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Why Muslims should be treated with more respect

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posted on Aug, 29 2008 @ 03:25 AM
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reply to post by babloyi
 


So bobloyi, Do You agree, that anyone who would commit an honor killing it truly a terrible person, and deserves all the horror promised in hell? Can you openly condemn honor killings as a horrible attrocity here on the forum?

Apparently, a large number of those backward tribes that practice honor killings have migrated to Europe and N. America, because there are wide spread honor killings being carried out by Muslims in Europe and N. America.

I provided your own link to point out the discrepancies in what Muhammad preaches as the word of God. By the very own verses you have provided, the Koran gives very broad reasons for fighting non-Muslims.




posted on Aug, 29 2008 @ 03:28 AM
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Muslims should be treated with more respect just because they are Human, like us. They are just trying to get by in life, just as we are. THey aren't terrorists. They want to live and feed their children. Everyone has the right to believe in what they want.



posted on Aug, 29 2008 @ 03:55 AM
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reply to post by alundaio
 


Thankyou Che (I mean alundaio)

You're the first person to fully back up what I am saying. Others are basically in agreement, I believe, but have expressed some genuine concerns which need to be expressed, and which are being answered and discussed in ways I find quite enlightening - from both sides. (Most of the time.)

I am still not sure what percentage of readers would go along with your comment without significant provisos and what percentage feels cagey as they regard this attitude as naive to some degree. Hopefully it will become more apparent.



posted on Aug, 29 2008 @ 04:43 AM
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Originally posted by alundaio
Muslims should be treated with more respect just because they are Human, like us. They are just trying to get by in life, just as we are. THey aren't terrorists. They want to live and feed their children. Everyone has the right to believe in what they want.


Too true.
Perhaps Muslims should bear this in mind in their dealings with non-believers, (Kaffirs).

You tend to reap what you sow in this world and I suggest that the apparent lack of respect that is offered some Muslims, in some places, is a direct response to the complete lack of respect that is offered by some Muslims.

I refuse to show anyone any respect who offers me none.

Oh, lest I forget, yes, everyone has the right to believe what they want, but.....no-one has the right to impose their beliefs upon me, a basic tenet of Islam!
Now some Muslims and their apologists will claim this not to be true, and to a certain extent they are correct, but the brand of Muslim fundamentalism that is spreading and most vocal preaches complete intolerance, jihad and the imposition of Sharia Law, on everyone.
Not very rspectful in my book.

Until Muslims themselves, on a significant scale, accept some level of responsibility and take affirmative action to address the issues within their own communities / societies, then I see little chance of them being shown much respect at all from the me.

However, I must say that I am not that bigotted that I would not offer an indiviual less respect than that offered towards me.



posted on Aug, 29 2008 @ 05:37 AM
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reply to post by Ersatz
 

Hello again, Ersatz!

(To use your example) If you say that the sky is green, and refuse to believe otherwise, and I attempt to show that the sky is blue, would I be considered 'morbidly interested' in the colour of the sky, because I concentrated only on this point? I don't understand. Out of about a 300 word post to you, I used about 30 talking about taqiyaa. How does that make me morbidly interested in it?
I keep showing you quranic verses to prove my point about Islam, and you respond with "But people do this! And this guy says that!". I'm sorry, but that is irrelevant. For example, the al-islam.org website article: First off, you may not have noticed, but that article is based off the shia viewpoint, and is very critical of sunni islam. Second, it says that the Sunni viewpoint is AGAINST taqiyya (not something I consider true, but an interesting point nonetheless). Second, EVERY example they give there (while I wouldn't consider every one of them authentic and reliable) involves a threat of death or torture.

As for your 'According to your logic...' argument, it seems your logic has not realised something very important: If something is forbidden under a certain law, and a person still does it, you can't really say 'that law is evil! It allows such and such a thing!".


reply to post by poet1b
 

Hello again, poet1b!


Originally posted by poet1b
So bobloyi, Do You agree, that anyone who would commit an honor killing it truly a terrible person, and deserves all the horror promised in hell? Can you openly condemn honor killings as a horrible attrocity here on the forum?

I'd say they were an very misguided person, and while it is not my place to assign people to hell, I wouldn't hold back in the condemning.

