Iran proposes missile shield against U.S., Israel

PLUS - there will be no peace in iraq or israel until they are dealt with.....

Originally posted by pexx421
Taking out a president, heads of state, generals, corporate management, these things are force. Unfortunately, in countries like vietnam, palestine, similar, the people dont have force, and their only option is terror. Sadly, the united states has both force and terror, and we seem to use both equally.

Now that I have a little time to comment on this, I would just like to point out that in some cultures, terror seems to be the only thing they understand. I point to iraq as a clear example. The Iraqi's hated Saddam, especially the Shia, so where were all the insurgents willing to fight against him? They were afraid, not because of sophisticated weaponry, or well trained troops, but because of sheer terror. He used humiliation along with a brutal, torturous death against those who opposed (even if it was his imagination) him. If the US was really using terror effectively, Iraq would be a calm place in fairly short order, IMO. But our military is bound strongly by public opinion here in the US, and the insurgents know that much. Like I said, any resistance group can cause big poblems for an occupier that is tasked with winning hearts and minds AND battling insurgents. I may have quoted this part of Apocalypse Now before, but it is relevent to the point you made, so I'll quote it again...

It's impossible for words to describe what is necessary to those who do not know what horror means. Horror. Horror has a face... and you must make a friend of horror. Horror and moral terror are your friends. If they are not then they are enemies to be feared. They are truly enemies. I remember when I was with Special Forces. Seems a thousand centuries ago. We went into a camp to inoculate the children. We left the camp after we had inoculated the children for Polio, and this old man came running after us and he was crying. He couldn't see. We went back there and they had come and hacked off every inoculated arm. There they were in a pile. A pile of little arms. And I remember... I... I... I cried. I wept like some grandmother. I wanted to tear my teeth out. I didn't know what I wanted to do. And I want to remember it. I never want to forget it. I never want to forget. And then I realized... like I was shot... like I was shot with a diamond... a diamond bullet right through my forehead. And I thought: My God... the genius of that. The genius. The will to do that. Perfect, genuine, complete, crystalline, pure. And then I realized they were stronger than we. Because they could stand that these were not monsters. These were men... trained cadres. These men who fought with their hearts, who had families, who had children, who were filled with love... but they had the strength... the strength... to do that. If I had ten divisions of those men our troubles here would be over very quickly. You have to have men who are moral... and at the same time who are able to utilize their primordial instincts to kill without feeling... without passion... without judgment... without judgment. Because it's judgment that defeats us. -Kurtz

gotta admit, the chance that we are bombed by the USA are far greater than a missile launch from Iran

Hmm...terrorism is defined as harm or threat of harm to civilian populace in order to change government policies. That is terrorism i believe, and as such, no technically I do not believe we are necessary practicing a "terrorist" war in Iraq, which is not to say that our blundering and lack of care have not led to terror, fear, heartbreak and hatred being instilled into our iraqi brothers and sisters. But i dont think that those suicide bombers fit into the mold your quote describes either. I dont think most of them are the moral and yet strong cold hard killers doing a job to rid themselves of us. I think, i may be wrong, but i imagine that most of them, as in palestine, are people so filled with loss and hopelessness from seing their children, brothers sisters, mothers and fathers, blown to pieces in front of them, from seeing their whole lives and world destroyed, who feel they have nothing to live for now, and decide they want to die, and maybe take someone they feel is linked to responsibility with them. And some yes, are the foolish brainwashed puppets, full of zeal for their 42 virgins (why would anyone even want one??) who ache for martyrdom, but first i think they are minority, and secondly, both groups are very sick and not representative of general humanity, or general arabs. People ARE the same everywhere. We may have some small differences, but we all want to live productive lives, feed our familys, provide futures for our children. We all have the same emotions and experiences of love, hate, fear, lust, joy. Most of us have better things to do than hurt other people, and most of us are horrified of the idea of taking meaningless life.

reply to post by TheOracle


Please explain what leads you to honestly believe that. I'm assuming you're somewhere in western Europe, how can you post something like that and not say you're kidding?

