BIG Question about 'Reincarnation'

Originally posted by Vanitas
Where and WHEN exactly are we going to use that wisdom, perfection, our bettered selves?

If we are already a part of G-d, or in G-d's image, or G-d's face(t)s - and we're supposed to ascend (back?) to that godly state... what would be the purpose of that, since G-d is by definition perfect and all-encompassing (at least it was so the last time I looked ; ))?

Absolutely. And that is one of the "reasons" I feel most "spiritual people" fail to achieve the "state" they are hoping for. It would not so much be an ascension back to some perfect state, but rather a realization that you are in this perfect state in the immediate present. Now. Not at the end of some process, not after certain things have happened, or have been done by you.

The structure of the mind itself causes us (as we know ourselves, our "identities" or "ego's") to make assumptions, and these assumptions in the differing spiritual traditions are "dualism" or "judgment." Regardless what you call it, it is the same concept. The splitting of "what is," something wholly un-dividable, or more accurately something beyond our concept of division, totally alien to it, into "parts" and labeling them. (Good/bad, now/then, pleasure/suffering, alive/dead, etc.)

The "lesson" if one chooses to call it that, is to bring ones awareness, ones Consciousness, into focus and "realize" perfection NOW. Not create it, not pursue it, those are only superficially different versions of the same "imperfection" or "error." But to see it, become aware of it, right now. In the immediate present. Not by trying, again trying is "not the way," but by accepting, surrendering to "What is," and experiencing it without struggle or the desire to escape or change it.

So yes, Nirvana is "absence." Absence of desire to escape, struggle, dualism, polarity, division. It is, as you point out, also not "joy" and pleasure, as these are also dualistic, judgmental, but it is a "bliss." I think many teachers have tried to point out that "bliss" is a translation of a word that English has no real correlary for. I would say that the state, being utterly devoid of dualism is indescribable with language, since language itself is "dualistic" or used to point out differences. It is a pointer only, not a literal "truth."

What is the purpose? Well, just an opinion, but this is how it occurs to me. There are people who play video games that get so fiercely identified, "attached" to their characters, or goals in the game, or "possesions" in the game, that the loss of or injury to any of these causes them suffering. Depression, sadness, rage, anger, stress, etc. Although it is a game, and meant to be "fun," for some people it sure doesnt look like fun. People have even committed suicide, or killed other people over offenses committed to their character or possession in the "game."

A game is most "fun" when it is played for the experience of playing alone. "Win" or "lose." If you "have" to hit some level, or accomplish some task, it is less enjoyable. Particularly if you fail to accomplish your goal.

Many of the great teachers seem to be saying that Awareness itself of the experience of Being, (non-dualistically, regardless of life/death) is the whole point. Embodiment offers particular experiences, and so this state is "something to be experienced" as gaming is to humans. Being able to have "fun" doing this, despite the architecture of the mind's predisposition to "judge" or "divide" into "good/bad" seems to be the point. Experiencing "heaven on Earth" by not judging even the judgment of the mental apparatus in the moment. Being Aware, and conscious of the experience of Being, without allowing the mind and its judgments to overwhelm that experience of Being with "struggle against" or "desire to escape" or even "I like this I dont want it to end."

That to me seems the point. Realizing perfection IS, right now, "not moving towards it," (which would then be away from it if it is here, now) or "creating it." After all, even the experience of "time" is divisive, dualistic, and incompatible with the mystic description of the Divine or "All that is."

[edit on 9-4-2008 by Illusionsaregrander]

reply to post by TheDuckster


I believe all memories of past lives are "archived" in our deep subconsciousness, so as to not interfere with everyday decisions on our new life. Sometimes these "archived" memories "bleed through" in dreams or in times of extreme personal danger. I know. it has happened to me several times. I have experienced death in several past lifetimes over and over in identical dreams.


Remember:
If Hell were a donut, then all roads must lead to Rome.

I think the belief is that you're born into a better situation. I.E. More money, smarter, better looking. Which is ironic because Hindus (who believe in reincarnation) believe in maya. In other words, the world is an illusion. Material things do not matter. So if the world is an illusion and you're born into a better life materialistically, what would you've gained?

Originally posted by Maerjo.
I think the belief is that you're born into a better situation. I.E. More money, smarter, better looking. Which is ironic because Hindus (who believe in reincarnation) believe in maya. In other words, the world is an illusion. Material things do not matter. So if the world is an illusion and you're born into a better life materialistically, what would you've gained?

I think there is just as much to learn about being rich as there is to being poor... being ugly to attractive... being in a loving environment to a hostil one.

My teenage years weren't the most stable ones, but I've learned so much from it and I'd go through it again if it helped me learn just a little more.

I think the idea is that after so many incarnations, you'd naturally live a life of complete purity, thus ending the cycle of incarnation. Buddha said that or somethin, ha, as you can see I don't really know the source of that.

