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I believe I may have found the tree of knowledge!

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posted on Apr, 8 2008 @ 03:54 AM
I haven't been following this thread since my initial offering. I think that the rabbi (Pichas Winston) was merely showing how history has a cyclical pattern to it, and that corresponding to the point wherein which the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge: Good and Evil was eaten corresponds to this particular era we are in, and the current applicable metaphor for him was the internet, but I think he was making another point that happened to correlate. I think he was using this language to make a side notion, which is interesting, but I think it would be silly to misinterpret what he is saying. Now, I believe it was King Solomon who is credited with saying "There is nothing new under the sun." I think that clearly history runs in what appears to us to be largely circular patterns. One of the original notions here, according to the Hebrew commentators, is that based on the lunar calendar according to their tradition (and I believe that puts us in the year 5768, if I remember correctly) that every 1000 years corresponds to one "day" (read more properly in the Hebrew "age" of creation), and that the final redemption would occur by the year 6000 according to this particular calendar model (so we're 200 hundred years and some change before the absolute drop-dead point, in a manner of speaking according to this system, and clearly it can happen any point before that according to the sages). Now we're getting into Hebrew Eschatology which I think is a little beyond the scope of this thread, but Rabbi Winston's point was that based on this model we are in the "11th hour of creation" if I am quoting him correctly (it's been a while since I saw that particular video), and there are correlations due to the cyclical nature of history. So his comment about the internet being akin to the Tree of Knowledge (:Good and Evil) is to be understood within this context and not that we are just now eating from the Tree of Knowledge and about to be kicked out of the Garden of Eden. That wouldn't make any sense, as clearly the Torah and historical writings of even say Josephus paint a different picture. Religion is steeped in and based largely on metaphor, how can we apply teachings of old to our current lives and experiences, etc. The same problems and tests have plagued our human experience (and in a lot of ways enhanced it, as some would argue, and I think there is a case to be made for that as well). The notion that spiritual teachings are timeless and relevant in all generations is the back-bone of just about any theological way of thinking, otherwise a spiritual/religious discipline cannot exist beyond the generation of it's founders, because it has become obsolete in a manner of speaking. Anyhow, the really interesting thing in that video was not his side bar on the internet but that the fruit of the Tree of Life was the bark itself. The Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil bore very attractive fruit, and in comparison the Tree of Life seemed to bare no fruit. His opinion (which is mirrored by many of the Hebrew sages/scholars) is kind of a radical one in some respects, God intended us to first eat from the Tree of Life, not the Tree of Knowledge, as a result curses have ensued until this very day and there is need of a very large Tikkun (which means "Rectification" or "Correction" in Hebrew). The natural order was disrupted. Anyhow, that was something I thought would be of interest to sincere students of theology. Once again as a student of comparative religion I am not endorsing any particular tradition, but I do feel I must state that when it comes to the "Old Testament" as a lot of you like to call it, the language and customs of the Hebrews are the authority, and I regard it as such. Hopefully that helps to clarify my statements, this thread is getting a little tedious, and therefore I must admit, I've lost interest. I just try to show up where my training is perhaps a worthwhile contribution.


posted on Apr, 8 2008 @ 05:01 AM
Indeed. According to the first chapters of Genesis, God created the world with everything in it in seven days. On the seventh day God rested and didn't do any work. The idea is that this particular story is both cosmological and prophetic. The Torah can seam to be following the pattern of creation only a day equals 1000 years which is showed to us in Psalms 90. On the first day Adam and Eve is created. Heaven and Earth, Day and Night. The Light would be the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge. According to myth Adam received a book refered to as the Spark of Heaven in Eden. Satan rebelled because Adam had been trusted with the highest secrets, so he and 1/3rd of the angels fell down to earth. This event would be symbolised with the serpent being cast to the ground and Eve being cursed. In Genesis 6 we see how these angels came down to earh and brought with them wisdom and they found wives among the humans. However the children of the fallen angels became giants and evil was launched on the world. Hence the knowledge of good and evil.