While I'm not talking about you, specifically, it seems that many posters in ATS (and people in the non-muslim world, perhaps?) seem to think that Islam is divided into "Those that do nasty things, and those that don't stop them or condemn them". This is hardly true. When someone on these forums calls me out to condemn a certain evil act, and I do, then they respond with "You're not condemning hard enough!". When something is wrong and immoral, then it is wrong and immoral. How hard do I need to condemn? Seems a very strange attitude.



Originally posted by poet1b
Apparently, a large number of those backward tribes that practice honor killings have migrated to Europe and N. America, because there are wide spread honor killings being carried out by Muslims in Europe and N. America.

It is not only 'muslims' that carry out honour killings. It is also Hindus, Sikhs and even Christians. As I said, it is not a practice tied to any one religion. It is a cultural practice.

[edit on 29-8-2008 by babloyi]



posted on Aug, 29 2008 @ 06:35 AM
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reply to post by babloyi
 


You have a slippery way of saying things, leaving it open to differing interpretations. Saying you would not hold back on the condemning leaves things very much open.

Others do carry out different forms of honor killings, but the practice is far more prevalent in Muslim nations.

www.gendercide.org...


"The Progressive Women's Association, which assists attack victims, tracked 3,560 women who were hospitalized after being attacked at home with fire, gasoline or acid between 1994 and 1999," according to Constable. About half the victims died. Lawyer and women's activist Nahida Mahbooba Elahi states that "We deal with these cases every day, but I have seen very few convictions. The men say the wife didn't obey their orders, or was having relations with someone else. The police often say it is a domestic matter and refuse to pursue the case. Some judges even justify it and do not consider it murder."



posted on Aug, 29 2008 @ 07:05 AM
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reply to post by poet1b
 


Originally posted by poet1b
You have a slippery way of saying things, leaving it open to differing interpretations. Saying you would not hold back on the condemning leaves things very much open.

Oh dear....I was hoping this would not happen here. I'd like some clarification...do you believe that I am openly saying that honour killing is bad, while secretively I agree with it, and support it's practice? If not, what is your meaning?

I don't know how much more clearly I can say it:
Honour killing is bad
I don't support honour killings
I condemn honour killings
I would never practice honour killing
Honour killing goes against my beliefs
Honour killing is not allowed in Islam

Is that enough?

Wait a second...I just thought of something! Perhaps your response was just a joke, a way of teasing because of what I said in my previous post. In that case...hahah! You got me there.

[edit on 29-8-2008 by babloyi]



posted on Aug, 29 2008 @ 01:35 PM
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reply to post by Freeborn
 


Which Muslims do you speak of? As far as I know, Muslim-Americans are somtimes treated with hatred and discrimination. They didn't come over here to get jumped in the streets, or preach what they believe. Muslims in other countries are too busy fighting eachother. Those are the "Extremists" anyway. There are Extremists to any religion. Every single religion, including fake ones such as Scientology, has killed people over their beliefs. They hate our corrupt Capitalism more than our freedom of religion.



posted on Aug, 29 2008 @ 04:42 PM
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reply to post by pause4thought
 


my wife and i try to treat everyone with respect regardless of how much we might disagree with their theology or politics----but when they start to shove their ideas (when we might disagree with them) down our throats then its a different matter and depending on how much we are pushed around we usually react accordingly.
we are not robots and neither does G-D want us to be-----if the lemmings desire to drown themselves they should not expect us to willingly follow them.



posted on Aug, 29 2008 @ 04:48 PM
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reply to post by yahn goodey
 


Hi yahn!

