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The conspiracy to suppress knowledge

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posted on Apr, 5 2008 @ 06:16 PM
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What dissappeared in the black hole of the "dark middle age"?


In some respects it would seem that the people from the 3rd up to around the 14th-15th Century were more ignorant than people before that.

They suddenly thought the earth was flat...although the ancient greeks knew that the earth was round.

They said Columbus discovered america...although there were already people there when they arrived. Although the Vikings and possibly even the Chinese had been there before that.

They had religious crusades that burnt scripts rather than treasuring them.

It would seem that we owe a lot of the "unknowns" surrounding ancient history to the stupidity in the "dark ages".

It would also seem that we experienced a cyclical decline during that time rather than movement upwards. Egypt had fallen, Greece had fallen, Rome had fallen...

...clearly showing a devolution rather than progress.

The point? Maybe evolution/history IS cyclic rather than linear.




posted on Apr, 5 2008 @ 11:28 PM
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reply to post by Hanslune
 


the patterns ARE created:
bankers(*) organise wars to create debt/consolidate control. War is over, they live off the debt and organise themselves using their new found power, then once they have it all sorted, they start another war, wash rinse repeat.

Now this could be considered a "natural" cycle, but only if you assume (and you could be right...) that it is "natural" for the masses to not have a clue what is really going on behind the scenes.

As to the poster saying world war one and two could be considered the same using fomenkos ideas:
You are missing the entire point of it (I think). He is not saying: "oh look, this happened here with this guy, and then later this guy did similar things", Thats retarded because of course people do similar things when they want/get power, just by chance certain short term patterns are likely to reappear. HOWEVER, the statistical likelihood of such patterns being repeated over a LONG term in the same order approaches zero. Its like this: if you saw a paper on randomness in coin flips, and saw a few matching groups in the sequence of results like HHHTH or something, given a decent sample size, this is not surprising. But if you found that by simply dividing the sample into three consecutive sequences and putting them next to each other, you got HHTHHHHTTTTHTHTHHTTTHTHHTHHTTHTHHHTHTTTH three times in a row (plus or minus some Hs or Ts) AND THAT'S IT, you would go: Hey, I think this guy falsified his data (and chucked in a few H/T just to make it less obvious)!.


Now I have a very important point to make here: the truth of a statement is independant to the consequence of that statement. EG Bees fly. its a easily verifiable fact, you can see it in a garden all the time. Thus it doesn't matter that for a very long time we could not explain how they could fly using our equations for flight, given wing size to weight issues, THEY DID IT ANYWAY.

in a similar way, many conspiracy issues are confused by not realizing the above:
EXAMPLES

"wtc7 couldnt have been imploded, how could they have got the explosives in, how many people would it have taken to cover it up"....ALL IRRELEVANT. The footage exists, it is a plainly obvious implosion (to me), therefore somehow someone did it. It is now a matter of finding out how/why, not if.

another example:

"warburg et al from jekyll island did not get the banking laws they wanted, the alternative bill got put in and it has provisions in the proposed structure to make it very difficult to control"... IRRELEVANT
- warburg and vanderclip, WHO WERE AT THE SECRET JEKYLL ISLAND MEET, both stated they got what they wanted:

Vanderclip:

"Our secret expedition to Jekyll Island was the occasion of the actual conception of what eventually became the Federal Reserve System. The essential points of the Aldrich Plan were all contained in the Federal Reserve Act as it was passed.""

Warburg:
"Well, it hasn’t got quite everything we want, but the lack can be adjusted later by administrative processes."

and it did what they wanted and what it was "supposed" to avoid: got america in a huge depression, got america in 10 trillion dollars debt, etc etc.

IN OTHER WORDS: It doesnt matter if we consider it unlikely that the fed structure could be controlled, because of implications regarding "people in on it" etc, IT IS CONTROLLED, just because we don't understand it doesn't make it any less true.

