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Expert: "We're brainwashing our children" about global warming

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posted on Apr, 10 2008 @ 06:18 PM
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reply to post by Johnmike
 


I guess I stepped on some toes there. Finally!

Let me guess Johnmike! You're american!?! And you watch FOX News?!?
We could argue back and forth, but I've argued with arrogant americans before, and it's basicly no use! But here it goes:

Well, let's say that we agree to disagree!
Ofcourse I agree that forrest fires have an impact on the environment, but we're actually discussing (among many other things
) if GW is man made or not! And believe it or not, factorys are pretty much man made. If you want to dicuss your "real problems", make another thread! But I'm sure someone is going to prove those "real problems" wrong also.

I do not agree that money spent on GW is the same giving it away to rich politicians. But what do I know about were our money ends up in the end? We cannot be sure about anything! But if I become overly paranoid and can't help but seeing conspiracies in everyone and everything like....well...uhm..I guess....Johnmike does, I will need somebody to slap me real hard in the face!!!! All the time!!!!

I would be careful throwing around a word like ignorance if I were you!
I'll tag you as a foe, Johnmike! Is that okey??




posted on Apr, 10 2008 @ 06:21 PM
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What on earth (pun intended) does this have to do with a moral view point? Affecting the earths climate is not a moral issue but a physical one. Either we are or are not causing it. We either do nothing (US viewpoint) or do something (the rest of the world).

Everybody is being hit with information from both sides but the skeptics are losing the argument rapidly and are resorting to ever more "dirty" tactics...like the above. Key dirty tactic words being things like "moral", "tax", "liberal", "treehugger", "socialist" (yes I have seen that one used and nearly fell of my chair oh the US deperation to invoke McCarthy), "lies" , "anti-capitalist" etc etc Never anything like: "Concern for the earth and all its citizens to ensure a fruitful future".


Well spoken my good man! Well spoken!



posted on Apr, 10 2008 @ 08:38 PM
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reply to post by Stanley Mimix
 


Originally posted by Stanley Mimix
I guess I stepped on some toes there. Finally!




Originally posted by Stanley Mimix
Let me guess Johnmike! You're american!?!

Yup.


Originally posted by Stanley Mimix
And you watch FOX News?!?

Not really.


Originally posted by Stanley Mimix
We could argue back and forth, but I've argued with arrogant americans before, and it's basicly no use! But here it goes:

I hate arrogant Americans. Arrogant people from other countries tend to be slightly more annoying, but only because of the accent.




Originally posted by Stanley Mimix
Well, let's say that we agree to disagree!

I don't like that sort of thing. It's contrary to the point of debate.

My post was basically describing two things. One, the severe uncertainty in the anthropogenic global warming theory (anthropogenic global warming theory is the scientific theory that man might be causing the earth to heat up). Two, the fact that anything devised so far to "combat" global warming wouldn't even stop man-made global warming if it existed, while doing a lot of damage to humanity.


The rest of your post is basically trolling. That is, acting like a child, refusing to debate points and instead relying on sorts of personal attacks.

Stop it, now. I can ignore this bout of immaturity, I really don't mind (I've done the same thing). Just make a new post and respond to my points, I'd be glad to work on them.


[edit on 10-4-2008 by Johnmike]



posted on Apr, 10 2008 @ 08:47 PM
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Nothing Personal


Originally posted by Johnmike
Stop it, now.

I agree, and think it would be a great idea for everyone involved to avoid taking the bait and being dragged off topic.


Our topic: Expert: "We're brainwashing our children" about global warming

Let's just stick to that, and leave unnecessary ad hominem distractions and other distasteful forms of trollery for lesser discussion boards.




[edit on 4/10/2008 by Majic]



posted on Apr, 10 2008 @ 11:40 PM
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Well, I must say that that the headline got my attention EXPERT: We're brainwashing our children" about global warming...So this Colorado state university hurricane forecaster is an expert on global warming. O.K. I'll buy that but I must say that there have been "experts" shown again and again to be funded by oil companies, coal companies etc.

exxon pays scientists and universities
And yes I get all of my news from FOX! Just kidding you can find this from about any news outlet. This is just the first one I came across looking. If need be I can provide links to plenty news outlets, not just the big names. With the same story. Although I know that for some nothing will be as good as a USA today blogger.



