bearing in mind any true form of socialism is somewhat unlikely, the ideal must be a form of social democracy, compassionate capitalism perhaps. the problem with that is that compassion and capitalism are incompatible.

if progression does occur, it wont be as final as giving up on the american dream, contemporary politics or whatever you want to call it. its simply a matter of learning from mistakes and moving on. that must surely be the definition of progression

anyways, im going to bed. its 1am here and ive got work tomorrow. and no i dont work for a big corporation. i work for oxfam like a good socialist.

Originally posted by bolshevik
bearing in mind any true form of socialism is somewhat unlikely, the ideal must be a form of social democracy, compassionate capitalism perhaps. the problem with that is that compassion and capitalism are incompatible.

if progression does occur, it wont be as final as giving up on the american dream, contemporary politics or whatever you want to call it. its simply a matter of learning from mistakes and moving on. that must surely be the definition of progression

anyways, im going to bed. its 1am here and ive got work tomorrow. and no i dont work for a big corporation. i work for oxfam like a good socialist.

Thanks for contributing dude, take care.

I don't know how to respond to this thread as I see no solution, it's quite depressing. It just brings that George Carlin line to mind:

"We're all fooked, it helps to remember that"

Have you seen the movie Brazil? We're nearly there.

[Edited on 24-2-2004 by John Nada]

Originally posted by John Nada
I don't know how to respond to this thread as I see no solution, it's quite depressing. It just brings that George Carlin line to mind:

"We're all fooked, it helps to remember that"

Well you could debate how we could theoretically stop our lives being taken away from us or you could help debate whos at fault for allowing it to happen. I just love the thread thats all.

Originally posted by Agent47

Originally posted by John Nada
I don't know how to respond to this thread as I see no solution, it's quite depressing. It just brings that George Carlin line to mind:

"We're all fooked, it helps to remember that"

Well you could debate how we could theoretically stop our lives being taken away from us or you could help debate whos at fault for allowing it to happen. I just love the thread thats all.

Hey I'm not knocking the thread at all, I just feel pretty hopeless about it. The way I see it is that the only people who can control this are the government. However, the government actually take their orders off these guys, they serve them. It doesn't matter what party you put in, it's the same thing. Either way, a corporation has probably funded their campaign or whatever.
So the only way I see it is to bring down the government and start again, REVOLUTION!!! But when's that going to happen? It's not very likely no one sticks together anymore, and isn't it funny that the government and the media like to spread fear? No one sticks together, no one trusts each other so there will be no change at the top. It looks like it's too late.

Originally posted by John Nada
It looks like it's too late.

So what are you gonna do as it gets worse?

Originally posted by Agent47

Originally posted by John Nada
It looks like it's too late.

So what are you gonna do as it gets worse?

OK, well I could go out on the streets to thousands of people and go "are we going to take this anymore? Haven't we all had enough? Let's get the bastards, enough is enough. REVOLUTION!!!" lol, if you know what I mean?

Then what would happen? They'd either think me crazy and walk on by or laugh in my face, even though they know it's true deep down but are too scared and filled with fear to admit it. So what else is there to do? The same results will apply to anything you try.

AAAh now your making me feel like theres no point in resisting. This is reminding me of THEY LIVE only there is no satellite I can destroy. Jeez.

Originally posted by DeusEx
Imagine if Texaco jsut upped, left and went to Europe or Russia. There would be hundreds of thousands of jobs lost, and a huge shortage of petro products in the States.

Gotta disagree with this one. If Texaco made the mistake of leaving the U.S., nay, if ANY oil company made the mistake - they would no longer be able to justify the expense of digging the stuff up. Oil companies are big BECAUSE of the U.S.

Originally posted by Agent47
AAAh now your making me feel like theres no point in resisting. This is reminding me of THEY LIVE only there is no satellite I can destroy. Jeez.

Exactly. It's exactly They Live if you just take aliens out of the equation, and unfortunately no there is no satellite dish we can destroy. If only it were that simple. If there were some way to stop this I would be the first in line, I just can't think of one.

Corporations will rule above humans as long as the (law) definition of:

"person" includes; firms, corporations, or other organizations as well as flesh & blood people.

And not only natural persons, (blood & flesh humans), corporations are superior to regular people, because they have legal protections (asset protections, etc. ) that humans do not. As well as the rights (generally) that regular (flesh & blood) humans have.

Look at the different types of businesses, and you'll see what i mean.



[Edited on 2-24-2004 by BeingWatchedByThem]

Originally posted by BeingWatchedByThem
Corporations will rule above humans as long as the (law) definition of:

"person" includes; firms, corporations, or other organizations as well as flesh & blood people.

And not only natural persons, (blood & flesh humans), corporations are superior to regular people, because they have legal protections (asset protections, etc. ) that humans do not. As well as the rights (generally) that regular (flesh & blood) humans have.

Look at the different types of businesses, and you'll see what i mean.



[Edited on 2-24-2004 by BeingWatchedByThem]

Yet corporations argue that they have the same rights as people in a legal sense. They have hidden behind the 14th Amendment in some cases and still today demand due process which only serves as a way to delay punishment and only generate more revenues. I think its totally possible to stop this if we stop seeing corporations as people entity but as soulless threats and start acting accordingly. If we are ready to take away the rights of poor bastards captured as terrorists, then why cant we take away the rights of our greatest threat? And I have to agree that we CAN stop Oil companies because as Americans we are the sole reason that oil is valuable.

