Jesus & Lucifer one and the same???

reply to post by XcLuciFer

You're a liiiiiiiiiiiittle off-base here because your relying solely on one translation and a very poor interpretation of it. Objectively there is a considerable amount of information about Lucifer in the Bible but you have to read it thoroughly.

For example, in Job Lucifer is among the angels called before God to give a report on their activities. He was busy going to and fro about the Earth and walking up and down in it. (Job 1:7)

Lucifer is also the brightest angel in God's created hierarchy, the son of light, and also the most beautiful. But Lucifer's vanity and lust for power caused his downfall and he was cast out.

Jesus was actually asked of the Pharasees if he was the deceiver come to lead mankind astray. Jesus rebuked them and told them that Satan could not cast out Satan. If the people didn't believe he was the messiah then they should believe in the works he did.

The "son of the morning" and the "morning star", "day star", etc., are all modern translations that have been misinterpreted by their authors. So objectively I think your a liiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiittle off-base on this.

Jesus is NOT Lucifer or the Bible would have said so in more than just one or two passages.

Not possible, Satan tempted Jesus 3x's. The bible specifically describes two beings in this scenerio not one. Also in Revelations Satan is cast in to the lake of fire for all eternity, does that mean Jesus will be cast in the lake of fire? there is more evidence in scripture depicting Christ and Lucifer (Satan) as two specific individual beings than there is any evidence regardless of how its interpreted that Jesus is Lucifer.


Keeper

if you want to really know what is said in the Old Testament, use a translation from the Torah.
Lucifer is just a name given to the angle
Wasnt lucifer cast down becaus of his refusal to torment Job further, after he had proved his rightousness.

Lucifer was "the Satan", but "the Satan" is not necesarrily Lucifer.

Lucifer was "the Satan", a kind of heavenly judge, but after his downfall was no longer the Satan.
Now as I undertstand christian theology, in order to get in to heaven you have to in a sense be judged, by christ.
Would that not make Him the Satan now.

Originally posted by punkinworks
if you want to really know what is said in the Old Testament, use a translation from the Torah.
Lucifer is just a name given to the angle
Wasnt lucifer cast down becaus of his refusal to torment Job further, after he had proved his rightousness.

Lucifer was "the Satan", but "the Satan" is not necesarrily Lucifer.

Lucifer was "the Satan", a kind of heavenly judge, but after his downfall was no longer the Satan.
Now as I undertstand christian theology, in order to get in to heaven you have to in a sense be judged, by christ.
Would that not make Him the Satan now.

Satan is depicted in the book of revelations which hasn't happened yet, how can he "was the satan" since that term is past tense, but revelations refutes that and describes him still around in the future. And your theology is off, the judgment seat of christ is not a judgment in order to get to heaven, if your at the judgment seat of christ you already made it to heaven. The judgment seat is where your works is analyzed to recieve your reward not to pronounce your entrance into the kingdom. Once you believe in Christ you are automatically translated out of the kingdom of darkness and into the kingdom of his dear son, becoming citizens of the Heaven which is the Home of born again believers which is why we are called aliens because we are in this world but not of it.


Keeper

My biggest problem with Christ has been, and always will be:

"Thou shall have no other god before me."

Do I believe Christ is Satan? Not necessarily, but his message does certainly seem to be the "easy" way out of conforming to the "rules" set forth in the Torah. Accept Jesus as your savior and all is forgiven? Sounds dangerously close to violating the FIRST commandment.

Then again, I've never accepted that anything touched by the hand of man could be considered the unequivocal word of God either.

reply to post by robertfenix


I think I can agree with most of that.

Jesus and Lucifer seem to me to be fictitious characters, perhaps both one and the same. Yin and Yang. A Black and White chequered Masonic flooring. The very similar “Hodge and Podge.” Albert Pike's corpse flying a Helicopter!

Perhaps... Perhaps not. I just don't know, really. But I enjoy it this way.

reply to post by Sir Francis Bacon


yes the yin and yang...i think the bible was a storytelling thing where you personally would have the same kinds of battles that the character Jesus faced or Moses did and etc. It could be history, but i believe its a boost, like you drink coffee to wake up, the bible is a spiritual steroid to give you strength.

reply to post by XcLuciFer


To answer your question, no they're not the same.