But lets put that aside and say that this man legitimately feels that in all his years of hurricane study he sees no merit to global warming. He has every right as a scientist to form his own opinions. The scientific community as a whole will critique his work as well as people in general. So we have a hurricane forecaster that is convinced there is no merit to global warming and not only that, if anyone teaches it it's brainwashing. O.K. fine.

Well as I am sure most people know a Nasa scientist (see I linked to CBS that time not in hopes of pleasing everyone here that's impossible just to show I look at a different sources in order to filter out the crap they all report (see britney spears))
So anyway this nasa scientist thinks global warming is being covered up. Wouldn't that be brainwashing if it was discovered to be true and you manipulated the facts? I am in no way out to prove or disprove global warming... I see how those threads get. I am sticking to the matter at hand Brainwashing about global warming

So James Hansen


a part of the Goddard Space Flight Center in Greenbelt, Maryland, Earth Sciences Division.

and


an adjunct professor in the Department of Earth and Environmental Sciences at Columbia University

I will say that NASA is pretty scientific about a lot of things and I look at this man to be pretty qualified in making his stance. (I know nasa photoshopped moon images and alot of other stuff so they can't be trusted)

We have two scientists with credentials saying completely different things, that has happened a lot throughout history. Is the earth flat or round, today we know it's round. Is global warming true or false we will know in the future some day. I think that it is worth noting though that Bill Gray decided to be vocal about his stance on global warming around 2005 he is qualified to make assessments of meteorology and atmospheric conditions.

James hansen is very qualified as well to make assessments of the same. He has been vocal on global warming since the at least 1981 and has been studying it for quite some time. Before it was a "political device used by the liberals".

So he has been at this for 20+ years and feels like people are hiding the facts. Once again wouldn't that be brainwashing? So the question is what brainwashing do you prefer?

For me I know this, oil is not going to last forever and we need to save some for NHRA to make nitromethane and see 350 mph quartemiles! The people we do buisness with to get some of our oil are NOT our friends. I live in atlanta and on hot summer days I can't walk in the city without my lungs burning (and I smoke!) from exhaust fumes. And nothing sets the city skyline off like a nice thick haze. I was born a country boy from arkansas and taught not to waste. I still like going fishing but it kind of bothers me that I can't eat fish from many locations due to mercury from coal smoke stacks (among other things). I laugh at people paying for water that comes in a bottle made from oil. I think using less of things in general is good.

So for right now, if it were my child that was getting brainwashed. I hope that it would be from the side that supports these values. The reason I say that is because you know that coal companies and oil companies at the very moment that it held to be no relation between them and global warming it's business as usual. "We need more coal power plants pumping crap into the air, and hey it's cool because we won't cook you" "we need more people to consume cheap plastic products that are use once and throw away, lord knows we love to sell them to you." "we can finally quit worrying about oil so we can do business with people who like to fly planes into our buildings and make them rich!" "to hell with alternative fuels, we will milk this teat until it's dry then get our crap together"

So to me the message behind global warming is a good one, use less, pollute less, conserve nature, find something besides oil, get out of bed with the saudis. I guess thats just me though, it seems to me a lot of people here are so caught up in denying ignorance that they worry about whether something is true or not. They never stop to think about the good it can do and the fact if it is true it would be good to start planning for it now. I guess that takes back seat because the liberal democrats are using it for a political agenda... shame on them. After all we have a republican in the whitehouse doing such a bang up job. Can I get a church and state special, hold the constitution.

