The Atlantean Conspiracy

reply to post by freight tomsen



I have a question for Hanslune, Byrd, and others here who are obviously very knowledgeable on both mainstream and alternative archeological issues, but seemingly jaded by previous disappointments/hoax's they perhaps believed in for a while?

regarding the list of etymological links between the old and new world
(see the post I replied to)

1) is it real? do you agree these are real places/people etc, is there something missing from this description that explains it all

2) if real, do you therefore consider them to be all just coincidence? what other explanation that doesn't include Atlantis existing do you have?

Personally, if real (and I see no reason to doubt the majority of these are real) , I see no other option than that Atlantis in some form or other existed. It may have only been ~bronze age, it may have been different to, say, Plato's description, but it existed somewhere, and either got covered by (most likely slowly) rising water at the end of the ice age (and this got dramaticised into sinking island) or really did sink beneath the ocean.

This is where our differing outlooks come into play. Assuming you agree they are real (the etymological links):

You weigh the facts and think something like: "must just be coincidence since no proof has been found and surely it would have been by now" (apologies if this is not what you think).

I weigh the facts and think "statistically, there is effectively 0 probability that
they could all be coincidences, therefore, Atlantis MUST have existed in some form, and there must have been an ancient link between American cultures and Mediterranean/other cultures. Since most of the physical evidence for ancient civ found so far (there is lots) has, in the eyes of most people(*), been shown to be false/inconclusive, I see evidence of a likely coverup.

thoughts? Is there another explanation?


(*)I am not most people.

I'm not into Ety but I'll show one example

Posted by: Richard Parker (IP Logged)
Date: April 7, 2008 05:44AM

Greenland Eskimos count in exactly the same way as the natives of New Caledonia, by counting fingers to 'one hand'.

Their word for 5 is tûdlemût. It's the same at Point Barrow, Alaska.

A New Caledonia (Bierebo) word for the same number is also 'hand' - chima.

The Maori word is e rima (also hand).

The Australian aborigine (Wik-Mungan, Cape York) word is ima (also hand).

The Papua New Guinea word (Weliki) is meme bisuk, meaning handful.

In my Filipino town the word for 5 is lima, and the word for full (after a meal) is bisuq.

The very obvious similarity of word sounds shows that Greenland was settled by New Zealanders, by way of Australia, New Guinea, the Philippines, and Alaska.

Everything above the last sentence is fact, and the last sentence is only a proven hypothesis, so it's also declared a fact.

The Akkadian word for 5 was hamish, and the modern Arabic is xamsah, Hebrew xamesh, but I feel that suggesting that New Zealanders went all the way to Mesopotamia before proceeding to Greenland might be ridiculed, so I'll shut up now.

regards

Richard

An example of Ety taken to extremes

As to your other question:

Since most of the physical evidence for ancient civ found so far (there is lots) has, in the eyes of most people, been shown to be false/inconclusive, I see evidence of a likely coverup.

By 'ancient civ', I presume you mean Atlantis? What evidence are you talking about?

(quote tags)

[edit on 10-4-2008 by Jbird]

IF there was pre-columbian contact between Egypt and the Maya or Inca . . . .

How come the only evidence is culture and art, and not technology???

Wheat is an incredible innovation . . . surely the Maya and Inca would have borrowed that technology for growing food; particularly the Inca, since wheat does well in semi-arid regions. Likewise, Nile dwellers would have benefited greatly from Maize, which is a major crop in modern Egypt.

If they had the contact, why didn't they borrow technology, with its wonderful economic incentives, instead of art and mythology?


Why didn't the Maya and Inca copy Egyptian metallurgy? The geography of the old Inca empire is the world's producer of copper now. Surely the Egyptians would have capitalized on those resources, if they ever knew about them.

Why didn't the cultures of the new world copy the wheel? Why copy art, when the technology of the wheel helps so vastly with food production?? And it is simple to copy, once you've seen a wheel in action.