And for my money, the KJV is the only valid version of "The Word" worth studying and quoting.

"The greatest trick the Devil ever pulled was convincing the world he IS God"

At least thats what I think. As I laid awake, unable to sleep one night, for some reason I was getting to thinking about the whole God vs Devil idea, and thinking about it, God seems to have been the tyrant of the situation, you know worship me and nobody but me or you will spend the rest of eternity burning in hell, and exactly how many times has God destroyed the world compared to the Devil? The way it makes sense to me is that Lucifer(or the Devil for the sake of argument) was simply fed up with living under the dictatorship of God and found the same sentiment among a number of other angels, and said "Nuts to this, I'm gonna fight to be free" What is wrong with that? Would any of us not do the same if, say Bush declared (officially) his dictatorship? I sure would.

As rusty as I am on my bible reading, it seems that God is the bad one, created humans to worship him and not question why(pretty vain) and the Devil(the serpent in the story) tried to provide humans with knowledge and the free will that we were supposedly given by God. I'd rather be kicked out of the garden and in control of my own life with my own mind and control of my own destiny than a slave to some deity who seems to have some self esteem issues and requires constant worship and will send you to burn in a pit of fire if you break any of his rules. And what if Lucifer won the battle in heaven instead of God and decided that the best way for him to keep control was to play God?

Since I don't subscribe to any religion I don't need proof of this at all, that's just how it makes sense to me. I also allows me to see how all the evils throughout the history of organized christianity could be allowed to happen in the name of God.

No, I am not a satanist, but all organized religion is bunk to me so if it makes anyone feel better to call me one, go right ahead. I'd rather be a Satanist than a christian anyways.


Edit - guess I missed the question posed by the OP, so since I don't believe that either exist, I don't see Jesus being Satan, or vice versa but I concede that the only positive aspect of christianity were the teachings of Jesus, son of god or not. Too bad organized christianity don't seem to follow those teaching no more.

[edit on 4/7/2008 by Kronik98]

Originally posted by XcLuciFer

Originally posted by jimmyjackblack
reply to post by XcLuciFer

 

Well let's see, your bring up a topic that would denote the Holiness of Christ, plus you have a Satan, Demon looking thing as your pic, there you have it the reason for my asking. You seem a little offended that I would ask you such a thing, no need to get offened, it's only a question.

Also, I've done a ton of research and you never answered my questions from my first post. I study the bible a LOT (it takes up a lot of my personal time). I would like to know if what you wrote is from a website though, it seems like I've seen it somewhere before.

OMG!!! Have you not read my post I've already stated that it is something I read. The translations and verses of the Bible that are being discussed is in the First post. I don't take offence to your question however, can you plaese stick to the topic and explain why you feel the post is false? Please be Objective, I'm not trying to defile your God.

[edit on 4/7/2008 by XcLuciFer]

It seems to me as well that his is copied and pasted. You don't seem to have any knowledge of the bible seeing as how you haven't yet answered any questions adequately that have been posted to you. And if you are too "smart" to affiliate yourself with religion why would you randomly go through the thousands of pages of the bible to pick out these verses?

Originally posted by XcLuciFer
I'm Curious to know what people think about this......

What does it mean?

Quote:
quomodo cecidisti de caelo lucifer qui mane oriebaris corruisti in terram qui vulnerabas gentes

The English translation simply took the latin 'lucifer' and capitalized it to make 'Lucifer'. The latin 'lucifer' is found in the Bible twice, the other passage is 2 Peter 1:19....

To the Romans Lucifer was the masculine name of the planet Venus, the morning star. It's an astrological remark -- Venus falling, and it refers to an astrological reading which meant the king of Babylon, Nebukadnezzar, would fall. The original Hebrew uses another name than Lucifer here, namely Heylel. The Septuagint uses the name Phosphorus, which like Lucifer is the name of the planet Venus, the Morning Star.

I think they are both, the star comedian of the story called...
** THE CHRISTIANITY **


They are the Carrot and the stick of the Roman Empire, the tools
to manipulate the population of the world and to control their empire.

Lucifer and Jesus are the yin and the yang of the human soul, A
intelectual image to easely control human mind and populations.

'' Greed '' is a human caracteristique and it will always existe...! so their will
always be human who want to control others and have power over the world.