How this relates to this thread:

if evidence is shown proving some historical coverup/falsification (eg possibly the fomenko stuff, dont know yet), it is irrelevant to the truth of the issue how many people must be "in on it" or wrong etc, or even how it could be done (if) it is true, then SOMEHOW, it was done


(*)ok so they arent the only ones, but look up a history of the rothschilds for an example of what I mean



posted on Apr, 5 2008 @ 11:37 PM
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Originally posted by Skyfloating
What dissappeared in the black hole of the "dark middle age"?


In some respects it would seem that the people from the 3rd up to around the 14th-15th Century were more ignorant than people before that.

They suddenly thought the earth was flat...although the ancient greeks knew that the earth was round.

They said Columbus discovered america...although there were already people there when they arrived. Although the Vikings and possibly even the Chinese had been there before that.

They had religious crusades that burnt scripts rather than treasuring them.

It would seem that we owe a lot of the "unknowns" surrounding ancient history to the stupidity in the "dark ages".

It would also seem that we experienced a cyclical decline during that time rather than movement upwards. Egypt had fallen, Greece had fallen, Rome had fallen...

...clearly showing a devolution rather than progress.

The point? Maybe evolution/history IS cyclic rather than linear.






Also this goes towards my thoughts on the fomenko stuff: just because our known history is falsified, doesnt mean that the falsifiers didnt overlay their fake histories over vaguely known real periods, EG:

lets imagine dark ages destroy most knowledge of hebrew, egyption, greek, roman etc empires. (more than we thought)
A Church group (I'm going to assume jesuits or something but of course I dont really have any idea) decides they want to make up a history to fill in the blanks (perhaps hide some of their own less than ideal history) and support their ideals, so they take vaguely known knowledge of there being egyptians/greeks/romans/hebrews at roughly X points in time, and make up a history for one group, then copy rename and rejiggle that history to cover the others.

I have no idea if fomenko et al considered this or not.

what this leaves us with: egyptians, greeks, romans etc DID exist roughly where/when we thought they did, but most of the specifics of rulers, and likely statistics on empire population, army size etc, we think we know, could be false.

just a thought



posted on Apr, 5 2008 @ 11:49 PM
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Originally posted by Byrd
They don't advertise fiction.

I don't consider this fiction, it may not be true (and like you, I find it hard to believe it is), but it is intended as a real hypothesis to explain anomalous findings by a team of respected Russian mathematicians (and historians?). As such it is not different to any other new hypothesis put out about any issue, and should hardly be considered "fiction".... (unless you can prove it wrong, in which case, claim your 10k(*))

(*)I am not using this as a evidence of this being right, just making a joke, who knows what rules or requirements are required for said proof, and absence of proof is not proof of absence.

[edit on 5-4-2008 by diablomonic]



posted on Apr, 6 2008 @ 12:27 AM
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An interesting corollary to my statement re truth and consequences is that even if we prove something is true, we may not understand what it is we have proven: eg
maybe we were also right about bees being unable to fly purely with their wings, maybe they were actually anti gravity powered alien spy drones?????? heheh. (this is where Occam's razor comes in, but it doesn't prove anything either, just suggests most logical thing to believe)

IE:

just because we prove historical timelines could not have arisen by chance, does not prove they did not occur: perhaps the Illuminati guided history to match some weird numerological time line they had. Perhaps God guided the destinies of all civilizations to some templated plan he had made. Perhaps we are all AI characters in a sim city like video game being played that the programmers of scripted the important game play changing elements (history) in, but let the unimportant characters act more freely? perhaps history really IS cyclical on a fine grained statistically impossible level?

all these are extremely unlikely to me, to say the least(although many others might consider the god one plausable), but who am I to say they definitely aren't true? (a slightly more plausable example is below)