For those of you with eyes to see, please do notice Hanslune's behavior. Now he has just whipped up this lovely explanation of why Etymology is an unreliable science. I give you Charles Berlitz, speaker of 32 languages, whose research leads him to belief in Atlantis and one human mother-tongue. Hanslune gives you wacky Eskimo numbers and random Etymology denouncing it as unreliable. I spend all my time researching the global elite control mechanisms, writing, and distributing my findings. Hanslune spends his time countering my and other people's anti-establishment claims. Look at his post history and see what he does to threads. Look at my post history to see where I've exposed other agents. In that huge Scientology/Anonymous thread I fingered out one agent and he proved to be signing on with 3 screen names talking/agreeing with himself! The mods kicked him off.

www.abovetopsecret.com...'


Mod Note: Please Stay on Topic– Review This Link.


[edit on 10-4-2008 by Jbird]

Originally posted by diablomonic

1) is it real? do you agree these are real places/people etc, is there something missing from this description that explains it all

2) if real, do you therefore consider them to be all just coincidence? what other explanation that doesn't include Atlantis existing do you have?

As you'll note in the book, I give my position, which is that Atlantis was both real AND mythological. I've already posted info regarding the reality of an ancient advanced world civilization. Here's some info regarding the reality of an ancient advanced world-wide mythology:

Homer, Plutarch, and many other ancient writers mention islands situated in the Atlantic "several thousand stadia from the Pillars of Hercules." Pillars, obelisks, and towers have all been shown to have Masonic significance. Hercules performing his twelve labors has been shown to reference the Sun, the mushroom, and consciousness in general. So are the pillars of Hercules real or metaphorical? Is Atlantis real or metaphorical? Could it be both?

“The Atlantis story was preserved at the Canary Islands perhaps in far greater detail than even Plato’s account before the imposition of Christianity, which affected Guanche culture like a blight. Perhaps the most revealing of all surviving material connecting the Canary Islanders to Atlantis is found in the Tois Aethiopikes by Marcellus. In 45 A.D., he recorded that ‘the inhabitants of the Atlantic island of Poseidon preserve a tradition handed down to them by their ancestors of the existence of an Atlantic island of immense size of not less than a thousand stadia [about 115 miles], which had really existed in those seas, and which, during a long period of time, governed all the islands of the Atlantic Ocean.’ Pliny the Elder seconded Marcellus, writing that the Guanches were in fact the direct descendants of the disaster that sank Atlantis. Proclus reported that they still told the story of Atlantis in his day, circa 410 A.D.” -Frank Joseph, “The Atlantis Encyclopedia” (130)

“Marcellus, in a work on the Ethiopians, speaks of seven islands lying in the Atlantic Ocean - probably the Canaries - and the inhabitants of these islands, he says, preserve the memory of a much greater island, Atlantis, ‘which had for a long time exercised dominion over the smaller ones.’" -Didot Müller, "Fragmenta Historicorum Græcorum," vol. IV (443)

Many aspects of the Atlantean myth must be literal, but others must be allegorical. The idea of 1 island ruling over 7 sounds more metaphorical. There are several islands in the Canaries and to say there are 7 major islands, 8, 9, 20 or just 1 is arbitrary. Perhaps Atlantis, this one excellent place, had dominion over the seven chakras, energetic islands in the oceans of our bodies.

“The Maya have much in common with the Indians as well. As to the similarities between the Mayan and Hindu religion and language, Hinduism Today says, ‘Chacla in Mayan refers to force centers of the body similar to the chakras of Hinduism. K’ultanlilni in Mayan refers to the power of God within man which is controlled by the breath, similar in meaning to kundalini. Mayan chilambalam refers to a sacred space, as does Tamil Chidambaram. Yok’hah in Maya means ‘on top of truth,’ similar to yoga in Sanskrit.’ The Maya also had the same goddess Maya, mother of the gods and man, as in India. Furthermore, the legendary founder of the Maya was the god Votan or Wotan, a name identical to the god of Teutonic tribes. There are many such correspondences between the Old and New Worlds.” -Acharya S., “The Christ Conspiracy” (276)

So the Mayan and Indian words - chakra, kundalini, and yoga - share identical sounds and meaning. The word “Maya” means “Illusion” in both languages as well and refers to our material existence, which both cultures believe to be illusory. They believe, as all ancient cultures believed, that we are immaterial souls having a physical experience.

