE, PLEASE find that for me.
the entire point of this was to get everyones opinion on both sides.

and if anything, i've been leading towards the Tibetans...

please, do me a favor and refrain from posting when you have no clue what your saying.
you want to blow steam, do it at someone that deserves it.

[edit on 9-4-2008 by Odessy]

I see this as very simple. The Tibetans are not free to determine for themselves the system they live under, so China is wrong. It is really that simple.

The real shame in all this is the violent protesters bastardizing their cause with their childish and criminal activities. They are actually doing the Chinese more good than they are the Tibetans. Childish minds commit childish acts.

The Chinese will successfully use videos of the violence to demonize the West and further their cause. They are probably ecstatic that the protesters are making it easier for them to control their own population.

Could it be the violent protesters don't really give a damn and their only real cause is their own cravings for attention. If that were not the real truth their protests would be lawful and peaceful. Too those protesters who do things the right way, my respect and apologies.

I no longer have even an ounce of respect for people who can not pay for a permit, plan a peaceful protest and carry it out. Any child could do it so why do these nuts destroy their own causes with violent acts and criminal activity.

If you want China's attention, do not tune in too the Olympics. It would get their attention in a big way. People won't do that though because sports are more important than people it would seem.

reply to post by Riposte


Believe me, I would love to read some books if I had the time.
The internet is just as good for doing research though.

and I guess I take what the ATS community has to say with a little more weight than you do.
I tend to believe we are working together, so sharing info instead of bashing each other tends to move towards a positive result.

reply to post by Blaine91555


I totally agree.

I guess the only thing that I dont understand is why were 90% of the Tibetans under slavery with the Tibetan govt?

is this some past issue that wont happen again if the Dalai Lama rules again?

to everyone that for some reason came on here to bash me...
why?

I havent stated that I believe in any one way.
I posted a very neutral OP
I just want to see what you guys thing about the whole subject.

Believe it or not, there are ATSers that think both ways...

so instead of just bashing, hows about you contribute...

First of all, know that I don't endorse either side of this debate. I am here learning about this important global issue myself. After a little browsing around, I noticed that most of what you will find is on the "Free Tibet" side of things. I did find this from the other side of the fence. If nothing else, it's an interesting read. Just trying to do my part to deny ignorance. Again, I don't have an opinion here, just trying to contribute more info to consider.www.index-china.com...

reply to post by Odessy


The past is not an indicator of what the future holds. The current Dalai Lama was a child when all this started. He has now embraced the rest of the world and I don't think its fair or right to assume the old ways would be resumed. Either way it should be up to the people of Tibet to decide. Not me, not you, but the people of Tibet. We basically agree.

reply to post by boomchank


I think the real issue is being overwhelmed with "Straw-man" arguments on all sides.

The real issue should be should any people be denied self-determination? Every nation's people should have a say in how they live, who rules them and what religion's they embrace. The people of Tibet and China should be free to accept or reject any religion or form of governance they wish as long as they don't tread on other's rights.

reply to post by Odessy


The story of Tibet is long and complicated. I think it is important that we not inject politcs into the understanding of her struggle. If you want an education on Tibet I strongly suggest that you read a book by John Avedon "In Exile From The Land Of Snows" it is an eleven year study on the culture of Tibet and the inner workings before the occupation by China. It goes into great detail on the motives of Chairman Mao and the PRC when Tibet was invaded.

Tibet did have many internal problems before 1959 ( blacks were still being lynched in the U.S) but the very young Dalai Lama was coming to grips with much of it. Mao and the subsequent policies from China would have the world believe that Tibet was invaded because of it's backward and brutal system, far from the truth...China needed and wanted the rich resources of Tibet. Maos great leap forward failed miserably and left China bare of trees and millions dying of starvation. Tibets food reserves were some of the first things taken, leaving Tibetans to go without.

The systematic genocide that the PRC has implimented within Tibet exposes their claims of liberating Tibet as nothing but lies and propaganda.

reply to post by Odessy

If I were you, I would have payed a visit to Tibet in stead of
browsing on internet or asking others about the truth of Tibet.
I would have seen with my own eyes how Tibetan be "oppressed",
"jailed", "tortured", "slaughtered" or how their culture be "destroyed".
if you worry about China's propaganda, you can travel alone to there
just like me.

reply to post by gs001


I am curious as to what you observed there. I have yet to see Tibet, I hope to soon, until then I'll soak up any information I can find.

Do not make the Mistake of thinking that Tibet is the inly issue with China.

Tibet is only one corner of Chinia's Triangle of Influence

Burma
The Chiniese have control of the Burma Goverment, and KILLED 1000's of Monks

Sudan
THe Chiniese support the Mulsim led goverment of Dafur, to slaughtetr Christians... for just a few years...

And now Tibet


The short sided Media, and most of the 'hot topic' protesters are ignoring these other events that china is involved with... focusing on a topic that can be summed up in two words... 'free tibet'... bah...

The world needs to wake up to China... soon... before the Olymics...



If you are looking for the truth in Tebit, you are at least heading in the right direction, with a good head on you shoulders, but do not think the greater issue surrounding China is concentraited on Tibet.

SO, the only advice i can give, is to open your eyes up to all of what China is doing... do not get bogged down in Tibet.

Originally posted by gs001
reply to post by Odessy

 

If I were you, I would have payed a visit to Tibet in stead of
browsing on internet or asking others about the truth of Tibet.
I would have seen with my own eyes how Tibetan be "oppressed",
"jailed", "tortured", "slaughtered" or how their culture be "destroyed".
if you worry about China's propaganda, you can travel alone to there
just like me.

lol well, pay for the trip and I'm there mate...

not everyone can just get up and go to Tibet.

your fortunate to have been, but dont think that its a common course people take.

Luckily, I can go on the internet and ask people like you who have been what you saw and felt... its called communication

[edit on 9-4-2008 by Odessy]

reply to post by Witness2008


thanks for that information.

I'll check into that book.

Good post
I had this same feeling the other day when i saw the banners for the protests which read "One World. One Dream. Free Tibet." and it made me think to myself i have no idea what is really going on over there and as i watched the news i just felt bombarded with feelings of having to join the fight for Tibet. Sure i have seen the protests and heard many story's but i have never really looked into it.

It may have just been the first part of that banner that triggered something in my brain and please don't bash me for this opinion but it seems awfully similar to a slogan that the NWO would use now this is a far out thought i know and has no real evidence to back it (yet) but what if we are on the wrong side of things the way i look at it the world is so tangled in mystery and lies that anything can be possible and to simply just ride this off is playing into the ignorance.

Say for example that this all escalated over the course of the Olympics which is highly likely lets just say something happens against Tibet on a larger scale then just protest bashings would you feel it justified to send troops to help in fighting China? hence causing major problems world wide.

It just feels as if all these celebrity's and politicians are just jumping on the bandwagon and playing nicely with our heart strings. And I'm sorry but i don't trust either of them considering their professions contain a lot of acting i just think we all need to take a closer look at possible reasons for why they would want us on Tibets side.

Once again this is just something to throw into the mix and think it may be something worth looking into thanks again for the thread i think it is always good to have a good look at both sides and not just go of what is drummed into us by the mainstream

now you can shoot me