If we have two apparently proven things, and they seem to conflict, the options are:
- we are mistaken about one (or both) of them being proven
- we are mistaken about them conflicting


eg lets imagine Fomenko is right that historical timeline similarities could not have arisen through chance, and that byrd/hanslune can also demonstrate some proven examples of, say, classical Greek artifacts dated conclusively (*) to the times we expect them to be.

like I suggested, perhaps they dont actually conflict. Just because some later Greek king falsified the earlier history of the greek empire to "prove" he descended from Hercules or something, doesn't mean there wasn't a Greek empire. Just because he did it by taking (say) Hebrew history and renaming everyone with Greek names etc, doesn't mean Hebrew history was wrong. Just because various people figured this out and did the same for roman and Egyptian etc etc.... you get my point?

(*) keeping in mind any concerns Fomenko et al have with dating methods



posted on Apr, 6 2008 @ 08:21 PM
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bankers(*) organise wars to create debt/consolidate control. War is over, they live off the debt and organise themselves using their new found power, then once they have it all sorted, they start another war, wash rinse repeat.


Bankers huh? Then why the continual war within Islamic countries which effectively had no banking nor any usuary? Many cultures without banking are quite violent and have cyclical warfare too.

If you are interested in Fed stuff I would recommend you post your ideas on that at JREF conspirary board with an attention to a poster named "Greenspan", he and several others are quite knowledgeable on that subject.



posted on Apr, 6 2008 @ 08:40 PM
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Originally posted by ZeroKnowledge
i admit that i was for a certain time a fan of one of his predecessors, Velikovskiy.


Ah a Velikovoskian! Zeroknowledge I have a request and favor to ask of you then. I'll send you an email explaning if you response to this message.



posted on Apr, 7 2008 @ 03:33 AM
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reply to post by Hanslune
 


damn it, made up a nice in depth reply to this and my computer deleted it.

re "bankers" well, ok thats simplifying it a 'bit'.

current conflicts (including those in the muslim world) > 90% controlled and deliberately set up IMO.

older stuff (earlier than ~200 years ago)
a lot less controlled (at least by the current group), especially in non European influenced areas.

Re JREF: already been there, done that and was not impressed (although this is a while ago, I'll check it out again at some stage). Just because a lot of people on a forum THINK they are right and agree with each other, does not mean they won the argument... (this also applies to conspiracy forums I have been to of course)

Re the FED: was it you hans that posted that 'debunking' of myths page when I mentioned JFK/FED? I'm in the process of refuting the entire list of 'myths' at the moment, suffice it to say many (not all) of those "myths" are in fact facts, although from a preliminary look, interestingly, the JFK one might be (a myth), haven't got up to it yet. Thanks for posting it though, I'm always looking for truth not just reinforcement for my current beliefs, and researching this I've already learned a lot more about this issue.



posted on Apr, 7 2008 @ 10:13 AM
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reply to post by Hanslune
 


The very concept "conspiracy-theory" originates from the idea that those who win wars and hord power "write history" to their own advantage and hord power.

There is a theory stating that "real knowledge" is only passed on from elite-circle to elite-circle while the asses of masses are kept in the dark.

Thats basically it. This one single-concept either trashes much of known history, or, if false, trashes much of known conspiracy-theory.



posted on Apr, 7 2008 @ 10:44 AM
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reply to post by Hanslune
 

Well you can ask,no problem. However i do not think that he was more on spot then "traditional" historians. He was heavily improvising and twisting facts his way, and his astronomical base is lacking, as far as i can understand.
As i noted, i WAS fan.



posted on Apr, 7 2008 @ 02:13 PM
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reply to post by ZeroKnowledge
 


Howdy Zeroknowledge

Ah a former fan! There is a poster who hangs out at a dead board who is a true V and S believer, very knowledgeable. Only believers can post on that board and I was looking for someone to invite him here to ATS.

The board is Zecharia.Sitchin.com

www.zechariasitchin.com...