BTW, I don't have kids so I don't need to worry about them getting brainwashed, just the vast majority of Americans. I do not have a candidate I like. I am an outdoorsman and love nature, if that makes me a tree hugger fine. And truth be told global warming is pretty irrelevant, we are handing out bibles to people that need condoms and people can't quit having kids. When we get 10 billion people on this rock we'll be at each others throats so bad we'll kill each other off long before we bake.



posted on Apr, 11 2008 @ 04:02 AM
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Mr.Johnmike! I was trying to show you that this discussion is basicly one argument against another. Most americans are surtain that GW is a conspiracy, while the rest of the world believe it's real, and man made! And I know the weather haven't been like this before in my country, that we have records of! Something is wrong, and if we try to do something about it, it might just make a difference! We can get rid of unnecessary power usage like leaving the lights on in rooms we're not in, for instance. We can save both power and money! Right?? No? Yes?


Originally posted by Johnmike

Originally posted by Stanley Mimix
I know that Al Gores' documentary isn't all fact, but that is besides the point!

No, that is the point! People like you, who embrace ignorance with open arms, are to blame for the widespread belief in pseudoscience.

Well, there is the word ignorance! I don't believe I'm ignorant for knowing that a documentary is not accurate. I don't think anything I hear is exactly like it actually is! Nothing is objective! Especially information from an american!

But the point about movies/documentaries is seeing the main perspective! In Gores' movie that perspective, I believe, is that something is wrong and have been for years, and we have the power to do something about it! But many people (like you, obviously) interpret it in a different way, and that might be because your country doesn't agree! They would rather use their money on a pointless war!




Like any other documentary he's just trying to make people aware of a problem that has been there for years, but have never been taken seriously!

Never been taken seriously? What is this, a joke? Global warming is a huge money maker for those who profit from it. Just look at Al Gore's bull# documentary, how much did he make from that? And he got a Nobel prize!

Give me one example of something someone doesn't benefit from?? It sounds like you're sort of jealous! Why? I really think we all benefit from taking GW seriously in the end!



His film seemed to do very little. If anything, he spread lies, fake science, and propaganda and in return, made a large profit and got a Nobel Prize.

I do in fact know that after his documentary GW has been the main topic all over the world. It's even a very much discussed topic in this forum! So, I don't think his film did nothing!



We have to focus on real environmental threats -- and there are plenty -- instead of shifting the focus onto a false, propagandized problem.

I agree that we have other problems on earth, but who disides what is real and what is a false problem?



In my opinion, everyone that believes that global warming ISN'T man made are afraid of taking responsibility of their own actions!
.....I don't give a damn what your "opinion" is......

Yeah! I'm the childish one!



By "fighting" global warming, we're hurting our economy (more starving, more poverty, more hardship) and we're making it harder to fight other, real environmental dangers.

What? How? If you're talking about american economy, I think wars and debt is a much bigger issue than GW. In the rest of the world, fighting GW is basicly money saving!


...the fact that anything devised so far to "combat" global warming wouldn't even stop man-made global warming if it existed, while doing a lot of damage to humanity.

How can it possibly do damage to humanity?? What kind of "combat" do you americans plan to use on GW?



Stop it, now. I can ignore this bout of immaturity, I really don't mind (I've done the same thing)

Yes! You just did!


I actually enjoy this debate! I really look forward to your reply, if it's immature or not!



posted on Apr, 11 2008 @ 04:13 AM
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Originally posted by Majic
Nothing Personal


Originally posted by Johnmike
Stop it, now.

I agree, and think it would be a great idea for everyone involved to avoid taking the bait and being dragged off topic.


I hope you can see that what me and Johnmike are debating about might be a bit heated up sometimes, but it's surtainly on topic! If GW is real or not, or if it's man made or not, has something to do with if it's brainwashing us and our children or not!
We'll try to keep it as on point as possible! Right Johnmike??



posted on Apr, 11 2008 @ 06:02 AM
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Originally posted by Maxmars
I know we probably disagree about the nature of research in general, and I by no means want to imply that research is a 'lost cause' - but I have, over time, begun to recognize a 'prostitution' of research centering around commercial profit and political expediency.