Could you possibly say what these experiences were? Do you believe they typify Muslim behaviour?



posted on Aug, 29 2008 @ 06:10 PM
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reply to post by yahn goodey
 


sorry for the ---- off topic
but whats with the ----?
sorry always wanted to know since you do it all your posts

edit
is it fill in the blanks? game

[edit on 29-8-2008 by bodrul]



posted on Aug, 29 2008 @ 06:24 PM
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reply to post by pause4thought
 


the arabs i have worked next to never gave 1 bit of trouble.
so called self deceived "christians" and athiests have been far more of a problem while trying to convert me to their way of thinking.
come to think of it 1 of my best friends is an arab ron abbas by name----but he does not believe in the muslim religion-----he converted to judaism.



posted on Aug, 29 2008 @ 06:27 PM
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reply to post by bodrul
 


so?-----i am lazy and this is easy---------yet you still understand what i am saying?
i am a non conformist----------always will be till death---------no hard feelings------i hope ?



posted on Aug, 30 2008 @ 01:13 AM
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Originally posted by babloyi

As for your 'According to your logic...' argument, it seems your logic has not realised something very important: If something is forbidden under a certain law, and a person still does it, you can't really say 'that law is evil! It allows such and such a thing!".


Which law are you talking about?

You obviously do not understand the concept of “ Judge them by their fruits” or “ACTIONS SPEAK LOUDER THAN WORDS”


In my previous post I asked you specific questions which you have omitted to answer.

I will ask them again, I inserted the word question in brackets to emphasize the points where I would appreciate your comments:

1) Whether the translation is friend or ally, the reality is that Muslims do not make friends with non Muslims, they do not integrate in western society.
ALMOST a third of British Muslim students believe killing in the name of Islam can be justified, according to a poll.
www.timesonline.co.uk...

This behaviour causes reciprocal distrust.

Why didn’t your enlightened God foresee this obvious problem? (Question)


2) What about the doctors that lived and practised in England for years before turning terrorists;
Did they have a gun at their head when they were disguising their hate for the non Muslims? (question)


3) Isn’t it irresponsible on the part of Allah to reveal words that have a meaning for some Muslims and a completely different meaning for other Muslims? (question)


4) Where and how does the Quran promote universal brotherhood? (question)



posted on Aug, 30 2008 @ 01:22 AM
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And for those who want to see what kind of preaching goes on in Mosques that are supposed to be spreading tolerant and peaceful Islam then go watch the original Channel 4 "Undercover Mosque".

www.youtube.com...


A new documentary has been made:

THE RETURN OF UNDERCOVER MOSQUE.

For those who live in England.
Dispatches: Undercover Mosque: The Return will air on Channel 4 on September 1 at 8pm.

The documentary, another undercover investigation into extremism in mainstream British mosques, featured preachers calling for homosexuals to be killed, espousing male supremacy, condemning non-Muslims and predicting jihad.

It has now emerged that the same production team have revisited the subject to "see whether extremist beliefs continue to be promoted in certain key British Muslim institutions".

In the new documentary, a female reporter attends prayer meetings at an important British mosque which claims to be dedicated to moderation and "dialogue with other faiths".

According to Channel 4, "she secretly films sermons given to the women-only congregation in which female preachers recite extremist and intolerant beliefs".

In one scene, as hundreds of women and some children come to pray, a preacher calls for adulterers, homosexuals, women who act like men and Muslim converts to other faiths to be killed, saying: "Kill him, kill him. You have to kill him, you understand. This is Islam."

Channel 4 also said that in the same mosque, "the reporter visits the bookshop and discovers books and DVDs still on sale, promoting extremist, anti-Semitic, misogynistic and intolerant messages".

The undercover reporter also "films inside a key Saudi-funded Muslim organisation, which claims to promote tolerance and integration yet distributes literature which promotes intolerance for non-Muslims, an extreme version of sharia law and teachings which support discrimination against women".

A former Foreign Office minister tells Dispatches he thinks the government should take a stronger line on the issue.

The film also includes interviews with Islamic academics who condemn messages of intolerance and segregation and warn of the impact they will have on British society.


You draw your own conclusions about the religion of Peace.



posted on Aug, 30 2008 @ 01:45 AM
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Originally posted by alundaio
Muslims should be treated with more respect just because they are Human, like us. They are just trying to get by in life, just as we are. THey aren't terrorists. They want to live and feed their children. Everyone has the right to believe in what they want.


How little you know Islam...

According to their Holy Book everyone DOES NOT have the right to believe what they want.

The purpose is that all religion should be for Allaah alone, and that the word of Allaah should be supreme.

From the Quran: If anyone desires a religion other than Islam (submission to Allah), never will it be accepted of him; and in the Hereafter He will be in the ranks of those who have lost (All spiritual good).