Originally posted by DeltaChaos

Originally posted by DeusEx
Imagine if Texaco jsut upped, left and went to Europe or Russia. There would be hundreds of thousands of jobs lost, and a huge shortage of petro products in the States.

Gotta disagree with this one. If Texaco made the mistake of leaving the U.S., nay, if ANY oil company made the mistake - they would no longer be able to justify the expense of digging the stuff up. Oil companies are big BECAUSE of the U.S.

Jeez, I leave for an hour and the thread explodes. Great. Okay, let's get back to this, then essay. Will dorp in every now and again.

Let us begin with the above quote- there are HUGE markets for petroleum products all over the world, especially where there are shortages and it's expensive- places like China, Russia, and some eastern european nations. The US takes in the lion's share of oil, but that doesn't mean they are the most profitable place to sell oil products. There's killings to be made if you know where to look.

Back to the subject at hand- corporate security forces. I'm fairly sure Wackenhut could wage a small war if it wanted, as well as a number of other companies. A large worry is that other companies operating in third world countries are building up large paramilitary forces to protect assets, ei. private security armed with milspec gear. Corps exploiting people in SE asia have to occasionally deal with pirates, or the poor who become violent, or local gangs/syndicates/etc.

Bringing this up, what about organized crime as major corporations, as well as leeches on them. Ever hear of sokaiya?

DE

man, I have so much to say on the discussion I dont know what to say.

We have to separate politics from corporations.Thats the first step IMO.

But thats easier said than done right?

Originally posted by DeusEx
Let us begin with the above quote- there are HUGE markets for petroleum products all over the world, especially where there are shortages and it's expensive- places like China, Russia, and some eastern european nations. The US takes in the lion's share of oil, but that doesn't mean they are the most profitable place to sell oil products. There's killings to be made if you know where to look.

Back to the subject at hand- corporate security forces. I'm fairly sure Wackenhut could wage a small war if it wanted, as well as a number of other companies. A large worry is that other companies operating in third world countries are building up large paramilitary forces to protect assets, ei. private security armed with milspec gear. Corps exploiting people in SE asia have to occasionally deal with pirates, or the poor who become violent, or local gangs/syndicates/etc.

Bringing this up, what about organized crime as major corporations, as well as leeches on them. Ever hear of sokaiya?

DE

Nah Ive never heard of sokaiya, but anyways. Well wouldnt you agree though that the power of Oil companies would severley be hampered at least momentarily if they were forced to stop producing Oil for north america? Europe and Asia arent as car crazy as us and Russia is too poor for everyone to have cars. And another question DE. As corporations build up security forces, will they conflict with real national militaries around the globe? And someone asked me this earlier, hows religion fit into everything as we get pushed closer to a world run by corporations? Does it lose meaning or become a tool of the media outlets? Cause the religion on TV is not controlled by Viacom or Comcast but that doesnt mean it cant be right? And another thing, has anyone played Armored Core for PS or PS2? Everythings ran by corporations and the world is pretty much a wasteland.

Originally posted by McGotti
man, I have so much to say on the discussion I dont know what to say.

We have to separate politics from corporations.Thats the first step IMO.

But thats easier said than done right?

Yeah I sometimes dont know what to tackle first, corporations have become that hard to fit into one nice clean paragraph so I guess we have to dissect them one piece at a time but thanks for coming back McGotti.

Does Walmart help the PRC undermine American superiority?
Well I do agree that 99 percent of things Wal Mart sells are of chinese origin but thats only cause the labor is so cheap there. Its not like the Peoples Republic of China is actually benefitting from it more than Wal-Mart. I do think you could slap wal mart around if you put sanctions on free trade and tried to force it to employ more Americans. I also think you could accuse it of breaking anti trust laws seeing as it totally shuts out private business and smaller competitors like KMart.

And about campaign contributions. Who are they contributing to specifically or does it not make one shread of difference?

Agent, agent, calm down. One problem at a time.

Firstly, look up sokaiya. It's a yakuza practice, and some Japanese corps - I won't say which ones - brought it over.

As for corporate militaries develop, there's bound to be conflicts. it's like Dune- Kaitain is a nice place for everyone to air out dirty laundry and sic the lawyers on each other, but no actual bloodshed takes place. Overseas, it's an entirely different matter. depending on where you are, it can be anything from sabotage to all-out gunfire between rival corporations, local gangs and police forces, and locals in general. However, most corps just settle for using bribery to settle differences with the local law.

DE

Originally posted by DeusEx
Agent, agent, calm down. One problem at a time.
DE

Yeah I didnt mean to pose like 8 questions at a time. But tell me more about these conflicts over seas, I was assuming it happened and wasnt publicized but like how bad does it get between all these people?

Depends. Look into sokaiya - it's an interesting angle. Basically, a member of the yakuza goes to each stockholder meeting. If he isn't bribed by the company, he spreads rumors to lower company stocks.

Yes, back to inter-corporate rivalries. They like to use intermediaries to combat one another (which is probably why lawyers are so popular) as well as industrial espionage.

It's things we don't see overseas that are kept quiet. In some parts of africa, corporate security don't have any qualms about using lethal force to protect their assets, nor to discourage other rivals. Russia has a lot of those kinds of incidents blames on organized crime (Russia and Japan both have very serious issues with organized crime working with big bussiness).

It's not uncommon if you know where to look. Start in Russia, Japan and Brazil. It can be subtle there, but it's clearly evident.

DE