reply to post by pexx421


I wasn't meaning to say I believed the terrorists to fit that quote. More to say that if we're not prepeared to do what is necessary to put an end to the resistance once and for all, then we need to leave. I'd prefer we leave personally. I just think, the main problem there is the religious jihadists from other countries since the Iraqi insurgents seem pretty willing to talk for the most part. The jihadists are more than willing to, and do kill just as many innocent Iraqis as the US does. The constant crossfire has to end if the cycle of revenge for the loss of innocent family is to stop. I think we need to use what horrifies them, not simulated drownings, or naked dogpiles, with a general assurance they will live if captured. I mean executing them in a way in which they believe they will not get what they want in the afterlife. Making them fear being caught by the US as much as they feared being caught by Saddam. We can't go into that culture of fear, with our soldiers being bound to PC western rules of engagement, and expect to control them. Sectarian violence in Iraq was zilch when Saddam was in power, Islamic extremist groups were zilch too. He knew exactly how to control the people of their culture, and the results were clear. We cannot win the way we are fighting, and since we're not going to do what's necessary, we need to leave, or many more innocent Iraqis are going to die in the crossfire.

[edit on 12-4-2008 by 27jd]

americans are not bright - that is why they have no say -

they are nothing more than tolerated outisde their borders.

Inside -they are rulers of the world - their own world-


Europe-asia-oceania- we just luagh while you bang on about being world leaders - your not a fly on a ca,els dickl----

and in such ways do people often become that which they hate most. Just as Some israelis remember nazi germany when they walk through palestine.

i often wonder what people think winning in iraq means. Do they expect that at some point, all the iraqi's will drop their weapons and say "ah, we were wrong, welcome americans, come in, pass whatever laws you like, take whatever booty and oil you want, and lets have tea sometime"...or is it when we have finally killed enough that they no longer resist as we try to push through draconian oil divisions such as the hydrocarbon law? exactly what are we meaning when we say "win" there. Saddam is out of power....there are no weapons of mass destruction. Right now, it seems like there is a war for power among the different sects....how can we be involved in another countries civil war? Is that the same as if we divided into several different groups of states over here, all vying for power over the others, and russia or china decided to come in and take a hand in deciding who would be OUR new government?? We talk about the violence due to saddam's absence....i dont see that, and if you look at history, i dont think you will either. In the last 200 years the middle east has had many disagreements among each other, but they still managed to live in relative peace....and when i say peace i mean no arabic countries attacked any other with casualties even CLOSE to what is mounting in iraq and afghanistan. That being the case...i dont see this violence as tied to saddams absence....i see it tied to america's involvement. If we stay, the violence will go on at this level or worse for at least another 5-10 years. If we stay, it will be over in i think 2 at max. Just my thoughts, but from the fact that i was against the war from the start, and knew from the beginning that all we were fed about saddam and 9/11, and wmd was BS, i think that makes my thoughts more valuable than anyone in our government.

reply to post by pexx421


Again, I agree. Winning, in this case, means the violence stops. I believe what I said to be true. We either become monsters and truly scare them into submission, or we leave. I made it clear what I'd prefer, and I was against the invasion of Iraq from the begining as well.

Originally posted by audas
americans are not bright - that is why they have no say -

No say in???

they are nothing more than tolerated outisde their borders.

Yet people literally die just to migrate to the mainland US.

America, unlike Europe, has a growing population, thanks largely to immigration from other nations (even European ones).

Inside -they are rulers of the world - their own world-

America, does in fact lead the world in many areas.

Europe-asia-oceania- we just luagh while you bang on about being world leaders - your not a fly on a ca,els dickl----

Which explains why america "leads" and you all simply "laugh."

Jealous much?

[edit on 13-4-2008 by West Coast]

West coast, i think some of your info is dated. You must remember that america is MASSIVE compared to european countries as a whole, and per land area we are actually not the lead anymore as far as people immigrating here. In fact, lots of people who were immigrating to the US before are actually immigrating back home now due to the drop in the dollar, which is going to get worse yet, causing even more immigration out of the US in the near future.
As far as leading the world in many areas....well, thats not exactly true either. Russia long ago surpassed us for oil technology, quantum physics has moved to europe, and manufacturing here has been destroyed. Many other countries practice advanced and different modalities of medicine that we wont even recognize here...and Japan surpasses us in electronic and computer technology. In fact, i think the only thing we are advanced in here is defense technology, and considering how much we spend on defense, that is not really a plus, its more like a minus. On the plus side, our wine industry has jumped leaps and bounds in the last 30 years, but thats not gonna really make the whole world do cartwheels or keep us in the game. Even our democracy is not the best, as several other countries have much more representative democracies with much higher turnouts, where the president is actually answerable to the people, and often have had minority presidents for decades now.

Let Iran build, let the US build, let Russia build, and let China build. That way everyone has their own favorite toy and the world is once again in a Mexican Standoff Cold War with the only assured thing being mass destruction by mass suicide.

