Iran proposes missile shield against U.S., Israel

Originally posted by LLoyd45
First of all, I never asked your opinion.

Yes you did, when you posted on a PUBLIC FORUM. Don't wany my opinion? Then take it to U2U. I can't find anywhere in the opening post where your opinion was asked for, yet you gave it anyway.

Secondly, I could care the least what you think.

That's good. It would be a bit strange if you did.

And lastly you sound like a drone that continuously spouts the same old tired party line. You have no originals thoughts of your own, just those someone else has spewed a million times before you.

I can't believe you said that. And what party would that be?

I own several firearms, and I know how to use and maintain all of them.

Sorry, I just don't believe you.

The M16 is an unreliable weapon at best, that requires constant cleaning and lubrication to keep it working. In adverse conditions where such high maintenace is not a possible, you'd be better off using it as a club.

That BS right there is why I don't believe you. Are you saying an AK doesn't need cleaning and lubrication? That's news to me, and I own one. Again, please explain why you think an M16/M4 is an unreliable weapon. What is your personal experience with them?

The 5.56 may be a more accurate round than the 7.62x39, but has poor penetration and stopping power. You can also carry more of it, but you'll need it too.

Range and accuracy are very important if you want any kind of flexibility as to what kind of setting you're fighting in. Sure, and AK is great for close street battles, but if you get drawn out into desert terrain or the like, you're going to be in piss poor shape against those who can accurately hit you from a distance. The penetration and stopping power has no bearing if it can't hit what you're trying to stop and penetrate.

You probably would prefer an AR..

Actually, I'd prefer BOTH, in one gun...

en.wikipedia.org...

I saw this gun featured on Future Weapons, it completely breaks down in like 3 steps, the barrel can be switched to fire 5.56 AND 7.62 rounds, for special forces who go covertly go behind enemy lines and don't want to leave 5.56 shells behind to announce they were there. And it can be completely submerged in sand and still fire without a jam.

[edit on 11-4-2008 by 27jd]

reply to post by pexx421



Desperate and dying people? The Palestinians are bad off, but Gaza is not Darfur, Tibet or even Kurdistan. I simply don't understand why people ignore Darfur, Tibet, and the Kurds, but are quick to say look at the Evil Jews killing poor innocent Hamas freedom fighters. Half the time I wonder if the Palestinians were in Tibet no one would care but put Tibetans in Gaza that have problems with Israel, then the whole world would say look at the Evil Jews killing poor innocent Tibetans. While at the same time Palestinians would be slaughtered by the Chinese and the world could care less.

A good example that actually proves this Anti Israel/anti Jewish bias was in Lebanon last year when the Lebanese military killed numerous Palestinians and laid waste to a Palestinian refugee camp. Even the Palestinians noticed the difference. They were upset that no one was paying any attention to what was happening to them in Lebanon. No one ever said look at the Evil Lebanese killing the Palestinians. Yet if Israel does anything to combat terror and not even on the scale of what happened in Lebanon or for that matter what the the Turks do to Kurds, Sudanese do to Darfuris, the Chinese do to Tibet, Israel is called Monsters but those others are not.

I say Hypocritical Biased Bull Manure.

When I was in the Army I questioned everything. I questioned why we trained for war with the Soviets, when the Soviets fell a decade prior. I questioned why we had a push broom that cost $100 in the motorpool. I questioned why we spent so much time guarding an oil refinery in Iraq and making sure power was getting to it from a powerplant. I questioned why do cooks for KBR at the chow halls make more than twice as much money as the soldiers who fight and risk their lives in combat. I asked so many freaking questions that I made a number of people quite mad.

As I began to research and study history and humanity, I realized my idealizations were fantasies. This nation is a good example of fact and fantasy mixed up. The American Revolution was executed by an Aristocratic Elite that people remember as the founding fathers. Thomas Jefferson and Thomas Paine had different Ideals than the others, they wanted an America ruled by everyone not just the Elite. The French Revolution was exactly what they wanted, a commoners Revolt. The other founders looked at the French Revolution as if inmates took over an asylum. France was in chaos. America was Never Ever intended to be like France was. France had showed the world what it was like to go from Monarchy to "liberty" overnight and it was insane. Thats why we are a Republic and not a Democracy. The People can be just as much of a tyrant as a single dictator. Plato even wrote about this over 2000 years ago. We are intended to have a division and balance of power not only between branches, the federal and states, but between The People and government itself. Jeffeson and Paine all had ideals that have never really existed here. Other places have tried and Chaos ensued.