And the rest of the bible seams to follow this pattern with a new advent every thousand years. If you take six days and say a day is 1000 years, you end up with a period of 6000 years. 2008 is according to the Hebrew calendar year 5768. In the Book of Revelation, the last book of the Christian bible, it is prophecied that Jesus shall sit down as Lord God on the throne of heaven establishing a Messianic kingdom in heaven and on earth. The dead shall be judged together with ones who are destroying the earth, and the prophets and the saints will rise from the dead and shall rule with God and his Messiah for 1000 years. After these 1000 years comes the final judgement and God recreates heaven and earth. The 7000 year, seven day cycle starts over.

posted on Apr, 8 2008 @ 08:17 AM
If you watch 2001, Space Oddessy, it advances the idea that the eating of raw bloody meat was the evolutionary leap from ape to man. Kubric was an illuminati insider, and this theory is exactly what they want you to believe, because the eating of the blood of a slaughtered animal will help to keep you vibrating at a slow fear based level. The Bible forbids the eating of blood for good reason. Eating the blood of a slaughtered animal is like eating a drug, the drugs that were excreted into the blood stream from the brains of the terrified slaughtered animal. That is the reason for humane slaughtering practices. It wasn't for good karma alone. It was so that you would not be eating the drugs of panic and fear that are in the blood of a terrified animal. The illuminati have a religion based on eating the raw flesh of terrified victims of human sacrifice. This is the religion of the serpent. This is the religion of the sun god.
The story of Adam and Eve is extremely suspect as a myth. The god who is speaking is Elohim, a plural form, and refers to themselves as "we".
Just what god is this, or group of gods, who would not want the enlightenment of man? The myth itself could be created by the same ancient mystery religion of the illuminati to point you in the wrong direction. Much in the Bible comes from the Living God, but much of it is a deep conspiracy, and sometimes it is just plain human. (I'll take Isaiah word for word, if I could only truly understand it, but Genesis is a collection of ancient myths, and the selection and slant of the myths implies a political intention.) Even (and especially) with the Bible, you must test the spirit. If it is of amazing unconditional love, it is of God.
If you read Terrence McKenna's "Food of the Gods", you will discover a more likely explanation for the sudden growth of the human brain, for the sudden appearance of lucid drawings on caves, of religion and the burying of the dead. It is the fruit of the tree, a symbionic relationship with a fungus whose roots live off the roots of the tree, the magic mushroom. It seems to have a virgin birth since it has no visable seeds, and seems to spring from the tree itself. If you do magic mushrooms yourself, you will see your nakedness and understand completely what happened to Adam and Eve. They saw that the material realm is an illusion, a hologram.
Lilith is the female side of Lucifer. All angels are both male and female. It is highly possible that angels are a discription of beings in another dimension, and demons can be also read as reptillians. The reptillian race is hermaphroditic. (look up Stewart Swerdlow). The name Lilith, when it appears in Isaiah, is translated literally as "owl". At Bohemian Grove, they worship a statue of an owl. Owl symbolism abounds everywhere, from Divinci's painting of the last supper, to the one dollar bill, to carvings on federal and state buildings. Sometimes the Adversary appears as male, sometimes as female.
As for the sex act being the fall, I've heard that religious bs for years. Anything they can do to make you feel guilty about sex, since sacred sex is the most effective way to achieve the ONENESS of the godhead. Now, combine sacred sex with mushrooms and you have the ancient fertility cult religion upon which Judaism, Christianity, and Islam was built.
Go get a copy of "The Sacred Mushroom and the Cross", written by scholar and linguist, Sr John Alllegro, one of the foremost translators of the Dead Sea Scrolls. He was the only translator that was not Catholic, and after reading and studying the scrolls, he did his life's work "Sacred Mushroom" to prove the real origins of Christianity. He expected to be praised for it. lol The Vatican controls the Dead Sea Scrolls, and has bought the publishing rights to "Sacred Mushroom". I have a copy.
If you want to survive the 2012 crossing, I suggest you begin to commune immediately with the Goddess spirit of the earth with the sacred mushroom.

posted on Apr, 8 2008 @ 09:29 AM
Is the sacred mushroom the cordyceps mushroom? I so hope you say yes because i've been taking the supplements for months now.

here's the Urantia Books view"In the center of the garden temple Van (not sure who he is)planted the Tree of Life, whose leaves were for the "healing of the nations" and whose fruit had so long sustained him on earth." "The "tree of the knowledge of good and evil", may be a figure of speech, a symbolic designation covering a multitude of human experiences, but the "Tree of life" was no myth; and for a lonf time was on Urantia(planet earth)" "This super plant stored up certain space-energies which were antidotal to the age producing elements of animal existance. The fruit of The Tree of Life was like a super chemical storrage battery, mysteriously releasing the life-extension force of the universe when eaten. This form of existance was completly useless to ordanary evolutionary beings(humans) on Urantia."