The posters name is Mr. P, actually there are several other die hards there that might want to post here also. If anyone has access to that board send the invite by personal message as a posting will be deleted.

Thanks



posted on Apr, 7 2008 @ 02:18 PM
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Originally posted by Skyfloating
reply to post by Hanslune
 


The very concept "conspiracy-theory" originates from the idea that those who win wars and hord power "write history" to their own advantage and hord power.

There is a theory stating that "real knowledge" is only passed on from elite-circle to elite-circle while the asses of masses are kept in the dark.

Thats basically it. This one single-concept either trashes much of known history, or, if false, trashes much of known conspiracy-theory.


Howdy SF

Its not a black white event, there is some conspiracy in the world of archaeology going on right now.

Who are these elites Skyfloating?



posted on Apr, 7 2008 @ 03:36 PM
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reply to post by Hanslune
 


I dont know who those elites are. Im not even sure my reasoning is correct. But I keep in consideration the possibility of power being accumulated from behind-the-scenes, a power which relies on mis-information of the masses.

Which conspiracies in archaeology are you aware of?



posted on Apr, 7 2008 @ 09:06 PM
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Originally posted by Skyfloating
reply to post by Hanslune
 


I dont know who those elites are. Im not even sure my reasoning is correct. But I keep in consideration the possibility of power being accumulated from behind-the-scenes, a power which relies on mis-information of the masses.

Which conspiracies in archaeology are you aware of?


I'm glad you don't know Skyfloating - I'd hate to see you disappear LOL

Hmmmm as many famous and powerful people are assisted 24 hours a day by a small army of assistants - isn't it odd that no one notices who these elites are - there coming and goings? I also find it amusing that no one can agree on who they are or who the boss is.

[Humor mode on: phone call to the President of the US]

Hello this is President

This is Mr X. of Y [organization]

Who?

This is Mr. X of Y [organization]

Who?

Didn't Z tell you about me?

Nope

Damn!

[/humor mode off]

One of most imortant aspect of power is being known to have power - if you are not known - guess what?

Conspiracies in today's and yesterday's archaeology:

Japanese not allowing x-ing the tombs of the first emperors [probably show they came from Korea]

Osmanie scamming the world with his "pyramids"

Certain groups of LDS trying to prove the American Indians are Jewish

Communists trying to prove that all early social organizations were "socialistic".

Certain aspects of right wing Israeli archaeology trying to improve their claim on Palestine - and vice versa for Arab and the Palestinian archaeologists.

Native American activitist trying to shut down investigation into their ancestors.

The BJP trying to (im)prove Hindu rights over later Muslim invaders by "selective" archaeology.

Certain African nations attempting to ignore the fact that they themselves drove out the earlier inhabitants.



posted on Apr, 8 2008 @ 02:16 AM
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Originally posted by Hanslune

Hmmmm as many famous and powerful people are assisted 24 hours a day by a small army of assistants - isn't it odd that no one notices who these elites are - there coming and goings?

not at all. Like I said, most people covering up info don't even realise they are doing it. Just following procedures and trusting what they have been taught. It's only when influential/trusted people actually start thinking truly for themselves (very rare thing to happen spontaneously) and notice something out of the norm that anybody has to step in and manage things, and I would imagine that would normally done by Illuminati person X, who noticed possible problem person Y, calls influential person Z who knows or is respected by Y and gets Z to have a talk with Y. In this case, anyone observing would see nothing out of the ordinary (so an archeology professor came to talk to another archaeologist about a find/paper, whats suspicious about that? ) and person Z does not have to be in on it either, just well brainwashed.