Thats why I say there are Two Americas. One is a Fantasy, an ideal in the mind of Jefferson and Paine that has never existed, but people think existed as if there was some glorious golden era in our past where states had more power than the central government or people went by the Constitution word for word. That has never existed.

The other America is the Real America, the one where Alexander Hamilton, Henry Clay, and others like them laid the foundations for a powerful and wealthy nation. A nation that conquered a good chunk of North America. A nation with a strong central government. A nation with a Central Bank. A nation of Industry. A nation with a powerful military and not afraid to use it.

So thats why I say, what are nation does has not changed since Washington crushed the Whiskey Rebellion. What we do is what we have always done. Even though we have done alot of bad things, we have never done anything on the scale of the Spanish, Portuguese, British, Russians, Chinese, Japanese, French or Germans. Our worst atrocities are drops in a bucket compared to what those other nations have done in their history.

Yet we are called "fascists". People need to look in the Mirror. That reflection is humanity. Humans have been doing this since we first appeared. Out of all the empires that have existed on this planet, we have been the most benign. We have brought humanity into an age undreamed of by our ancestors. An age where a single weapon could destroy a city in a blink of an eye, an age where a human has set foot upon the Moon, an age where we can now communicate and share information in real time across the earth with text, audio and video.

Like it or not thats who we are. Thats human nature. We make a much more benign Hegemon than the Soviets, Nazis, Japenese, China, or even Victorian Britain. So as much as everyone hates us and wished we would fall, we are much better than the alternative. Utopian dreams where everyone lives in some bizarre anarchist commune of peace and tranquility is pure fantasy. As long as humans live on the face of the earth, there will be war, there will be conquests, the powerful will take advantage of the weak, and people will dream of a better world that can only exists in their heads.


That pretty much explains my view on the world and why I do what I do.

ok, here was one of my sources for the afghan timeline, www.us-uk-interventions.org/Afghanistan_fullchron.html but you can read about it many places, as american history is not totally hidden from us...we are just well distracted. here is the original interview of zbigniew brzezinski which is quite revealing www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=7718
now i certainly dont praise any arming of extremist resistance forces for terrorism....but i dont consider hamas in that light...after all, who is arming them? God? their weapons are mostly homemade devices. There is a difference between a group being armed to defend their own territory and a group being armed to wage a war of aggression. The difference is easy to spot in history such as when we armed the samozas against the sandanistas, also when we supported and armed the military dictatorships in el salvador, columbia, etc. The opposite would be i think, vietnam, who originally asked for our aid in their war of independence against france. We wouldnt give it, even though they had based their declaration of independence and their constitution off of ours...and so they eventually they turned to the ussr for help. This is an example of a group being funded to protect themselves, and after we went in and destroyed their country, and left them destitute, we reneged on the millions in aid we had promised them in reparations, then left it for RUSSIA to finally go in and show them how to find oil, as our technology was inadequate and we mistakenly told them no oil was there and they had no natural resources worthwhile. So....how often have WE ever gone into a country and shown the people how to find a natural resource...and then not tried to take it all, or force them to privatize??

ok Dyepes, i agree, we should not sit by and do nothing. And we dont sit back and do nothing! Generally, if there is money or resources or expansion of hegemony involved, our government will get involved and say "oh, its for the poor people", as in vietnam, when we went in and killed 2 million vietnamese to save them from themselves, or like...now when we are in iraq, and have killed 500000 children prior to the war through embargos (good thing we saved all those children from growing up inder saddams evil...who knows what might have happened to them then!!) and now have 1.2 million civilian deaths since the war started in order to save them from saddam's evil regime ...which ended a few years ago. Ok, so thats 1.7 MILLION people now who are dead DEAD directly due to our actions. You can dress it up any way you like, say "oh, well they shouldnt have been there when we were bombing" or some such crap, but the fact is I think thats a bit more than darfur. I think its more than rwanda. I dont hear people saying "oh, but tribes in africa have been killing each other forever, so its not really the HUTU's fault all those tsootsies died, thats just what happens when governments collapse"
As for minimizing the bad guys....come on...do you really think thats what we do? Unless you consider arming and training Pinochet, the Shah, Bin Laden, Saddam, the Contras, Mobuto, the Khmer Rouge, the list goes on through our history, and to today. So we dont stand by as a woman gets her purse snatched...we either use that as an opportunity to kill the guy, as we've been wanting to kill him for a long time, or we help the guy snatch the purse because we know he'll share the spoils with us. But if theres no motivation for us...yes, then we'll watch him snatch the purse, rape the woman, whatever else he wants to do.