In Sanskrit, “Atl” means “to support or uphold” as Atlas was said to hold the world on his shoulders. Alonso de Molina’s 16th century dictionary of the Nahuatl language, “Vocabulario En Lengua Mexicana y Castellana” says that "The words Atlas and Atlantic have no satisfactory etymology in any language known to Europe. They are not Greek, and cannot be referred to any known language of the Old World. But in the Nahuatl language we find immediately the radical 'a', 'atl', which signifies water, war, and the top of the head.” Why the top of the head? The word “atl” is found in the names of most of their gods, and one of its meanings is “top of the head.”

“The tree sacred to Atlas; its branches, like his arms, supported the heavens. The oak’s association with Atlas implies a primeval tree cult or pillar cult, a memory
of it surviving in Kritias, Plato’s Atlantis account, when he described a ceremonial
column at the very midpoint of the Temple of Poseidon, itself located at the center
of Atlantis. The Atlanteans’ oldest, most hallowed laws were inscribed on its
exterior and sacrificial bull’s blood was shed over it by all 10 kings of Atlantis in
that civilization’s premiere ritual.” -Frank Joseph, “The Atlantis Encyclopedia” (208)

The pineal gland (6th chakra, the third-eye) lies at the geometrical center point of the brain. Plato’s account of Atlantis described a “ceremonial column at the very midpoint of the Temple of Poseidon, itself located at the center of Atlantis.” The ceremonial column (Oak Tree, Tree of Life, Staff of Moses etc.) is the human spine with 33 vertebrae. The actual medical term for the 33rd vertebrae which holds up the skull is “Atlas,” same as the King of Atlantis. In Atlantean mythology, Atlas holds up the world or the heavens and in your body the Atlas vertebrae holds up your head/mind. In Atlantean mythology, Atlas has 7 daughters who spend all their time guarding and dancing around the Tree of Life; In your body you have 7 energy centers (chakras) dancing around your spine.

Plato described Atlantis as being shaped like three concentric circles of land separated by concentric circles of water. In other words the shape of a bull’s-eye. Why would the center of a target be called a “bull’s-eye” anyway? The Atlas vertebra holds up your brain, your “third-eye” is at the center of your brain, and the center of Atlantis is a “bull’s-eye.” In fact, your skull, which Atlas holds up, is shaped just like Atlantis is described. At the center point is your third-eye. The third-eye is separated and surrounded completely by water/fluid. Next is the cerebral cortex, the meat of the brain. Then around that is a layer of constantly flowing/pumping blood. And lastly around that is the skull. Plato said sacrificial bull’s blood was shed over the exterior of the Temple of Poseidon, which is also consistent with the blood that flows over the exterior of the brain.

“Bulls were associated with divine regents in Sumer, Egypt, Assyria, Minoan
Crete, Greece, Rome, Iberia, and Ireland. All of these cultures featured traditions
of a great deluge from which their ancestors came with all the accoutrements of a
high civilization, including, most importantly, matters of kingship. In each people,
their king was ritually identified with a sacred bull, because it was important for a
leader to identify with the tremendous strength and aggressiveness epitomized by
such an animal. In pre-Celtic Ireland, the new monarch had to undergo a ceremonial
bath of bull’s broth, which he then drank from an Atlantean-like golden cup.
The Egyptian Hape, better remembered by his Greek name, Apis, was the sacred
bull of Memphis. Like the bulls at the Temple of Poseidon, he was allowed to roam
free in a courtyard of the temple.” -Frank Joseph, “The Atlantis Encyclopedia” (78)

If the Temple of Poseidon (between your “temples”) is your brain then Atlantis’ bull’s-eye is your third-eye/pineal gland which literally “roams free in the courtyard of the temple” because it is surrounded by water/fluid. Bull’s-eyes also just happen to be red, white and black, the same color as Santa, the Amanita Muscaria, and the flag of Egypt.

