It took me some time to find a thread I felt inclined to reply to. As I read the posts I thought it time. While I do not admit to ANY degree or employment in the sciences, but just about every publication in the US on Science is on my coffee table or bookmarked on the net and when I'm not sleeping - i'm reading.

With all the information that comes out of NASA, JPL, Goddard and (most especially) Malin Space - please have your salt shaker in hand and be generouse with it. Through my real job, I got to know several people at JPL and NASA over the years. I even have had email conversations (with a lead scientist on a recent mission) that were abruptly stopped when I asked an apparent wrong question. The bottom line - certain people know the truth, the majority don't know a thing.

I've read over the past year and a half many of you that discredit many individuals - Richard Hoagland comes to mind. While I've enjoyed several dinner conversations with Mr. Hoagland, I agree some of his theories are questionable. I have found many NOT to be. Life on Mars? YES. However, what KIND of life is the question and when? I think the question is when will those "powers at be" decide that mankind can understand and accept the fact that there is life elsewhere in the universe.

My final question: When will the Brookings Report (presented on April 18, 1961 - almost 47 years ago) be updated??

Thank you for your patience to my rambling.

Originally posted by waffles
Did anybody even read my goddamn post? You are the most unscientific bunch of kooks I've ever chanced to hear opinionate, and I thought *I* was a kook.

...

Let me restate, since I think my post was too scientific for this crowd.

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You people need to read a 6th grade textbook.

I think you should maybe do more research before blowing your top, you are ignoring the effect of salt in your equations. Salt will not only raise the boiling point of water but drops the freezing point as well. What's more the air pressure on Mars at sea level (nominally average) is between 0.6 - 1kp - variation seasonally - which puts the boiling point of water above 0 degrees celcius. at times, and more likely in the lower regions. Numerous salt deposits have already been found in teh form of chlorides and bromides in rock samples taken by Spirit and Opportunity.

It may be fleeting but it is scientific, so don't go attacking everyone just because some photoshopped pictures annoy you.







[edit on 7-4-2008 by Shere Khaan]

Excellent, definitely deserves funding.

Originally posted by Shere Khaan

Originally posted by waffles
Did anybody even read my goddamn post? You are the most unscientific bunch of kooks I've ever chanced to hear opinionate, and I thought *I* was a kook.

...

Let me restate, since I think my post was too scientific for this crowd.

...
You people need to read a 6th grade textbook.

I think you should maybe do more research before blowing your top, you are ignoring the effect of salt in your equations. Salt will not only raise the boiling point of water but drops the freezing point as well. What's more the air pressure on Mars at sea level (nominally average) is between 0.6 - 1kp - variation seasonally - which puts the boiling point of water above 0 degrees celcius. at times, and more likely in the lower regions. Numerous salt deposits have already been found in teh form of chlorides and bromides in rock samples taken by Spirit and Opportunity.

It may be fleeting but it is scientific, so don't go attacking everyone just because some photoshopped pictures annoy you.

Its not so much the photoshopped pictures, its the complete lack of evidence of anything followed by everyone agreeing 'oh yeah, totally, yep, life everywhere, liquid water sure.'
I'm also not even using any 'equations.' I'm not talking about water literally BOILING, I'm talking about the vapor pressure being extremely high. Not only is the vapor pressure of ice reasonable at that ambient pressure, but the vapor pressure of water is nigh-boiling. I don't think you are clear on this- water that is right below boiling, is still evaporating at almost the same rate.

Of course salts and any dissolved material has an effect on boiling and freezing points, but salts will have virtually no effect on the vapor pressure at 1/100 of an atmosphere- it will still be extraordinarily high.

Originally posted by zorgon
+81° F Downright tropical Anyone who thinks that liquid water can't exist at +81° F is quite 'balmy'

And anyone with your knowledge and access to information that ignores pressure is what?

You can do better than that.

Evaporation is a factor of elevation and temperature. Using Mount Everest to compare with Hellas Planitia on MARS we must invert understanding of pressure because we don't have a six mile deep continent here on Earth.
Everest is 29,028 ft. high, low pressure very low boiling point.
Hellas is 30,000 ft. deep and it atmospheric pressure is considerably great then TPTB will let you think.

Originally posted by ArMaP
[

Have you ever heard the expression "standard temperature and pressure"?

I

Originally posted by Woodlock
Can we agree that the higher you go in elevation here on Earth, generally speaking it gets easier for water to boil.

Yes, we can.

Less air pressure, think?

Less air pressure. That is the reason.

I know you know that you just act like you don't.

I thought I said that, I don't know why you are saying that.

Less air pressure mean faster evaporation, just generally, anomaly like. I know you agree.

I don't understand that "anomaly like" part, so I cannot agree with something I don't understand.

It's just like the lower you go in elevation, you know , below sea level. See I said it; "below sea level." Mars does not have a sea level to go by ArMap. You act like you don't know this.

No, I don't, I thought I said that the higher the pressure the harder it is to evaporate (and boil) water.

Mars has some thing Earth does not have. SIX MILE DEEP CONTINENT. The atmosphere is much thicker and heaver down there.

It's much thicker than on the rest of Mars, but the atmosphere on Mars has only 1% of the pressure of that of the Earth.

You don't get it ArMap! It's my pic. I made it from the MARCIA raw data! It's Hellas full of fog. SIX MILES DEEP of water fog.

I saw "your" picture and I have seen some other pictures with fog and clouds, but there are two things I have never seen: proof that the fog is water fog, as you say and liquid water, and that was what we were talking about, not ice, not vapour, but liquid water.


I really don't understand what is the problem, if it is I that can not understand what you say (maybe because it's getting late or just because I do not understand English as good as I liked, I have some difficulty understanding what you write) or if it is you that do not understand or do not want to understand what I have said.

Show me data that says that there are conditions (temperature and pressure) on the surface of Mars (in any place, it could be Hellas basin) and will agree that there could be liquid water on Mars surface.

Did you saw that page with temperature and pressure data that I posted?

Showing fog or ice does not mean that there is liquid water on the surface, it may even help proving that water on Mars passes directly from ice to vapour.

Originally posted by ArMaP
I saw "your" picture and I have seen some other pictures with fog and clouds, but there are two things I have never seen: proof that the fog is water fog, as you say and liquid water, and that was what we were talking about, not ice, not vapour, but liquid water.


I

You seem straight forward.
I not here to nitpick.

But you said;
"your" picture?
Thee picture.
You've never seen a "picture" like mine, like this pic. I said "pic". Pic means; take a good look.
This pic is a photo made with a camera that comes from scientific correct data. You haven't seen a photograph, a digital image photograph like this. If you knew the work put it to this !?# get on my bad side? will u?


Tell me this. Just what do you see when you see all that white at the bottom of the photo.
You see what you want to see. You can deny my presumptions if you like. It's not my fault you don't add up the facts.

Don't feel bad. Nobody knows this is real data. Go look at Malin's.

Originally posted by ArMaP
You can do better than that.

yes I can... but why?

Besides maybe you have bad data on the REAL pressure on Mars...