and now mikeboy....you are right, gaza is not Tibet, Darfur, or Kurdistan, but really its not that far off either. I have friends who are jewish, and i have friends that are palestinian, and from hearing stories on both sides, it seems to me that yes, the palestinians on the whole have horrible lives and living conditions Directly due to the actions of jewish people, where most of the jewish people just use racism and the shield of anti-semitism to defend their attacks upon the palestinians. Also There are many jewish isrealis who vehemently protest the zionist occupation of palestine, stating that it reminds them personally of the german ghettos and smacks of WWII. These are comments from Jewish people who were THERE. And yet there is very little criticism in the palestinian side for palestinian actions. Not because the palestinians are more racist than the jewish, or because they ALL think killing jewish people is right...but because on the ground they know (all of them know) what a one sided battle it is, and that on the palestinian side its a battle for their homes and right to self determination, and on the jewish side its a battle for more land, resources, and domination. The reason attention is paid to the jews killing palestinians, is that....NO attention is payed to the jews killing palestinians. There, think about that for a minute. Everyone knows that darfur is wrong, and there is a general consensus that TIBET and Kurdistan is wrong. But the Isrealis in U.S. media are always, ALWAYS painted as the victim in the palestinian conflict, and thats far from unbiased reporting. In fact, most americans have no clue of the history of the isreali/ paleistinan conflict, or even any clue what conditions are really like there. Ive met palestinians and they dont want to kill any jews. Ive met jews and they dont want to kill palestinians. But the zionist government IS a racist nationalist regime trying to dominate the region it think, and the palestinians are fighting for their survival. This is the impression i have gotten from reading several books on the issue, and talking to people on both sides. So, yeah, you hear from people about how wrong isreal is, and i think its largely to ballance the media bias towards isreal....as ive said, MSM very rarely focuses on palestinian conditions or righteousness, only on israeli.
And i agree that america is the same we have always been, but that same is nothing like people think. It is a non representative government, where the wealthy minority make the choices and the rest are led along by convincing if possible, but by force if needed. Fascism is when corporations combine with government, and that is largely what is growing here in america. Shady backroom deals are the norm on capitol hil, and tons of money are transfered from taxpayer to corporate elite all without the general knowledge or say so of the common man. Chosen for us are which rights are to be sacrificed for our security, and also which medicines we are allowed to take, and which we are FORCED to take. And lastly we have BUSH, practically a one branch government, with the power to wage war on his own will, to pass legislation restricting our rights, even against the will of congress, and to legislate putting elections off indefinitely in event of emergency. Oh, and also to criminalize free speach...all these things have been done, and what country do we live in? In truth looking back through history, america has been at war with more countries than ANYONE ELSE excepting perhaps genghis khan or alexander. And we have killed more people in shorter amounts of time than any other government ever. We killed 500000 philipinos, 2 million Vietnamese, 750000 cambodians, a few hundred thousand laosians, maybe 1 million jap, 1.2 mill iraqi's, and i cant even find numbers for afghanistan. This small sample doesnt begin to include those dead due to american sponsered terrorrism.

Wotttt a missile sheild?


im sure it will be a waste of money and will probly be usless if a war was to come nocking, its just iran being iran and getting that little woodern spoon out again

why dont thay just stop supporting terroists and arming terroists and help to fix the problems in there regions, and stop adding to the problems, as far as i can tell we/western forces was not hostile to them first and nore have we taken any hostages like thay have yet, i mean there just acting like a little kid up to no good....