“In this West African version of the flood, Obatala is the Yoruba version of the
Greco-Atlantean Atlas: Oba denotes kingship, while atala means ‘white.’ Yoruba
priests wear only white robes while worshipping him, and images of the god are
offered only white food. Among these sacrifices are white kola and goats, recalling
the Atlantean goat cults known to the ancient Canary Islanders, off the coast
of northwest Africa, and the Iberian Basque. Obatala’s chief title is ‘King of
Whiteness,’ because he is revered as the white-skinned ‘Ancient Ruler’ and
‘Father’ of the Yoruba race by a native woman, Oduduwa. Like Atlas, Obatala
was a giant in the middle of the sea, and the ‘seven chains’ which signal the end of
the Deluge may coincide with the seven Pleiades, associated throughout much of
world myth with the Flood’s conclusion. Directly across the Atlantic Ocean, in the
west, the Aztec version of Atlantis – Aztlan - was referred to as the ‘White Island.’
In the opposite direction, in the east, Hindu traditions in India described ancestral
origins from Attala, likewise known as the ‘White Island.’” -Frank Joseph, “The Atlantis Encyclopedia” (209)

Is this where we get our legends of an Ivory Tower on an island? Was it a real tower on a real island or our ivory spines on the islands of our bodies? Or was it both?

“‘The White Island’ described in the great Indian epic Mahabharata and in
the epic poems, the Puranas, as the mountainous homeland of a powerful and
highly civilized race located in ‘the Western Sea’ on the other side of the world
from India … Atala itself sank in a violent storm.” -Frank Joseph, “The Atlantis Encyclopedia” (33)

“The nations on the west of the Atlantic look to the 'east' for their place of origin; while on the east of the Atlantic they look to the 'west': thus all the lines of tradition converge upon Atlantis. But here is the same testimony that in the Garden of Eden there were four rivers radiating from one parent stream. And these four rivers, as we have seen, we find in the Scandinavian traditions, and in the legends of the Chinese, the Tartars, the Singhalese, the Thibetians, the Buddhists, the Hebrews, and the Brahmans. And not only do we find this tradition of the Garden of Eden in the Old World, but it meets us also among the civilized races of America. The elder Montezuma said to Cortez, "Our fathers dwelt in that happy and prosperous place which they called Aztlan, which means 'whiteness.’” –Ignatius Donnelly, “Atlantis: The Antediluvian World”

The Bible stories featuring a garden, tree, serpent, and golden apples are known the world over and they originate from the Atlantean legend.

“The history of the old testament is the history of Atlantis.” -Comyns Beaumont

“The American Tree of Life - The Toltec legends speak of a garden, a tree, a serpent and a woman that was the mother of all mankind. They also speak of a race of giants that were in the world from the earliest times.” -Ignatius Donnelly, “Atlantis and the Antediluvian World”

“(The) Tree of Life (is) a mythic allusion to the human spinal column as the bearer of seven major energy centers known as chakras, or spiritual ‘wheels’ in Indian kundalini yoga. The concept originated in Atlantis, with its seven Hesperides, daughters of Atlas, and the golden apples of eternal life they guarded.” -Frank Joseph, “The Atlantis Encyclopedia” (272)

"Mythology often appears to be describing body sensations when it speaks of serpents, as well as describing the human spine, which can be symbolized as the tree or twin trees or the serpent or twin serpents. The serpent image connected with the spine has its best-known representation in the Indian Kundalini mythology. Chetwynd (1982) describes body symbolism that is related to the serpent as ‘connected with the spinal column, which joins the physical nature (the genitals) to the spiritual nature (the head).’” -Gerry Anne Lenhart, “The Genesis Model”

Originally posted by freight tomsen
. . . I give you Charles Berlitz, speaker of 32 languages, whose research leads him to belief in Atlantis and one human mother-tongue. . . .

Ew.

No thanks, I don't have a shovel with me.

you DO know that Charles Berlitz has been dead for nearly five years, right?

Not that I'm in total disagreement about a ur-source for spoken language; I just don't need a sunken continent to believe in a single source for language. On the other hand, if there were a linguistic link, he'd be the one to spot it, probably.

.