Over the years The Roman Empire seems to have won the first place...
by having corrupted and conquered all powerful kingdoms of the world.
Rome's secret society is about to become the kingdom of the world with the soon
Roman illuminati Vatican, Globalisation Agenda called The New World Order.......!

More it change and more it's the same...!

Originally posted by thebeard
reply to post by jimmyjackblack

 

Just to clarify and keep this on track, I believe your first two questions were answered in the initial post, the location of and english/latin translations were posted as follows.

(As posted by XcLuciFer, edited to make uniform)

Isaiah 14:12

English: How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! How art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

Latin: quomodo cecidisti de caelo lucifer qui mane oriebaris corruisti in terram qui vulnerabas gentes

and then:

2 Peter 1:19

English: And we have the word of the prophets made more certain, and you will do well to pay attention to it, as to a light shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts.

Latin: et habemus firmiorem propheticum sermonem cui bene facitis adtendentes quasi lucernae lucenti in caliginoso loco donec dies inlucescat et lucifer oriatur in cordibus vestris

It seems that the OP is simply calling into question why lucifer is translated in different ways in these two passages, most strikingly in a way that Jesus is referred too later on.

I believe the question that was not answered was this:

(posted by jimmyjackblack)

And why is it that Yeshua so many times casts out demons and satan tempts Him? Did He tempt Himself? You gotta be kidding me.

As for that, I can only guess that it was not adressed since the op is referencing lucifer and not satan, but I'll let the op take that question.

Interesting topic, I've never given it much thought before, but it is thought provoking. it does seem odd that they would translate lucifer to a name referring to jesus later on.

Thanks for your input, you seem to be the only one here interested in addressing the thread topic. I don't think that the issue I have presented here has really been looked into, or at least it is a fairly new concept to me. It would be great if someone knowledgable of the Christian Religion to give their thoughts on what the implications of the transalations means to the faith. And if you think their is in fact a misunderstanding, please clarify.

[edit on 4/8/2008 by XcLuciFer]

Both Isaiah and 2Peter speaks about astrological referances. Lucifer is planet Venus. The same is Phosphoros. It has nothing to do with Satan.

for as conflicting, convoluted and contrieved as the babble, er I mean bible is, it would make it pretty easy to mistake jesus and lucifer as one in the same.

figure it like this, they're the mythical agents of god and the devil, both superstitions in their own right. It comes back down to a yet another round of 'my invisible man can beat up your invisible man'

Originally posted by XcLuciFer

Thanks for your input, you seem to be the only one here interested in addressing the thread topic. I don't think that the issue I have presented here has really been looked into, or at least it is a fairly new concept to me. It would be great if someone knowledgable of the Christian Religion to give their thoughts on what the implications of the transalations means to the faith. And if you think their is in fact a misunderstanding, please clarify.

If you compare Jesus with Roman mythology, Lucifer fits with some aspects of Jesus, being connected to the morning star and the "giving" or "bringing" of the morning star. Jesus is the clear morning star in Christian scripture. Lucifer and Phosphoros is the Morning Star of Roman and Greek scripture.

Interesting thinking. But The Antichrist would be the opposite of Christ. Hence the 'anti'. I don't really see that as being logical or possible.

Venus can also be evening star. Lucifer is planet venus. It's either lucifer rising or lucifer (note not capitalised) falling.

'The morning Star' is a title lead, Jesus is basically taking that title of that glory of being the morning star. Jesus overcame sin so he takes what ever glory Satan claims to have and says, 'I win this time you lose again'. It's just a title name for a role in which God gives to his beings. They are not related as the same person.

Jesus will claim the world title as his while Satan does not and he will be thrown in Hell. Satan is the owner of this world but Jesus will take it back along with his people.



[edit on 9-4-2008 by The time lord]

Jesus says about his son, the new Messiah:

Revelation 2:26 "To him who overcomes and does my will to the end, I will give authority over the nations 27 He will rule them with an iron scepter; he will dash them to pieces like pottery. 28 The same authority I have received from my Father. I will also give him the morning star. "

And just to clear things us, yes, Jesus actually talks of this world ruler as his annointed son:

Revelation 21:7 He who overcomes will inherit all this, and I will be his God and he will be my son.