I think fundamentally we disagree on very little, I'm in the UK so our frames of reference are somewhat different though. I don't really care about global warming but I do care about the state of our planet. I firmly believe that without major immediate changes we are heading for an incredibly bleak future. It is clear to me that there are those who seek much more drastic solutions to the problems that we face in the future, primarily for the benefit of the few and to permit those few to have their cake and eat it. The suffering of one is a tradegy, the suffering of millions a statistic. I believe the US government is controlled to some extent by those people, as is the UK and a multitude of other places.

Though I understand all this and I understand that Gore's position on Global Warming has in some ways aided their position, what I fail to understand is why it is so difficult to comprehend that this in no way abrogates the responsibility of the individual. The answer to the questions are all there, if you do not trust a source ignore it and find one that you do, or better still explore all avenues until you are happy with the opinion that you have formed (and I don't mean YOU specifically here).

Look out at the world, it is not a very nice place, paradises exist but they are not accessible to all, they are the domain of the elites. We cannot escape and find clean air, fresh water and productive land. The age of pioneerism is gone. We need to change the way we live. All of us. We have the ability to drive this change as responsible individuals, we will get screwed along the way, but we get screwed any way, the point is to remove our own dependency on external forces to tell us how we should live. Gore took the wrong path and he didn't credit his people with the intelligence to understand the issues involved. He treated the US people like idiots and he has set sustainability back because of it.

If there is a conspiracy in relation to Global Warming and the associated agenda that does not detract from the fact we face an uncertain future. While we do not know which elements of these changes are natural or man-made what we do know is that we are placing greater emphasis on profiteerism and consumerism than we are for ensuring for the basic needs of the inhabitants of this planet.

If major changes are not implemented on the way we are using the resources of the planet, we face major and devastating famines. They will not directly effect us in the west at first, for most of us will be able to still buy food, it will just be that others have to die to feed us.

I think at the bare minimum we should, all of us, be doing is attempting to minimise our reliance on imported food stuff, on processed food and on the petro-chemical industry. We need to take responsibility for the waste that we generate and for the way in which we pay to have that waste'dealt' with. We also need to ensure that we are represented by our governments by using the means already available to us.

These changes will take generations to implement and it is already too late for some, the depopulating wars and famines are already unavoidable in some regions, but we have all the tools available to us to enact change and commence the process to break the cycle. They only control us because we allow them to, we need not fight them or their wars, we have a choice, we just need to start providing for ourselves and our own, and stop buying all the crap that we want but don't need. The binds that hold us are paper thin, as your signature attest to.

Although I don't think that we disagree at all, I think that we are looking at the problem in a different way. If we do nothing, it allows THEM to enforce it up on us. In any mass marketing ploy they will always provide for the lowest common denominator, this is what Gore most probably did. In attempting to reach all, he has alienated the part of his audience that perhaps could have driven through the changes required and led by example.

It is obvious that there are those who are making enormous sums of money and do not care about the devastation or the collatoral damage to humanity, but that should not stop us from changing, we just have to understand that the most effective means of fighting them is through economics. If we don't demand it they will stop supplying it and adapt to our new demands. As tax payers we need to ensure that we are directing how that tax is subequently spent. As consumers we have to ensure that no one is getting exploited just so we can buy a cheaper product. The power is all in our pockets we just have to learn to say no and stop expecting someone else to do it for us.

BTW I really enjoyed your posts, it helped to widen my perspective on the issues involved, thank you



posted on Apr, 11 2008 @ 10:03 AM
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reply to post by KilgoreTrout
 


Frankly, I have been questioning the fact that my position does 'fit' in the 'we don't need to do anything' frame, and I do regret that. I have absolutely no intention to every imply that we just need to 'wait' until there is a scientific consensus because I know one is not forthcoming.

I often get 'ruffled' regarding matters involving those who use media, marketing, and propaganda-style techniques to further their agenda. But it is an academic objection. And where children are involved I am very sensitive (perhaps overly so.)

By way of example I would illustrate the 'duck and cover' campaigns of the US Civil Defense days. The generated millions of dollars for television and other media concerns driving this 'notion' of safety down my generations throat - which would have been forgivable - had the creators and 'thinkers' behind the campaign actually believed the propaganda. But it is now coming to light that they knew this was a false 'security' and all it did was make the citizens think we 'shouldn't fear nuclear war or the 'mutually assured destruction' weapons stockpiling.