In other words the “fall” and the “flood” whether or not they happened physically, likely happened within an individual or on a spiritual level. And Atlantis, whether or not was a real island continent heading an advanced global civilization, likely also referenced the soul, the pineal gland, and chakra system within the individual. The most sacred secrets of the Masons and world Royalty pertain to the chakra/energetic system, the amanita muscaria, '___', and Kundalini yoga’s activation of the crown chakra.

“A new center – presently dormant in the average man or woman – has to be activated and a more powerful stream of psychic energy must rise into the head from the base of the spine to enable the human consciousness to transcend the normal limits. This is the final phase of the present evolutionary impulse in man. The cerebrospinal system of man has to undergo a radical change, enabling consciousness to transcend the limits of the highest intellect. Here reason yields to intuition and revelation appears to guide the steps of humankind. This mechanism, known as Kundalini, is the real cause of all so-called spiritual and psychic phenomena, the biological basis of evolution and development of personality, the secret origin of all esoteric and occult doctrines, the master key to the unsolved mystery of creation, the inexhaustible source of philosophy, art, and science, and the fountainhead of all religious faiths, past, present and future.” -Dr. Lee Sanella, “The Kundalini Experience”

“So what is meant by the term Kundalini experience? Kundalini is a Sanskrit word that can be translated as ‘coiled up.’ Kundalini is represented in many Tantrik illustrations as a sleeping serpent, coiled 3 ½ times, at the base of the spinal cord. The popular view of Kundalini is that it is a dormant power that lies waiting to be unleashed, by means of various practices. The ‘serpent power,’ once awakened, is coaxed up the central channel of the spine, entering the chakras (psychic energy centres) until it reaches the Crown chakra - and the yogi achieves ‘illumination.’” -Phil Hine, “Kundalini, A Personal Approach”

“The caduceus symbol of coiling snakes is thought to be an ancient symbolic representation of Kundalini physiology. The concept of Kundalini comes from yogic philosophy of ancient India and refers to the mothering intelligence behind yogic awakening and spiritual maturation. It might be regarded by yogis as a sort of deity, hence the occasional capitalization of the term. Within a western frame of understanding it is often associated with the practice of contemplative or religious practices that might induce an altered state of consciousness, either brought about spontaneously, through a type of yoga, through psychedelic drugs, or through a near-death experience …According to the yogic tradition Kundalini is curled up in the back part of the root chakra in three and one-half turns around the sacrum. Yogic phenomenology states that kundalini awakening is associated with the appearance of bio-energetic phenomena that are said to be experienced somatically by the yogi. This appearance is also referred to as ‘pranic awakening’. Prana is interpreted as the vital, life-sustaining force in the body. Uplifted or intensified life-energy is called pranotthana and is supposed to originate from an apparent reservoir of subtle bio-energy at the base of the spine. This energy is also interpreted as a vibrational phenomena that initiates a period, or a process of vibrational spiritual development … Kundalini is mainly associated with Hinduism. However, Kundalini as a spiritual experience is thought to have parallels in many of the mystical and Gnostic traditions of the world's great religions. Many factors point to the universality of the phenomenon. The early Christians might have referred to the concept as 'pneuma', and there are some recent parallels in contemporary Christian Charismatic 'Holy Ghost' phenomena. Religious studies also note parallels in Quakerism, Shakerism, Judaic Shuckling (torso-rocking prayer), the swaying zikr and whirling dervish of Islam, the quiverings of the Eastern Orthodox hesychast, the flowing movements of tai chi, the ecstatic shamanic dance, the ntum trance dance of the Bushman, Tibetan Buddhist tummo heat as practiced by Milarepa, and the Indically-derived Andalusian flamenco (Sovatsky, 1998). Kundalini practice is centerfold in Japan's Aum Shinrikyo group and Kundalini-yoga is also one of the stages the practitioner is able to achieve.” -Crystalinks, “Kundalini” (www.crystalinks.com...)