sit down iran or get put down imo

In fact, the united states is the largest state sponsor of terrorism in the world. We have paid and trained terrorists in the middle east, in africa, in south america, in russia, in cuba, and have meddled in elections and media all over the world, even in our allies countries. We have forced cleansing of candidates we didnt like from italian and french elections, as well as of course, venezuela, the middle east, africa. This is a regular practice for us. Our GREAT centralized banking system, with the IMF has forced desperate countries to pay exorbitant interest for loans, and to privatize their whole series of natural resources and open themselves up to untaxed "free trade" forcing their people to be perpetually stuck at third world status, and that is what "globalization" is all about.
We are no longer a nation of industry, in fact, most of the world has few products with the good ole "made in the USA" logo on it because we have a miniscule manufacturing base here. Our largest employer in the US is our government, followed closely by our medical industry. Several generations ago, one man could work at a blue collar factory job, support a family of 7-9, and consider it a life worthwhile, while today, 2 adults working at median per capita range (28k) must struggle to pay all their bills even with one or two children, and most often feel hastled and tired. And thats BEFORE this last 60% drop in the dollar under bush. Our history has been one of class wars, with the top generally winning, and the bottom usually being tricked into thinking they are getting a deal, and this has extended largely to most countries that we have taken in interest in....we dont export democracy by any means, mostly we export corporate elitist domination, and impose serfdom upon the lowerclass of any countries we get involved in. This is not debated, its right there in history. YOu can look up any countries our government gives large funding to, and by and large most have a SEVERE wealth gap between the top and the bottom.
Its a shame that with all these advances as you said, the man on the moon, the nuclear power, etc, that we have yet to formulate a government with an advanced sense of humanity. The capitalist based system is based upon the idea that greed will regulate its self, and with our current collapse we can see the lack of merit in that idea, specially combined with the fact that the greedy are voting to bail themselves out with our money while the average citizen left destitute is on his or her own.
Of course i realize much of this article and the last two are one sided, but it is my inference through my studies that while our civilians may have done much good around the world, our government is responsible for very much less. Indeed, the only times i can see our government truly pushing legislation for civil rights, for the good of the people, for helping others, is generally only with MASSIVE outcry from the population. Indeed the civil rights movement only happened with willingness to sacrifice life, liberty, and the persuit of happiness on bahalf of the people against their government, fighting for the rights of everyone else. Indeed, our police and military have imprisoned, fired upon, killed and disgraced many who were fighting only for the betterment of their fellow man.
And lastly if we look to the voting history of the U.N. (which is available if you look hard) across the board through history, on issues of human rights, of expanding freedom, of helping commoners, and anti nuclear proliferation, almost all the votes go the same way, with the majority for and 2 or 3 against, and among those 2 or 3 are always the United States, and isreal.

reply to post by pexx421


I agree with you on many things you say. However, like you admitted, it comes across as one sided. If you took the time to study, I'm quite sure you could come up with a long list of wrong doings and mass killings connected to just about every major, influential government throughout the history of the world. Does it excuse ours? Not at all. But like MikeBoyd said, it's the nature of the beasts we are. It's easy to portray our country in the worst light when all that is listed are the negatives, and you imply that the bad things done by the governments other countries, were mostly done with good intentions. It all depends on your perspective. I tend to believe that all governments act in their own greedy interests. As an individual, I would love to see a world without wars or greed. I'm sure just about everybody except those at the very top would, but somehow, they always win out. Maybe, one day, evolution will step in and remove people's natural tendency to want to kill things that oppose them.

Britt, dont be silly. we overthrew their popular government, at the point when they were one of the most progressive and open of arab countries, installed a dictator into power and led to their fundamentalist revolution. Since then we have armed people to fight them, kept them under constant economic constraints, and kept up a steady stream of rhetoric against them. Id say we've been in economic war with them almost as much as we have with cuba, though they have done pretty well for suffering under the negative attentions of the most powerful country in the world. As to kidnapping we sacked the iranian embassy in iraq, and there was no outcry over that, the "kidnapping" of brittish in iranian waters was obviously in retaliation to that. So I'd have to say, yes, western powers did indeed meddle first and i think that Iran reasonably fears too much for its existence to just pretend its business as usual in light of the fact that american media and releases are gearing up towards Iran the same way they geared up towards iraq prior to the iraq war.
If you look far enough back most countries have good reason to be distrustfull of the united states. Early 1900's we had american troops in moscow trying to pressure our candidates to power as the red russians and white russions were vying for control. In China we were pressing our agenda there as Chiang kai shek against mao ze dong, these are just regular examples of how we have regularly pushed our agenda's in other countries despite what their own populaces may have wanted, and this form of control over peoples self determination definitely causes resentment. And, unfortunately, looking back you cant point out that we did it with good reason because often the results were nothing short disastrous for the people whos country we meddled in. Thanks for your uninformed views though, they are a good lesson on human nature, and our inclination to judge and comment on things we know nothing about as if we are experts. See, everything can be a learning experience! : )

ah, no make no mistake. I know Ussr had their own reasons for arming vietnam, and im sure they enjoyed seeing the results. Indeed, i think very rarely through history has there EVER been a war fought for other than money or power. Perhaps when vietnam went into cambodia to take the khmer rouge out of power.... aside from that there are none others i have ever seen. Indeed, im pretty sure that even the world wars were fought mostly due to self preservation...and mutual defense contracts. The difference here is singular, my position and criticism mainly of U.S. extends from the fact that I and my friends and family fund it, against my will. I feel badly about horrors and terrors done in Any country, and would certainly oppose them in any way i could, but i am VERY angry about ones done in my name, with my money. Physician heal thyself means you must first clean and restore your own temple before you can go to clean and restore anyone elses, this is my country, and THIS is where i can make a difference. One of the philosophies I learned in Buddhism is to take care of those directly around you, and as they heal and begin to help those around them, the kharma (or what have you) will radiate and spread in that way. Another way of looking at it is to hear Jesus saying "how can take the speck from anothers eye, when the plank is in your own" and so i refrain from heaping my criticism from other countries until we have healed our own.