Today we have GW, which just as civic safety concerns were in those day - very valid issue on which to focus our attention - in my opinion - being primed and presented for the exact same kind of abuse. 'We'll save you, just give us your money.' I worry that no one will adequately oversee the 'global projects' because we have a 'heroic' team of 'do-gooders' 'on-the-job.' The simpy is too much at stake to risk 'entrusting' those who already - before the 11th hour - have begun 'sanitizing' the contradictory evidence to suit their 'inconvenient truth' rather than embrace every new scientific observation as an opportunity to better define the problem.

Now I don't know how much of what follows is conspiracy theory and how much is fact; but I have seen the 'chem trails' in the sky and I am worried - not about the possibility that people are trying to do 'bad' things, but that they might be thinking their doing a 'good' thing - based on a partial set of scientific data. What if they make it worse - what comfort will there be in saying 'we TOLD you that your data was incomplete or incorrect.' For you and I that will be cold comfort (is there a pun in there?).

I still recycle, I still switched to high efficiency personal vehicles, I consume less energy and I grow as much of my own food as my terrible gardening skills can muster. But I cannot bring myself to trust to Gore cartel and the notion that this is a 'my scientist says' vs. 'your scientist says' debate.



posted on Apr, 11 2008 @ 10:29 AM
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reply to post by shizzle5150
 


Just a point I'd like to make about funding.

Many pro GW scientists recieve funding from organisations and government grant departments with the specific agenda of proving GW exists.

On top of that, there is very little funding in the world of academia to prove GW doesn't exist, only that it does.

So, assuming that some scientists ARE being funded by oil companies, how exactly is that different from scientists funded by groups who also have vested interests in proving GW is real?



posted on Apr, 11 2008 @ 10:35 AM
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reply to post by Stanley Mimix
 


I disagree that the rest of the world think it's real - only those heavily infuenced by the mainstream media believe everything they are told about GW.

The rest of us look at the evidence and the preponderance of propaganda and believe that we are being at the very least, misled about how many real scientists accept GW is real, the scale of the problem or even whether it exists at all.

I notice that apart from the antarctic peninsula which calves massive icebergs with regularity and always has done due to its positioning, the media have been strangely quiet about the antarctic.

Of course this couldn't possibly have anything to do with the fact that antarctic ice has increased, now could it?



[edit on 11/4/2008 by budski]



posted on Apr, 11 2008 @ 02:33 PM
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Originally posted by budski
reply to post by Stanley Mimix
 

I disagree that the rest of the world think it's real - only those heavily infuenced by the mainstream media believe everything they are told about GW.

Ok, maybe not the rest of the world, but I think you get my point!

I find it very strange that you people who claim GW is just a conspiracy seem so arrogant and confident that you are right, while the rest are so very very wrong! How can you know what is right or wrong? If you do your own research, you still rely on research made by other people, don't you? Unless you go out into the field and do everything yourself! But that is impossible unless you make a timemachine, go back at least several decades and start your own research by yourself, without influence by anyone! Right?

Either side here are neither stupid, ignorant or demented! We just have different information!

There is a big difference between brainwashing and a hype!
Don't worry! The hype will end!!!



posted on Apr, 11 2008 @ 03:03 PM
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reply to post by Stanley Mimix
 


By your logic, any belief is arrogant then.

Isn't implying that you are better because you are somehow above it also arrogant?

By implying that you somehow have a better grasp of things, and have thought of things that others haven't I think you are misunderstanding the how people think.

Do you honestly believe that people haven't considered all the evidence before coming to a conclusion?

If you do, then I submit that this is the highest form of arrogance.

I also object to your xenophobic attack on US citizens - they are like people the world over for the most part and don't deserve to be condemned as a nation just because of some false preconceived notion you have in your head, which probably has little basis or foundation in the reality of the characteristics of various countries.

It's like an american thinking all brits dress in a 3 piece suit, wear a bowler hat and always carry a furled umbrella.