I mean I served with Cold War missilbe and bomber forces for a long time and they never did me any harm. My therapy is going well and my meds are paid for by the VA soooooooooo........................

reply to post by pexx421


I just wanted to point out if the Israelis really acted like Nazis, the Palestinians would all be dead by now and Israel would have probably conquered most of the Middle East, especially the oil fields in Saudi. Thats if they really acted like Nazis.

If you really want to rank or compare them to someone, I would put Israel somewhere between the UK/Northern Ireland and Turkey/Kurds but no where near Nazis or even the level of violence exhibited by the Chinese on Tibet, Russia on Chechnya, the US in Iraq, or Serbia vs. Albanians.

If the Israeli goverment really acted like Nazis, Gaza would of been leveled like the Warsaw Ghetto and the people there exterminated, but the Israelis are nothing like Nazis. Nothing like them at all.

comparing israel to nazi's is not MY contribution, it is in the words of jewish israeli scholars who visited palestine and were IN the concentration camps of germany. If we are not to take their word against their own government, whos can we take?

outstanding Jewish Israeli scholar Dr Ilan Pappe has described what is happening in 2008 as a “Gaza Genocide” and a “West Bank ethnic cleansing” (see: here).

Outstanding Jewish American linguistics scholar Professor Noam Chomsky of MIT describes the Occupied Palestinian Territory (OPT) as a highly abusive “Prison” – noting that half of the 4 million inmates are Children. Others use the term “Concentration Camp”, noting that we have to go back to the Nazi era, post-war US atrocities in Asia and Apartheid atrocities in South Africa to see routine, violent, deadly, military policing of Indigenous People in Concentration Camps.

Indeed outstanding Jewish South African Ronnie Kasrils - leader in the fight against Apartheid and now a South African Government Minister – has described Apartheid Israel rule over the Holy Land thus: “Israel 2007: worse than Apartheid”. ----------quoted from media with conscience article


there ya go. there are many more jewish scholars and people of import saying similar too, i can find em if you dont believe, or you can look em up yourself.

Originally posted by pexx421
West coast, i think some of your info is dated. You must remember that america is MASSIVE compared to european countries as a whole, and per land area we are actually not the lead anymore as far as people immigrating here.

Edit, ERR... I was a bit to quick on the gun with my initial post, Canada does have quite a significant surplus when it comes to legal immigration, but it does not hold a candle to legal immigration to the United States. More Immigrants Came To U.S. Since 2000 Than During Any Other 7-Year Period.

After 9/11 happened, US immigration laws tightened up. One could argue that it would in fact be a whole lot more if US immigration laws were a bit more lax.

Note, that however, if illegal immigration was taken into account, arguably the US would exceed every nation in immigration with ease.

The point I was making, was that Europe's population is stagnating, and in many cases, shrinking. By 2050 the US is estimated to surpass the entire population of Europe with a population of 438 million (according to the pew research center). If those growth trends continue to hold true, the US will have a population of 1 Billion by 2075. So the US will continue to see high immigration in its favor for the foreseeable future.

In fact, lots of people who were immigrating to the US before are actually immigrating back home now due to the drop in the dollar, which is going to get worse yet, causing even more immigration out of the US in the near future.

A weakening dollar has actually made America prime real-estate for foreigners looking to buy cheap, and become a US citizen, if anything, a weakened dollar has helped US immigration, much like it has with US tourism, which is a $400B+ a year industry.

As far as leading the world in many areas....well, thats not exactly true either. Russia long ago surpassed us for oil technology, quantum physics has moved to europe, and manufacturing here has been destroyed.

You merely cherry picked 2 items out of one hundred that could easily be mentioned in contradicting fashion, to your initial claims.

Please, provide sources, not that I am discounting your claims, but it does help your creditability, while simultaneously teaching others a few things.

I would like to point out, that the US does in fact lead in the vast majority of scientific fields, as well as the technological fields. The US accounts for 31-37% of the worlds spending on R&D, and has more scientists and researchers employed then the EU combined. Furthermore, the brain drain is still very much in Americas favor, even today.

As for outsourcing manufacturing jobs, the EU is the leading source of outsourced jobs, thanks in large part to an over priced euro. Airbus is having a harder time competing with Boeing because of and over priced euro, etc. A higher currency isn't exactly a "good thing."

America is also evolving economically, to a point, where as todays American economy is commonly referred to by economists as a "post manufacturing economy."