“The ancient yogis and sages who developed Kundalini Yoga had a deep respect for the Creator of this human body. They knew, in their profound devotion and worship, that so perfect a Creator could only have created perfection in design, function and potential. Based on this respect, they sought knowledge of the totality of the human being. They researched the human ability to maintain good health, increase vitality, open consciousness and expand the experience of the excellence of human life. Their research gave them a great understanding of the nervous system, glandular system, organ system, energy system, and brain. They learned how blood, nerves, muscles, organds, and glands all work together. They investigated the seen and the unseen, and the inter-relationships between the physical and the subtle. From this research they developed Kundalini Yoga. Kundalini Yoga is a highly evolved technology based on a through understanding of the ecology of the human body, how the breath affects the thinking, how the angle of a finger affects the pituitary gland. This technology works with the systems of the human body using the body’s own means. Hand position, breath, posture, sound, and motion are employed in various ways to create the optimum balance among all the body’s components … until recent times these techniques had been secret, taught only to a chosen few.” -Harijot Kaur Khalsa, “Kundalini Yoga, Physical Wisdom”

Originally posted by freight tomsen
For those of you with eyes to see, please do notice Hanslune's behavior. Now he has just whipped up this lovely explanation of why Etymology is an unreliable science.

I've been taking note of Hanslune since he began posting here. I've done this because his posts are noteworthy.

I (and others) do not need you to direct our attention to one of the most notable (and intelligent) posters in this section of ATS.

As for you, I've read Hancock's (now) utterly debunked "Fingerprints..." train wreck of a fraud that you (like an idiot) use as a "reference." Even Hancock has disavowed most of what is in that piece of garbage that the unfortunately ignorant are still wasting their money on.

I am in no way interested in reading anyone's "take" on that waste of good paper. Least of all your take on it. Anyone that cries "he's a MASON!!!" because they cannot support their own foolish statements with fact is certainly not worthy of being considered anything but an airheaded fool.

Originally posted by freight tomsenI give you Charles Berlitz, speaker of 32 languages, whose research leads him to belief in Atlantis and one human mother-tongue.

Oh, so it was you that gave us Berlitz?

And here I thought he crawled out from under a rock.

Will you please, then, take him back? He's making me nauseous.

Harte

OK Folks . Lets keep the personal attacks out of the discussion, Please.


And freight tomsen, Take it easy on the Huge quotes, please.

Howdy all

Jbird words of wisdom should be taken to heart.

Tsk, tsk FT responding to legitimate questions about your work with personal attacks and dodging the questions. Not a very scholarly approach wouldn't you say? We don't need to speculate on why you won't answer questions about your book - that reason is obvious and we excuse you for not acting as a scholar, as you are obviously not one.

So what else can we question you on - that you'll be willing to answer?

Originally posted by Hanslune
I'm not into Ety but I'll show one example

Posted by: Richard Parker (IP Logged)
Date: April 7, 2008 05:44AM

Greenland Eskimos count in exactly the same way as the natives of New Caledonia, by counting fingers to 'one hand'.

Their word for 5 is tûdlemût. It's the same at Point Barrow, Alaska.

A New Caledonia (Bierebo) word for the same number is also 'hand' - chima.

The Maori word is e rima (also hand).

The Australian aborigine (Wik-Mungan, Cape York) word is ima (also hand).

The Papua New Guinea word (Weliki) is meme bisuk, meaning handful.

In my Filipino town the word for 5 is lima, and the word for full (after a meal) is bisuq.

The very obvious similarity of word sounds shows that Greenland was settled by New Zealanders, by way of Australia, New Guinea, the Philippines, and Alaska.

Everything above the last sentence is fact, and the last sentence is only a proven hypothesis, so it's also declared a fact.

The Akkadian word for 5 was hamish, and the modern Arabic is xamsah, Hebrew xamesh, but I feel that suggesting that New Zealanders went all the way to Mesopotamia before proceeding to Greenland might be ridiculed, so I'll shut up now.

regards

Richard

An example of Ety taken to extremes

lets see: australian, new zealand and papua new guinea peoples linked? not surprising, I thought this was fairly accepted? Phillipines is nearby, so not much surprise there either. The only interesting example there is alaska and greenland having the same word for 5 as each other, yet it is a different word than all the rest, so how does this imply they got to Australasia? just cos they count on one hand? kind of obvious...) I fail to see how this example does anything to disprove the case that cultures sharing the same/similar word for the same/similar concept is evidence of a connection between them, since all those listed who had the same/similar word for 5 ARE connected as far as I know (and yes, thats not much, so correct me if I'm wrong). Also if you then added to this example each of those cultures having a similar story as to WHY they had that word, talking about a lost homeland in corresponding locations, then you get a little closer to the example given.