I believe this book needs to be looked at more than the bible..............

posted on Apr, 8 2008 @ 04:51 PM
Mystic One,

you make an interesting parallel between the 6 day creation and a 6 "day" history! How did you arrive at your Hebrew calendar figure ?

posted on Apr, 8 2008 @ 06:07 PM
Cleverone, I applaud you for your taking the time to think creatively about this issue. The "fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil" has long been something I have considered very deeply myself.

Although I am really enjoyed reading your post, after considering it carefully I think that meat cannot possibly be "the" thing. After all, many animals and insects eat it, and have not shown a corresponding increase in intelligence or brain size. (including our closest genetic cousins, chimps and bonobo's) In fact, I have to believe it cannot be a literal "fruit" or "food" at all, as if there were such a food that stimulated intelligence or brain size, some other creature certainly would have stumbled across it by now and eaten it. Some thinkers on this subject believe it may have been psychedelics, perhaps mushrooms, however even those are commonly eaten by other species both accidentally and purposefully. My own personal feeling is that all literal interpretations for this "fruit" have to be abandoned, if science and evolution are to be combined with these tales in search of a possible "core truth."

Despite the tendency for certain groups to interpret the Bible very literally, it seems to me that it is rich in allegory. My own feeling is that the "eating of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil" refers allegorically to the beginning of dualistic thought. After all, everything that follows, the shame, knowing death, all of these require some splitting of a "whole" into "parts." Ie: Existence into life/death, "All that is" into "good" and "evil," etc. I personally feel this story refers to the beginning of "judgemental thinking" itself, and that once this "leap" was made, an increase in brain size followed suit. (Which would explain the "suffering in childbirth," as humans have difficulty birthing children due to an increase in brain size that has not yet been completely compensated for by an increase in the pelvic opening.) It would also explain the "toiling in the soil for a living" as one would be able to anticipate "starvation" or "want" or "surely know death" once one thought dualistically, and would try to prevent this, rather than as Jesus encourages, trust that God will provide for us as he does "the birds of the air or the lilies of the field."

I think the Neanderthal part was simply not being totally up to date with the rapidly changing body of knowledge about who, what, and when things happened in brain size, no crime at all as the field is changing almost monthly at this point. Neanderthals actually had larger brains than Homo Sapiens. Here is a great link to some info on brain size increase;

Here is another really good article that supports the idea that using the brain in a certain way alone drove the much greater increase in brain size in Homo Sapiens. All mammals had their brain size increase, but some, (like us) more so than others and this article in "New Scientist" examines that. f-most-other-animals-but-its-large-size-is-not-the-only-thing-that-makes-it-so-powerful-.html

If you personally (cleverone) cannot get the entire article to display and WANT to read it, (New Scientist often makes it difficult) just U2U me and I will figure out a way. (I subscribe and may be able to help figure something out)

Here is a pertinent piece from that article; "The great brain race: Over the past three million years the human brain has grown faster than those of most other animals. But its large size is not the only thing that makes it so powerful" by Roger Lewin for New Scientist.

"According to Wilson, brains fuelled their own evolution. When a new behaviour arises in an individual, he argued, it is likely to be acquired by other members of the population that are genetically predisposed to learn it. If the behaviour is beneficial, these individuals will tend to leave more offspring, ensuring that the genetic predisposition to innovation and learning - a trait presumably linked in part to brain size - is propelled by natural selection. Behaviour, not climate change or other external forces, drives evolution, said Wilson: big brains beget bigger brains."

Despite all of the above, you bring up a good point, that meat eating was forbidden humans by the God of Abraham. We were given very specific instructions to eat the fruits of seed bearing plants and trees. The whole thing with Noah being allowed to eat meat after the flood in my personal opinion has been grossly misinterpreted by the priestly class. You were not to eat them with their "lifes blood" in them.

From Genesis 9: 3,4,

"Every living and moving thing will be food for you; I give them all to you as before I gave you all green things. 4 But flesh with the life-blood in it you may not take for food. 5 And for your blood, which is your life, will I take payment; from every beast I will take it, and from every man will I take payment for the blood of his brother-man."