Its all part of an elaborate pattern if you ask me, illusion, or illusion and reality the same? Would it matter less if it was all an illusion? I think the belief is that is a perception we collectively create and that to experience it through an individual perspective is just one vantage point to view ones self, and ones world. So an individual's reality, is affected by everyone and everything. Just like how...one mans good karma is another ones bad... maybe I wanted a new bike and one appeared on my lawn, but someone had to get their stolen. And in terms of incarnation, I could see there being limitations or situations but it would also revolve around what the rest of the universe wants... like... what if you wanted re-incarnate with some of the same family members... only.. you wanna be poor... but they all wanna be rich... maybe you'd have to compromise... or you'd start off rich and then become poor later in life..


There is something be to learned from every situation, good or bad in my oppinion. Its all knowledge.

But in the end, its up for you to decide, don't listen to me, i'm just voicing what i personaly think.

Originally posted by Vanitas
OK, I am going to play the devil's advocate here.
(I mention this explicitly, so there are no words wasted on lecturing ME personally - I have no dog in this race, not really - but rather just addressing the question itself.

)

We are here (and born again) to learn.
We are here (and born again) to perfect ourselves - or, alternatively, to realise certain aspects that were hidden from us before.
We are here (and born again) to gain wisdom.

Where and WHEN exactly are we going to use that wisdom, perfection, our bettered selves?

Tough nut to crack. There is no good way to explain it. You are a part or essence of God. If through your cycle a preponderance of good is shown every time, a natural progression takes place. If not a torturous cycle reigns until the the debt to the law is paid in full. If the debt is not paid after several chances, your essence is re assimilated and ceases to exist.

When all debt is paid to the law and growth has reached the point of perfection you may come and go as you wish to assist with worldly affairs.

Often perfected souls, lose empathy due to being out of the flesh, and will hunger to know suffering. they may or may not be allowed to return for just this one purpose. Many leave and have to answer for the awol upon return, which is a risk that they again lose choice and begin a new cycle. I know this makes no sense to say here but if you spent eons without feeling anything but love, you would take the risk, to know suffering, so you could once again not be detached from those you assist. These wise ones do not choose a profession where they deal with suffering, they choose the suffering personally. Great respect should be given the handicapped and downtrodden,as they are often great masters in the disguise of the flesh. Probably a poor way to describe things, and I did not link to text, so believe, or not. I dare not say more.

Often, often, often, goes Christ in the strangers guise.

there is a movie that everyone should see at one time or another.
It does a good job of showing the legend of the Silkie.
Well, in this story, these two children end up going in a boat to a close offshore island of the north of Ireland.
They find these old style stone houses that were left vacant since the island was evacuated during world war two.
They fix up one of the houses to make it livable.
I could have sworn that this was my old house and I had this powerful urge to go to it.
It upset me because I missed it so badly and I cryed for a long time.
I have never been near Ireland and I believe that I did.
It had to have been in a past life.
Oops, the name is The Secret of Roan Innish.



[edit on 9-4-2008 by jmdewey60]

[edit on 9-4-2008 by jmdewey60]

[edit on 9-4-2008 by jmdewey60]

[edit on 9-4-2008 by jmdewey60]

Lucky me.
That someone would make a movie about someone fixing up my old house.
I can turn on my tv and be right back home.
That is, home before I died and was born in the US.
It is pretty convenient.

I can not answer any of these questions other than I somehow would know exactly where I was if I suddenly find myself in that place where people go when they are between lives.
I had that happen once and all I can figure is I was there to talk to someone there who did not understand where he was.
I spend a lot of time every day thinking about what I am going to do in my next life.
I do not know why this is unless I am going to die.
I listened to a doctor on coast to coast recently who constantly dealt with dying patiants and he said there was always someone who came to them, from the other side, to explain what is going to happen.
Very creepy.
The thing I got from it is to not fight against the vision and the sooner you accept it the better you will be prepaired.

[edit on 9-4-2008 by jmdewey60]

I think that the reason you do not remember past lives is similar to some other posters ideas.
• traumatic events. part of life but shouldn't be baggage
• failures. I need to overcome them not dwell in them
• confusion over lives. What did I do when?
• too much info, not all of it is necessary
• a clean slate encourages originality
• we have karmic balance to maintain
• if we knew, would we take the easy road or the useful one?

Incidentally, I don't think all of our consciousness is used during each incarnation. Our higher self decides when and what we should remember

I would like to recommend some written research on the subject. It is called "Journey of Souls" by Dr. Michael Newton.

Namaste

-Xanthur

So if the world is an illusion and you're born into a better life materialistically, what would you've gained?

The only thing that we incarnate for... Experience

Dude, I can remember living in the pre-cambrian period and I certainly remember several lives I spent as a dinosaur..those were the good times.

Often, often, often, goes Christ in the strangers guise.

"Often"?
I'd say all the time... And under highly unexpected aspects.

This is - or rather, should be - a given, everyone should be aware of that.
But I know better... Which is why I think the quote above, especially, absolutely deserves to be singled out.








[edit on 4-5-2008 by Vanitas]

So if the world is an illusion and you're born into a better life materialistically, what would you've gained?

TIME, Maerjo.
Leisure translates into time: the most precious 'possession' one can have.
The ONLY 'possession' that anyone is ever after.

All the ancient Greek (and other) philosophers - that we know of, obviously, because they had the time to and the means to make their ideas widely known - were men of leisure.

Why do you think that was so? :-)