It is, in short, bigotry and misconceived xenophobia of the worst sort.



posted on Apr, 11 2008 @ 03:26 PM
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reply to post by Stanley Mimix
 


Originally posted by Stanley Mimix
Mr.Johnmike!

Call me John?


Originally posted by Stanley Mimix
Most americans are surtain that GW is a conspiracy, while the rest of the world believe it's real, and man made!

As a non-idiot, surely you have evidence, statistics to back up this wild assertion?

Almost every single American I've ever met has believed in anthropogenic global warming. And almost none actually knew anything about the theory, they just believed it because of the media hype.


Originally posted by Stanley Mimix
And I know the weather haven't been like this before in my country, that we have records of!

That has nothing to do with global warming. Records are broken all the time -- we actually have less wild weather in most of the United States compared to a long time ago.


Originally posted by Stanley Mimix
Something is wrong,

We have no evidence of this. As someone who's not a moron, shouldn't you see that you're making wild claims?


Originally posted by Stanley Mimix
and if we try to do something about it, it might just make a difference! We can get rid of unnecessary power usage like leaving the lights on in rooms we're not in, for instance. We can save both power and money! Right?? No? Yes?

Saving energy is great, I'm all for that sort of thing, if only to save money. But that wouldn't stop anthropogenic global warming, it's really a separate issue they just "tacked" onto the environmental movement.


Originally posted by Stanley Mimix
Especially information from an american!

Stop harassing me because of my nationality.


Originally posted by Stanley Mimix
In Gores' movie that perspective, I believe, is that something is wrong and have been for years, and we have the power to do something about it! But many people (like you, obviously) interpret it in a different way, and that might be because your country doesn't agree!

Again, it seems to me like most laypeople believe in anthropogenic global warming simply because they're told to. But once again, I don't think that we have any conclusive proof that anything is wrong. We're heating, that's known. But I haven't seen anything conclusively showing that it's an irreversible process caused mostly by human activity.


Originally posted by Stanley Mimix
They would rather use their money on a pointless war!

I guess you're trying to incite partisan bickering, or insult Americans, or something, but you're sort of wrong. Most Americans I've run into are against the war in Iraq (which is what I'm guessing you're referring to). I was never totally against Afghanistan (though I don't believe in how we're nation building now), but I was always against going into Iraq.



Originally posted by Stanley Mimix
Give me one example of something someone doesn't benefit from?? It sounds like you're sort of jealous! Why? I really think we all benefit from taking GW seriously in the end!

We benefit? The government ends up investing money in ways to fix this false problem that could be spent on other research (say, nuclear fusion or cancer research, to cite two nice examples). And they want to impose taxes and economically harmful regulations which do nothing. I'm all for trying to develop technologies that don't harm the environment, but you have to develop things that actually don't harm the environment.




Originally posted by Stanley Mimix
What? How? If you're talking about american economy, I think wars and debt is a much bigger issue than GW. In the rest of the world, fighting GW is basicly money saving!

I appreciate that you don't know much about economics, so I'll explain the jist of it. First of all, by hurting the economy of one country, you usually end up indirectly hurting others. This is especially true regarding the United States. Two, national debt isn't the big scary thing it's made into (though I don't like it).
But money saving, it is not. If we waste money going to global warming research, adopt some idiotic carbon tax like the Kyoto Protocol, or impose regulations that do nothing, we're wasting a great deal of money. That money could either be left in the economy to stimulate trade, or it could go toward developing real, environmentally friendly technologies. I'm all for science and research (in fact I think the government needs to give far more), but you have to actually develop things that are combating a real, proven problem.



Originally posted by Stanley Mimix
How can it possibly do damage to humanity?? What kind of "combat" do you americans plan to use on GW?

Carbon trading. Emission caps. Kyoto Protocol. Taxes. Wasted money developing useless technologies. It goes on and on, it's like fighting an imaginary plague.
 



posted on Apr, 11 2008 @ 04:11 PM
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reply to post by budski
 


Oh, Come On!
My good man! I finally understand your Avatar! If I "Yes it is" you will say "No it isn't", and we will keep it going forever!
I want so desperatly to comment on your points, but I dont' have the time to be stuck in the Twilight Zone!



posted on Apr, 11 2008 @ 04:32 PM
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Taking the global warming issue totally out of this equation and focusing only on the brainwashing part...are you sure any of you that are outraged about this aren't being hypocritical here?