Many other countries practice advanced and different modalities of medicine that we wont even recognize here...and Japan surpasses us in electronic and computer technology.

Made predominantly with American computer chips.

Regardless, the US is the clear undisputed leader when it comes to the next technological revolution, involving Biotechnology's, along with Nanotechnologys.

It is no misconception that the US is some 15% more innovative than Japan. Apple (I pod, and I phone have continuously beat Sony, along many other competitors who are unable to field a superior item) and Google are a good example of this (You could also throw Microsoft in the mix as well). Regardless, America, over the years, has been able to cope, and in many cases, evolve its technological superiority, while japan has had problems doing the same.

In fact, i think the only thing we are advanced in here is defense technology, and considering how much we spend on defense, that is not really a plus, its more like a minus.

Mr. Pexxx, the world has benefited quite greatly from US military inventions. Arguably, the world is a more centralized place in the way we communicate because of it (i.e. the internet).

Medical technology also benefits from military innovation, which has been proven to be historically true.

And there are many more exceptions that can be listed.

America also spends the most in Research and development (as was already pointed out). We spend the most in Nano tech research, and Bio tech research, and lead in many of their source applicants as well.

On the plus side, our wine industry has jumped leaps and bounds in the last 30 years, but thats not gonna really make the whole world do cartwheels or keep us in the game. Even our democracy is not the best, as several other countries have much more representative democracies with much higher turnouts, where the president is actually answerable to the people, and often have had minority presidents for decades now.

You need to wake up, and join the real world. In it, you will find that we are far from perfect.

[edit on 15-4-2008 by West Coast]

our growing population is not necessarily a good thing. Across the board among all societies, as the level of education rises, the level of procreation drops, and with good reason. So what does that say that american population is increasing at an ever expanding rate? Its quite obvious our education level is dropping a bit here.
As to our weakening dollar bringing more investors in, well, yes, lots of foreigners are buying up our crashing business and such, but most of them are doing it from the security of their own country. Most countries are beginning to see america as a sinking ship and fewer of their people will be immigrating here within the next few years, even WITH the availability of more purchasing power for them. Especially in light of our new policies of torture and civil rights restrictions for anyone the president deems "an enemy" and with the rioting and societal collapse i think is likely in the near future here. Maybe im overestimating the financial carnage going on, but thats how i see it. People came to work here BECAUSE the dollar was strong and their pay went further...but i work in the medical field and can tell you that people that originally came from canada because they made more from dollars than loonies, they are going home now, and im sure the same can be said for many wage earners. Yes, we might be attracting more BUSINESS owners, but that has never been our problem....we have PLENTY of opportunistic greedy business owners here....what we are missing is a skilled working class to prop them up, and to spend.
As far as that crap about "a strong dollar not necessarily being good" and us being a "post manufacturing economy" that is merely the elitists way of convincing us that its ok that they are destroying our dollar first off, and secondly that any society can exist based solely off the work and sweat of other countries which is silly. Are the blue collar workers in our country (thats 90% of us) supposed to just dissappear because we dont need them anymore? Theres certainly not enough executive and service jobs to fill in those niches that are disappearing. That garbage belongs in the same pile as "trickle down economics" where we have all seen that the only place the top 15%'s money trickles to is their own investments and bank accounts, as the lobby to pass legislation keeping all the money trickling one direction, and thats up. Since 1970 our GDP has DOUBLED and yet the purchasing power of the middle and lower class has stayed the same, and anyone who tries to tell you that this is somehow a positive thing, and that the rich making money helps us all out....well they are obviously trying to sell you something....and most americans are sold.
As to why i picked those two specific industries, its because they happen to be, in my eyes, to of the greatest import at this point in time. I did also point out medicine though, but also in my mind is the fact that advancement and production for american corporations doesnt necessarily mean benefits for american peoples. Maybe it did back in the 50's and 60's where tax from the corp. world propped up americas economy at 70-90% but now the corps pay less percentage of tax than your average secretary. They are international bodies, and while we fund their research with our tax dollars, the benefits are spread around the world and the profits are kept by the top. In my mind that doest speak to me of american accomplishments, its the accomplishments of greedy independent robber barons. Ok, so i wax dramatic, but these are my thoughts.
As to other leaders being answerable to their people, much as we criticize the french, when we went to war in iraq, their president joined. Their people disagreed, voted, and he was out of office, and they were out of the war. That could NEVER happen in the United States. THAT is democracy in action.