There are those that believe that this was an allowance that one could eat what was already dead, but not kill something. Which would make sense after a flood which would have left may dead things, and ruined crops. Notice it even says "blood, which is your life." In the old days it was noticed that those who lost all their blood died, and so it was thought life was in the blood. Along this school of thought, draining the blood in no way makes it "kosher" to eat meat, because the underlying idea was the same one reiterated in the Ten Commandments, "Thou shalt not kill."

Anyway, great post, thank you for putting up with my two cents, and for allowing me the opportunity to consider alternative ones. The protein brain size increase theory is also supported by some evidence, so it is a good idea, and could well be what they were referring to. Who knows.
At this point all we can do is share theories and information.

posted on Apr, 8 2008 @ 06:42 PM
5768 is the year the Hebrew calendar has arrived at. Below is an online Hebrew calendar:

posted on Apr, 9 2008 @ 04:01 PM
First off Jesus was crucified on a Tree, or a wooden material. Which means Jesus had to make up for the loss of the First SIN.

Mary provided the Sinless Child and woman Kind was saved through that also. Jesus was a man and was able to take that role of sacrifice.
So the Tree of Knowledge was a Tree after all and it was not really what was in the tree maybe it was a placebo but they broke a promise. Then again they did get emotional of knowing Good and Evil so it really litrually means what it means. It can not be anything else. God must have known somewhere along the line that man might have sinned but I don't think Jesus know it would happen, as the Father keeps mysteries from Jesus aswell.

So I think that it was free choice in the end to be like God and God put it there to the test. What if God did not put up the tree of Knowlege?
Are we free then or are we just like the animals to some degree?

We know our earthly children will sin but does not mean we should not have any, every child should have free choices and God probably could not give them free awareness to sin and yet live because we might end up being like God and able to destroy him. So by default we die and that is the order of the making of the Universe. The two can not go togther, eternal life and Sin.

posted on Apr, 9 2008 @ 08:34 PM
has this thread died?

is there an update or progress on the theory? A summary of what has been contributed with respect to the premise would be great to read.

Does the OP still consider the theory still valid after discussing it?

example of what I am talking about:

it would be so good to see more of this kind of post here at ATS.

posted on Apr, 14 2008 @ 01:41 PM
Very interesting theory indeed, gives me another perspective to take on my already 'radical' ideas on Adam and Eve. I won't hijack your thread with them, but I have not gotten good responses from people about my garden theories before.

posted on May, 6 2008 @ 03:17 PM
If the "fruit" of the "tree"-(meat) was an "apple" (apple of the meat: or the "HEART!"). The heart as in don't eat the "Organs". The liver and stomach/intestimes (tripe), The "Brain", that could be a big one. Look at mad cow disease. Maybe eating the Lungs caused a reaction to not only our DNA, but to our Spiritual Soul, which is why they were ashamed of their nakedness, and aging process. No 900+ year olds exist today. And the permanent damage to our DNA is why we are born with original sin. DAMAGED DNA = ORIGINAL SIN. This would explain why original sin was carried through procreation, to every generation. And to achieve enlightenment, We use the immediate (earth bound) and infinite (Heavens) which all elements whether know, unknown, to channel our being until in harmony with all heavens and earths, and by absorbing the vibrations received while connected as one universe, a healing effect occurs restoring our DNA to it's original state; thus eliminating the original sin we are born with, allowing us to enter into the fourth dimension.
Or am I reaching a little as is the OP?

posted on May, 6 2008 @ 03:48 PM
Are you saying that Space-Time started when Eve ate from the hand of the Serpent? Sounds a bit strange that Time-Space would begin 13 billion years after Big Bang if you ask me. What about God himself and his angels? Didn't they perceive Space-Time? If they perceived it it must have been part of the continuum Adam and Eve was already part of. The fruit gave Adam and Eve knowledge that opened their eyes. Obviously part of this knowledge had to do with sex, since they covered their nakedness. It would also have to do with time since Eve received the monthly uncleanness and death -- a lifespan or a generation, time limits. I always said that the Moon was the Fruit of the Tree of Wisdom, and the serpent would be the seamingly serpent like movement of the Moon. Knowledge would be the knowledge of the night, philosophy, procreation etc. all concepts belonging to the Night and the Moon.

posted on May, 6 2008 @ 04:11 PM
great thread. Much thanx to the OP for this new and intriguing idea. Words lose their meaning when translated many times. Midst as we read it to day, could be pretty much anything.

posted on May, 6 2008 @ 04:47 PM
According to the Bible you become what you eat. A lion becomes a man when devouring a man, and a man becomes a lion when devouring a lion.

posted on May, 7 2008 @ 12:59 PM
reply to post by kleverone

one of the first sacrifices given to God was meat, in the story of cain and abel, God accepted the meat offering over the fruits, so i doubt it has to do with the animals

posted on May, 9 2008 @ 03:45 AM
But Abel didn't eat meat accordingly. He kept animals to get milk, eggs, wool and such, and he gave the first ripe as an offering to the Lord. A BBQ smells better than a bushfire, therefore God found Abel's offering more appealing.