The Quran teaches Muslims that Unbelievers are human scum, only Muslims are humans.

The Quran states clearly that Islam is a "reform movement for the world." This means that they must convert everyone.

Islam degrades women by assuming that they are responsible for the lust in men, that they must be hidden, covered, and prevented from full participation in society. This is evil.

Muslims should try to understand one thing. Religion is something personal between you and God. Most people are quite prepared to leave it at that. But when religion is imposed upon others, or their lives are affected by religion, then religion is no longer personal.
You have just dragged religion into the public domain so it now has to suffer public scrutiny. If you want others to stay out of your religion, then your religion has to stay out of their lives as well.



posted on Aug, 30 2008 @ 07:38 AM
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reply to post by alundaio
 


I am not American and speak of the rise of Muslim fundamentalism here in the UK.
Barely a week goes by without one plot or another being foiled.

I recognise that not all Muslims are extremists, however, the vast majority of Muslims do little to to counteract the activities of these extremists.
They turn a blind eye to their doings and plead ignorance whenever a plot to commit an act of terrorism etc is unearthed.
Muslims constantly refuse to accept any responsibility for the actions of these people and unless they actively seek to do so the gulf between Muslims and Non-Muslims will increase.

Britain has a history of absorbing the best of immigrant cultures.

The very nature of Islamic fundamentalism prohibits any integration with Kaffirs and the imposition of Sharia, by any means necessary.

As a result we have 'no-go areas' for Non-Muslims which the PC governed Police are scared to adress and turn a blind eye to.
We have a refusal to integrate.
We have a situation where 40% of Muslims openly support the imposition of Sharia.
We have a situation where 20% of Muslims openly support acts of terrorism against the UK and her allies.
We have extreme interpretations of Islam being openly preached in various Mosques and active recruitment of terrorists.

Yes, it is the minority of Muslims, but this minority is growing at a rapid rate and the 'majority' of peace loving, law abiding Muslims do very little, if anything, to cull this vile doctrine of hatred and subjugation.

Muslims account for 2.8% of the overall UK population.
They have a say and influence that far outweighs this.

Unless drastic measures to address the root causes of the current situation are taken, as distasteful as they may seem, then I am genuinely scared that there will be a bloodbath in this country.

I sincerely hope that I am not perceived as an anti-muslim, hate filled individual, I most certainly am not.
The truth is rarely nice.



posted on Aug, 30 2008 @ 08:51 AM
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reply to post by Ersatz
 

I was not talking about any law. I was giving an example that mirrored your attitude towards the idea of taqiyya.

About the article on the survey you posted, you may notice that even the article itself calls into question the validity of the survey, considering the unscholarly way it was done, and the misinterpreting of the results. Also, your statement that Muslims do not make friends with non-muslims is false, so your question is based on a number of assumptions. There is no 'obvious problem'.


Your second question also seems to be based on some assumptions, mainly that the individuals that attacked the airport in the UK were practising taqiyya (or, for that matter, the assumption that they were following Islam).


The Quran may have many layers of meaning, but this does not mean it is not exactingly clear about whatever it is talking about, when it is talked about. The verse I gave you differentiating between kafirs and non-muslims is a good example. EVEN IF a person, reading from a limited translation, new to islam, or such, reads (for example) 'awliya' as 'friends', if they read the whole Quran (even at an amateurish level like myself), and found it wouldn't match up with the rest of it- and then a little further research would show that 'friends' is not really the best translation!
The problem here isn't Islam (or the Quran) being vague or contradictory, it's that people, even though they may claim to 'Submit to God', don't have a proper knowledge of the Quran, and that they don't bother to find out about it. They are willing to accept the words of 'village mullahs' (who, while they might show them the right path, may also brainwash them for their own gain).


About the Quran promoting universal brotherhood, here are two verses from memory:
www.usc.edu...
www.usc.edu...



posted on Sep, 1 2008 @ 01:12 AM
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Originally posted by babloyi

Also, your statement that Muslims do not make friends with non-Muslims is false, so your question is based on a number of assumptions. There is no 'obvious problem'.