I'm sure not all of you, but i'm betting a large percent of you "brainwash" your children on a daily basis.

How many of you tell your kids there's an Easter Bunny, Santa Claus, Tooth fairy, God, Jesus, that they'll get a cold if they go outside without a coat, one from my own childhood "don't make faces because if someone slaps you on the back your face will stay that way" and "don't pick your nose your face will cave in". Yes, the last two are humourous, but you can be sure I believed them wholeheartedly as a kid!

These are all things that can't be proven, and yet, we as parents feed this to our kids everyday.

I'm sure some will argue that they have the rights where the school doesnt...but I'm betting you didn't march into the school at Christmas time to complain about the picture little Billy coloured of Santa Claus.

So, is it only propaganda and brainwashing when you don't agree with it, or is all information, that is without fact, wrong to give to our children?

Michelle



posted on Apr, 11 2008 @ 05:23 PM
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reply to post by Stanley Mimix
 


My avatar is a personal expression only in that it represents my love of monty python - nothing more.

Although I did think it was particularly applicable to ATS.

To say other wise is to know nothing of the position I have maintained throughout my time here.

Take a look - you'll see I have always taken the same position on GW.


[edit on 11/4/2008 by budski]



posted on Apr, 11 2008 @ 06:04 PM
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Ok John! Here it goes!



Originally posted by Stanley Mimix
Most americans are surtain that GW is a conspiracy, while the rest of the world believe it's real, and man made!

As a non-idiot, surely you have evidence, statistics to back up this wild assertion?


I bet I can gather quite a nice collection of evidence and statistics if I was paid to do it!
But what I meant is I experience that every "against-GW" in this thread seem to be american (besides budski). And every american I've talked to in person recently seem to believe that GW is not real! Coincidence?


Records are broken all the time -- we actually have less wild weather in most of the United States compared to a long time ago.
- - We have no evidence of this. As someone who's not a moron, shouldn't you see that you're making wild claims?


Well, I've heard both! That the weather is the same as always and that it's totally different. I donnot have any evidence to back this up, but the weather the last 2 years in my country have been really strange! This winter have been breaking records every day, and that concerns me! And thank you for believing I'm not a moron! And in that case, we are both "making wild claims"!



Originally posted by Stanley Mimix
Especially information from an american!

Stop harassing me because of my nationality.


Oh, Come On! Didn't you see the
? It was ironic! Where's your sense of humour??


We're heating, that's known. But I haven't seen anything conclusively showing that it's an irreversible process caused mostly by human activity.

Who's been talking about an irreversible process? Why trying to reverse something irreversible?
Why argue if it's man made or not?? Let's just take responsability! Or is that too hard??



They would rather use their money on a pointless war!
I guess you're trying to incite partisan bickering, or insult Americans, or something, but you're sort of wrong. Most Americans I've run into are against the war in Iraq (which is what I'm guessing you're referring to). I was never totally against Afghanistan (though I don't believe in how we're nation building now), but I was always against going into Iraq.


I've never been bickering or insulting the american people. I'm pointing my finger at the country, not the people. The American people doesn't decide anything. The US government does! And I ain't necessarly talking about Iraq or Afganistan, but any war! Every war!


We benefit? The government ends up investing money in ways to fix this false problem that could be spent on other research (say, nuclear fusion or cancer research, to cite two nice examples). And they want to impose taxes and economically harmful regulations which do nothing.

Now, listen! This is the thing! How you in the US (again, not bickering) experience the GW hype is totally different from how people in Scandinavia and (I believe) the rest of Europe experience it! (I can't speak for Asia or Australia!) Our government did not raise taxes or are developing technology that are supposably going to to fix the GW problem. All that is happening is that schools are getting guidelines on how to save power. The same as every household and company in the country. We are being asked to recycle as much as possible and to become more aware on how we treat our environment! That's it!
And that is probably why we are on opposite sides on this debate!?! I know I would be really angry too if my government demanded more of everything and were using GW as an excuse! But that doesn't make GW untrue, just inconvenient!