(also just because you think thats a way out example of cultures not supposed to be linked being apparently linked by etymology, does not mean I agree, since we are in a forum topic discussing a once great world spanning culture that by some accounts went to/near all these places...??!!??!!

As to your other question:

Since most of the physical evidence for ancient civ found so far (there is lots) has, in the eyes of most people, been shown to be false/inconclusive, I see evidence of a likely coverup.

By 'ancient civ', I presume you mean Atlantis? What evidence are you talking about?

(quote tags)

[edit on 10-4-2008 by Jbird]

Atlantis would be one option. Lets just say some unnamed culture that reached both the new and old world, and possibly Australian region too.
There is plenty of evidence, most of it just has doubt associated with it (especially in minds like yours, no offense whatsoever meant). Whether that doubt is legitimate doubt brought upon by strong evidence of fraud/mistakes or simply because of the amazing implications accepting it would bring, varies a lot case to case, however since I'm one of those crazy people that think there is a cover up, it takes more than easily planted evidence of fraud to convince me something IS a fraud (that doesn't mean I automatically assume its all real either, just that it's kept in the "unknown basket" until multiple pieces of "doubted" evidence confirm each other and make the case a stronger)

basically the evidence is all these things brought up in all these topics that you/others keep (sometimes, legitimately, sometimes not) "poo pooing

Originally posted by Hanslune
Howdy all

Jbird words of wisdom should be taken to heart.

Tsk, tsk FT responding to legitimate questions about your work with personal attacks and dodging the questions. Not a very scholarly approach wouldn't you say? We don't need to speculate on why you won't answer questions about your book - that reason is obvious and we excuse you for not acting as a scholar, as you are obviously not one.
So what else can we question you on - that you'll be willing to answer?

for someone complaining about personal attacks, thats a fairly personal attack, don't you think?

I know you think you know enough about all this to be able to dismiss the whole thing, but your (apparently quite vast) knowledge is what he might call "mainstream(*)" and his is "alternative". You think being "mainstream" makes it stronger, I'm not so sure, and apparently neither is tomsen. It all comes down to your perspective.

Put it this way. someone not believing in an inside job and coverup for, say, 9/11 is more likely to believe info on it coming from official sources. Me, who thinks it was an inside job, and there is a coverup, is more likely to believe information that appears to be being suppressed (eg initial reports of things that are no longer mentioned in the MSM), and be a bit more skeptical of info that manages to break into the "mainstream" (eg Fahrenheit 911)

In this case, someone thinking Atlantis is most likely bunk and not accepting a conspiracy/coverup will obviously and, from their perspective, logically expect there to be some hard physical evidence for it, and see the lack of it as a clear indication of it being not true.

Someone who thinks there is a coverup will, while still hoping for such hard evidence, realise that it may never come. However by looking at vast amounts of harder to cover up, less conclusive on their own evidences, we can still find convincing (to us) evidence of atlantis. (the above AT Atl etc etymology example being one I think is pretty damn strong evidence, and is something I would expect to be nearly impossible to cover up (beyond just claiming mere coincidence), hence why we can still find it)

Something I've learnt well in other fields of study, along with this hobby, is that famous line:
"The more you know, the more you know you dont know!"

(*)another perspective is, you might call it "proven" and "unproven", we might call it "allowed to be proven/planted to be proven" and "covered up/not allowed to be proven". You might say: "thats silly, either you can prove something or you cant", I say I've seen plenty of things I consider proven or plainly obvious (to me) that are not accepted as such, and plenty of things taken as fact that I do not accept as such. Sometimes you have to be a bit humble and realize, truly, we can never be sure of anything, only build trees of inference and "proof" like giant houses of cards.

Just because the mainstream house of cards is bigger and more complex does not mean it is not built upon wobbly foundations, nor does gluing the cards to the table using "consensus" views and media/educational manipulation fix the problem, if it is.