Some say that Cain was the first killer, but what about Abel, he killed off probably hundreds of animals in a canage of violence and blood. This probably upset Cain, and when God even seemed to like Abel's offering he was angered and went off to kill his brother. Abel was the first killer, Cain was the first manslaughter.

posted on Jun, 14 2008 @ 01:01 AM
Hey, the person that started this thread said meat made them more intelligent.
That makes sense when we talk about vegetarians then!

posted on Jun, 14 2008 @ 06:53 AM

Originally posted by esseen
reply to post by kleverone

one of the first sacrifices given to God was meat, in the story of cain and abel, God accepted the meat offering over the fruits, so i doubt it has to do with the animals

I believe Yogi Ramacharaka said it best......"The Barbarous conception of a wrathful God whose anger against his people could only be appeased by the slaughter of innocent creatures, is fully equalled by the theological dogmas that the same Divine Wrath could be appeased by the blood of Jesus which had been kindled by the sight of mans shortcomings and sins"

I believe that God never wanted blood sacrifices and this was simply a result of the cloud of ignorance and barbaric thought that ran rampant in the early days of man. I believe we are slowly coming round to the truth.

posted on Jun, 14 2008 @ 06:57 AM

Originally posted by Illusionsaregrander
After all, many animals and insects eat it, and have not shown a corresponding increase in intelligence or brain size. (including our closest genetic cousins, chimps and bonobo's)


Groups of long-tailed macaques were observed four times over the past eight years scooping up small fish with their hands and eating them along rivers in East Kalimantan and North Sumatra provinces, according to researchers from The Nature Conservancy and the Great Ape Trust.

Nobody said that evolution happened over night.

posted on Jun, 14 2008 @ 07:09 PM
Firstly why the Tree. A living thing that produced offspring or fruit.

Why use a tree as the symbol of that which produced something forbidden?

Same as the "fear" of them going on to Partake of the Tree of Life and live forever.

Trees are a rooted system in the earth, something that is governed by the Sun and the process of photosynthisis. There is life blood of a sort, juice or liquid movement necessary to grow and produce it's "fruit" or part of it's essential being.

This makes me think of the possiblility of the original lifeforms made in the likeness and image of the elohim as being independent of a cirulatory system, or life blood.

By partaking of a "tree" or a body of the garden that has it's own genetic code and produces it's own "fruit" would be examplary of separation from the divine. Meaning that Adam and Eve "ate" and became alive as individual procreating beings.

Then we come to the removal of them from the "Garden" or place of more systems of life which would have enabled them to partake of the Tree of Life which could have been representative of evolving from physical beings that lived and biological systems to beings that could utilize the light to enable them to connect with a constant supply of Light, or Life and they could live forever rather than being cyclic like plants and animals who live on through the passing of thier DNA. By eating then the tree of life they may have been stuck forever repeating this process rather than eventually returning to that which they had been originally, balanced beings that did not seperate the male and female aspects and spend lifetimes trying to reconcile such seperation, the desire for wholeness and becoming one once again.

In summary this idea expresses the ability through eating of or having sex with a lifeform that lived and died it would have changed the very idea of adam and eve as self sustained entities.

A couple of other uses regarding a tree. Jesus was cruxified on a "dead" tree. Being that the tree was dead or lifeless and Jesus blood was spilled could be indicative of the cycle of circulatory system life coming to an end creating a path, or freedom from being stuck in that process.

Then we have the symbol of the Hanged Man in the Tarot who hangs upside down on a "living" tree, said to be a "sign" or "warning" for telling secrets or sharing divine knowledge that humans weren't to have, like well.........the knowledge of good and evil in a sense. YOu see he hangs in limbo on a living tree because he has chosen to experience action and consequences.

Anyway................Today's thoughts, Who knows what tomorrow may bring!

This woul

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