My statement is not false, it reflects reality. Muslims do not make friends or integrate with non Muslims. (Perhaps in America all is sugar & honey)

There is no greater domestic socio-political struggle in Europe than what some nations have defined as “the problem” of the integration of their Muslim populations into the society.

Unfortunately, many Muslims do not understand that when they choose to become citizens of a country and make it their home, they also embrace its culture, customs, habits and social behaviour. This is a reality that is as clear as daylight. All Muslims have to do is accept it. Unfortunately, even Muslims who came to Europe decades ago do not understand this fundamental reality.

As long as the Muslims do not truly integrate with their “host societies”, they will continue to cause and face hostility.



Originally posted by babloyi
Your second question also seems to be based on some assumptions, mainly that the individuals that attacked the airport in the UK were practicing taqiyya (or, for that matter, the assumption that they were following Islam).


My second question was:
2) What about the doctors that lived and practiced in England for years before turning terrorists;
Did they have a gun at their head when they were disguising their hate for the non Muslims?

They confessed to being Muslims after arrest.

You did not reply as to whether they had a gun at their head ….

All doctors swear an oath to protect and preserve life; these doctors not only broke their oath, they were also hiding their profound hate for non Muslims.

Muslims call this Taqiyya, you are doing it now: “defend you own, the truth can wait”; also known as intellectual dishonesty.


Originally posted by babloyi

The Quran may have many layers of meaning, but this does not mean it is not exactingly clear about whatever it is talking about, when it is talked about. The verse I gave you differentiating between kafirs and non-muslims is a good example.
They are willing to accept the words of 'village mullahs' (who, while they might show them the right path, may also brainwash them for their own gain).


On what authority do you claim that esteemed and accepted translators such as Tafsir Ibn Kathir, Yusef Ali, Pickthall, Shakir and Arberry are like “village mullahs”?


Originally posted by babloyi

About the Quran promoting universal brotherhood, here are two verses from memory:
www.usc.edu...
www.usc.edu...


The FIRST link, when Mohammed recites: O mankind! We created you from a single (pair) of a male and a female….

Can be discarded because he is addressing only Muslims.
Allah would never make the theological mistake to assert that all humanity was created from a single pair of male and female.
He knows very well that Adam and Eve and Jesus had different origin.


The SECOND link can also be discarded because the verse was subsequently nullified and substituted by the Verse of the Sword.



Abrogated surah
AL-MUMTAHINA 8
Allah forbids you not, with regard to those who fight you not for (your) Faith nor drive you out of your homes, from dealing kindly and justly with them: for Allah loveth those who are just. AT-

Substituted TAWBA 5
But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, an seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practice regular charity, then open the way for them: for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.
www.thequran.com...,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,41,46,51,66,71



Neither of the 2 verses you have chosen encourage/promote Universal Brotherhood.

And EVEN IF they did, the following 502 verses promoting intolerance and hate confirm that you are wrong and hiding the facts.:

skepticsannotatedbible.com...



posted on Sep, 1 2008 @ 03:54 AM
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reply to post by yahn goodey
 



the arabs i have worked next to never gave 1 bit of trouble

Thank you for clearing that up. Many can testify to the same.

I remember hearing about the evil man who was responsible for kidnapping and beheading Westerners in Iraq. He was just a twisted criminal with a long record of criminal activity. The fact that he chose to 'legitimize' his bloodlust via the convenient vehicle of Islamic extremism proved nothing about your average Muslim.


reply to post by Ersatz
 


The challenges that you've provided for babloyi have involved some very worthwhile questions. However I have to say that that last link you provided comes across as very crass. In addition to Koranic quotes it lists out-of-context Bible quotes, and as someone who is intimately acquainted with the Bible I have to say the way they have been put together displays woeful ignorance and misunderstanding of Biblical themes and backgrounds. I have to say that I can only assume the way quotes from the Koran have been put together is on a similar level, which invalidates their contribution as far as I am concerned.

You previously stated that you were not a Christian, which does clarify why you might link to such a source. Fair enough. However I'm now inclined to think you need to look at the context of any quotes you bring in before using them, otherwise there is a real danger that you begin to shoot yourself in the foot. And on the evidence I have seen so far you are very capable of debating well above that level.



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