Originally posted by dr_strangecraft

Originally posted by freight tomsen
. . . I give you Charles Berlitz, speaker of 32 languages, whose research leads him to belief in Atlantis and one human mother-tongue. . . .

Ew.

No thanks, I don't have a shovel with me.

you DO know that Charles Berlitz has been dead for nearly five years, right?
.

I dont know who charles berlitz is, so perhaps your criticism is justified, but it sounds like you are saying hes wrong (well full of sheeat might be more exact) because hes dead? wtf? perhaps you should state other criticisms of the bloke other than him being a mere mortal?

on the topic of "conpsiracy" and coverup (this thread), I had a thought I'd like to share

Many have asked "how many would need to be in on it" and similar questions, and I have stated my opinion that the answer is not many, since many will innocently cover things up without realizing it.

As an example of this, I give: Your selves, in this forum!:
I honestly value the input from people like byrd and hans, because picking their brains is a darnsight easier than trying to learn all this stuff myself from scratch, but I have seen a few examples where they flat out reject something I consider valid, because of their pre-existing knowledge that contradicts it being a possibility. Now I do not claim this is deliberate, and yet, to a casual reader with mainstream tendencies, it is enough to effectively taint whatever "evidence" is being discussed, and once the doint is there, they will gravitate towards the "less doubtful" mainstream explanations. This is fine if there is no coverup/conspiracy, but if there IS... then they are, unknowingly, helping to maintain it.

No criticism intended, simply trying to explain how I think some of this stuff works.

Originally posted by diablomonic

I dont know who charles berlitz is, so perhaps your criticism is justified, but it sounds like you are saying hes wrong (well full of sheeat might be more exact) because hes dead? wtf? perhaps you should state other criticisms of the bloke other than him being a mere mortal?

Charles Berlitz was a prolific writer of 'pulp' 'mystery' books in the 60s and 70s - stuff like Atlantis, UFOs and the Bermuda Triangle. His books were infamous for never giving references, missing out pertinent details, and even making 'fact's up. At times he would quote from an author of a similar book to prove veracity - a book whose author had previous quoted from another such author who in turn had quoted from Berlitz ...... He certainly made a lot of his stuff up and was never one to let the truth get in the way of a good story. He also wrote a book predicting the end of the world would occur in 1999

You may find this interesting: www.fumento.com...

reply to post by Essan


ok thanks.
(reading link now)

also read the linked erin brokovitch thing, interesting.

[edit on 11-4-2008 by diablomonic]

Thanks for your insight and keen intuition Diablo. They will deny it all day long and say I'm crazy, but the fact is Hanslune and Essan (and many others here on ATS) are cointel-pro disinformation agents and this is what they do. They sit in a windowless room for hours everyday, making multiple screen names, sending misinfo and agreeing with themselves. Why does Hanslune keep coming back and giving long-winded rebutals to every word I type? Does he seem like a "truth-seeker" or "establishment defender?"




FT, Did you not see my note??

Last (free) warning . To Everyone.

Discuss the Topic NOT the Members.


[edit on 11-4-2008 by Jbird]

Originally posted by Essan

Charles Berlitz was a prolific writer of 'pulp' 'mystery' books in the 60s and 70s - stuff like Atlantis, UFOs and the Bermuda Triangle. His books were infamous for never giving references, missing out pertinent details, and even making 'fact's up. At times he would quote from an author of a similar book to prove veracity - a book whose author had previous quoted from another such author who in turn had quoted from Berlitz ...... He certainly made a lot of his stuff up and was never one to let the truth get in the way of a good story. He also wrote a book predicting the end of the world would occur in 1999

Thank you Essan for that Fair and Balanced summary of Charles Berlitz' life and work! Your journalism skills would be much appreciated at FOX News.

Originally posted by freight tomsen
... the fact is Hanslune and Essan (and many others here on ATS) are cointel-pro disinformation agents and this is what they do. They sit in a windowless room for hours everyday, making multiple screen names, sending misinfo and agreeing with themselves.

Well you got one thing right - I do sit in a windowless room for hours every day!