Carbon trading. Emission caps. Kyoto Protocol. Taxes. Wasted money developing useless technologies. It goes on and on, it's like fighting an imaginary plague.


I feel with you my man! It cannot be easy living in your country!



posted on Apr, 11 2008 @ 07:15 PM
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Originally posted by Stanley Mimix
I bet I can gather quite a nice collection of evidence and statistics if I was paid to do it!
But what I meant is I experience that every "against-GW" in this thread seem to be american (besides budski). And every american I've talked to in person recently seem to believe that GW is not real! Coincidence?

I've seen plenty of statistics that support anthropogenic global warming, but none seem to really prove that its human activity as opposed to a natural change.

And your "Americans mostly don't believe in global warming" is too anecdotal, there's certainly plenty of "believers" in the US.


Originally posted by Stanley Mimix
Well, I've heard both! That the weather is the same as always and that it's totally different. I donnot have any evidence to back this up, but the weather the last 2 years in my country have been really strange! This winter have been breaking records every day, and that concerns me! And thank you for believing I'm not a moron! And in that case, we are both "making wild claims"!

This "record breaking" stuff isn't really global warming, even if it was real. It's normal for climates to change and records to be broken all the time. Nothing recent is a massive shift. The theory of global warming deals with an increase of the planet's mean temperature which is so far something like tenths of a degree. No records are being caused by this.


Originally posted by Stanley Mimix
Why argue if it's man made or not?? Let's just take responsability! Or is that too hard??

...Because taking responsibility for something not man made is arrogant, futile, and ignorant. I can say that mankind causes volcanoes to erupt, the Earth to turn, and the sun to shine, but it won't be true.


Originally posted by Stanley Mimix
Now, listen! This is the thing! How you in the US (again, not bickering) experience the GW hype is totally different from how people in Scandinavia and (I believe) the rest of Europe experience it! (I can't speak for Asia or Australia!) Our government did not raise taxes or are developing technology that are supposably going to to fix the GW problem. All that is happening is that schools are getting guidelines on how to save power. The same as every household and company in the country. We are being asked to recycle as much as possible and to become more aware on how we treat our environment! That's it!

I don't know what country you're in, but chances are its a signatory of the Kyoto Protocol. I really hope its not. But either way, in this country, there's frequent talks about emissions caps, taxation, carbon credit trading, regulation... and the damage this will bring to try and solve a problem that's so far from being proven is simply preposterous. Even if the theory of anthropogenic global warming was true, these measures wouldn't do nearly enough to outweigh the damage.



posted on Apr, 11 2008 @ 07:28 PM
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Originally posted by Johnmike
[... Even if the theory of anthropogenic global warming was true, these
measures wouldn't do nearly enough to outweigh the damage.



TA DA! Exactly! "Gee, uh, world?, uh, my name's Al, you got a problem - and I have the tax to fix it.

"Proof?" "You bet!" "No, no! Ignore that! They're just silly gooses!". "What did they say, I'm not right?" "I paid good money to be right - therefor I am! Look at the graphics! Nice chart, huh? It's in Technicolor!, paid good money for that."

Soon, and we are headed this way already; if you disagree - you'll be an enemy of the world!

That strange technique keeps coming up, over and over, and it gets overlooked every time!...

The global crisis of man-made Global Warming requires ACTION, in the way of a tax covering the cost of paying for some company to do something about it which isn't really important - details and all that ) WE CAN'T ALLOW THIS TO CONTINUE UNABATED ( because, the longer we wait the more likely it is that new information will invalidate this very expensive idea of taxing the whole planet to solve a problem we're not really sure CAN be solved or even understood )

(((I HATE FORMATTING )))

[edit on 11-4-2008 by Maxmars]

[edit on 11-4-2008 by Maxmars]



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