reply to post by pexx421


I understand what you're saying, but it's quite a tricky proposition to preserve ourselves in such a violent world, without being violent ourselves. The buddhist-like philosophy you speak of, can only bring world peace if the ALL people embrace it together, otherwise, the passive resistance will be seen as weakness and quickly devoured. The world has to be tired of all the death and corruption collectively, we have to stop dividing ourselves in every way possible, through nationality, organized religion, etc. or those in power will keep using those things to put us against each other for their gains.

i agree, so one of my purposes in speaking is to first make people confront the truth....that the world is a rough dangerous place, no less so our government, because we can only move forward once we have stopped living in a dreamworld of "america's idealism and humanity"

reply to post by 27jd
I'm tired of bickering with you on this thread and wasting forum space, so let's just agree to disagree on the topic of the Middle East. You have your opinion, and I have mine. Personally, I don't want to be responsible for having the thread closed.

For your information though, I'm not anti-American, I simply don't agree with all the actions our government has taken. Being an American that's my right, just as it's your's to agree with them.

oh, and hey, dont get me wrong. i embrace buddhism and i salute nonviolence. But one thing i have also learned through history is that nonviolent resistance to government power is crushed with force. And so it is only with force as an option that people are able to get true change for better accomplished. The only time in history that nonviolence ever arguably accomplished anything was perhaps gandhi's India, and of course all nonviolent figureheads get assassinated, as did he. I practice martial arts and i work in psyche hospitals, and i meet peoples violence with force, not violence, and there is a difference. Violence is destructive and chaotic, uncontrolled force directed at a foe with no force pulled or strings attached (per my definition). Force, on the other hand, is measured accurate strikes to specific effective targets to accomplish a specific goal and minimize damage to a point that is no more than necessary. Hence, carpetbombing is violence and terrorism. Rape and robbery is violence and terror. the twin towers, hiroshima, suicide bombings, all these are violence and terrorism. Taking out a president, heads of state, generals, corporate management, these things are force. Unfortunately, in countries like vietnam, palestine, similar, the people dont have force, and their only option is terror. Sadly, the united states has both force and terror, and we seem to use both equally.

reply to post by MikeboydUS
If you check the thread, I don't believe I was referring to you. You've always been courteous and to the point, and I appreciate that. I may not always agree with you, but your information is usually factual and well cited.

I have no real issue with you, and if I inadvertently insulted you, you have my apology. I also don't expect anyone to post their personal information on a forum. That would be foolish, and foolish I don't think you are.



[edit on 4/11/08 by LLoyd45]

Originally posted by LLoyd45
For your information though, I'm not anti-American, I simply don't agree with all the actions our government has taken. Being an American that's my right, just as it's your's to agree with them.

Dude, you've taken things SO wrong though. I NEVER said you were anti-American, I said it seemed you were ashamed of your country, you shouldn't be, if you're going to be ashamed, be ashamed of the human race. And PLEASE point out where I said I agreed with the actions our gov. has taken. I don't, at all. Afghanistan was legitimate, Iraq was not. I just disagree with your assessments of our military vs. cowards who even train children to blow themselves up. You even got me all wrong when we were discussing the world invading the US. I meant we would do well fighting guerilla style, as long as they were trying to avoid civilian casualties, then ANY insurgency can cause trouble for ANY army. But you're right, I'm tired of the hostility and I think we both got carried away. We can agree to disagree.

reply to post by pexx421


I fully agree.

Not a one liner...

reply to post by West Coast
West Coast,

I doubt we're ever going to come to a consensus on anything, so let's just stop bickering like two little girls on this thread. I don't really believe our views are that much different, but neither of us are willing to concede even the slightest point.

It makes neither of us wrong, just on different sides of the issue. If you're willing to drop the personal insults and attacks, so am I.

reply to post by 27jd
That works for me, and I concede I probably did take some of your post out of context. It's easy to do when you get hot under the collar.

Peace

Iran is begging to get bombed. Israel and the US are allready fighting their proxies hezbollah, hamas, seria and their militias fully trained, armed and directed by iran. I hope we blast them soon. This is a long time coming in my opinion.