I also find it amusing that no one can agree on who they are or who the boss is.

wouldnt be much of a secret power if we could, would it. Its quite simple to hide a conspiracy from sheeple, simply create another similar conspiracy with debunkable/unpalatable parts and real parts, debunk the fake parts and sheeple assume the rest is false too. (possible (and I mean that, maybe these are true, I just dont think so) examples: 9/11 no planers, conspiracies involving jews ruling the world, icke lizard people)



[Humor mode on: phone call to the President of the US]
Hello this is President
This is Mr X. of Y [organization]
Who?
This is Mr. X of Y [organization]
Who?
Didn't Z tell you about me?
Nope
Damn!
[/humor mode off]
One of most imortant aspect of power is being known to have power - if you are not known - guess what?



lets see:


"The world is governed by very different personages from what is imagined by those who are not behind the scenes."
Prime Minister Benjamin Disraeli of England (1844)


"All we need is the right major crisis and the nations will accept the New World Order."
David Rockefeller

"People yield themselves with perfect docility to our molding hands."
David Rockefeller

"The real truth of the matter is, as you and I know, that a financial element in the large centers has owned the government of the U.S. since the days of Andrew Jackson."
Franklin D. Roosevelt

"In politics, nothing happens by accident. If it happened, you can bet it was planned that way."
Franklin D. Roosevelt

"Give me control of a nation's money and I care not who makes the laws."
Mayer Amschel Rothschild

"The government, which was designed for the people, has got into the hands of the bosses and their employers, the special interests. An invisible empire has been set up above the forms of democracy."
Woodrow Wilson 28th President of the US

"Since I entered politics, I have chiefly had men's views confided to me privately. Some of the biggest men in the US, in the field of commerce and manufacture, are afraid of something. They know that there is a power somewhere so organized, so subtle, so watchful, so interlocked, so complete, so pervasive, that they better not speak above their breath when they speak in condemnation of it."
Woodrow Wilson

"The individual is handicapped by coming face to face with a conspiracy so monstrous he cannot believe it exists."
J. Edgar Hoover

"Behind the ostensible government sits enthroned an INvisible government owing NO allegiance and acknowledging NO responsibility to the people. To destroy this invisible government, to befoul this unholy alliance between corrupt business and corrupt politics is the first task of the statesmanship of today."
President Theodore Roosevelt, 1906



[edit on 8-4-2008 by diablomonic]



posted on Apr, 8 2008 @ 02:39 AM
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"Fifty men have run America, and that's a high figure."
Joseph Kennedy, US Ambassador (father of JFK & RFK)

"The real rulers in Washington are invisible & exercise their power from behind the scenes."
Justice Felix Frankfurter, U.S. Supreme Court.

"I am concerned for the security of our great nation; not so much because of any threat from without, but because of the insideous forces working from within."
General Douglas MacArthur

"We shall have World Government, whether or not we like it. The only question is whether World Government will be achieved by conquest or consent."
Statement made before U.S. Senate Feb. 7, 1950 by James Paul Warburg

"We're the tools &vassals of rich men behind the scenes. We're the jumping jacks; they pull the strings & we dance. Our talents, our possibilities & our lives are all the property of other men. We are intellectual prostitutes."
John Swinton (1829-1901) Former New York Times Editor-In-Chief



"The high office of President has been used to foment a plot to destroy the American's freedom,
and before I leave office I must inform the citizen of his plight."
John F. Kennedy, speaking at Columbia University, 10 days before his assassination



Enough people knowing whats going on for you yet Hanslune? Or should I find some more presidential quotes etc?

I would imagine those that get to the "top" (ie the public top, not the real top) either don't do much of real importance, or find out fairly quickly they aren't really in control. I don't know if you've heard of the comedian bill hicks, but I don't think I could put it better than him:


'I have this feeling man, 'cause you know, it's just a handful of people who run everything, you know ... that's true, it's provable. It's not ... I'm not a #ing conspiracy nut, it's provable. A handful, a very small elite, run and own these corporations, which include the mainstream media. I have this feeling that whoever is elected president, like Clinton was, no matter what you promise on the campaign trail - blah, blah, blah - when you win, you go into this smoke-filled room with the twelve industrialist capitalist scum-#s who got you in there. And you're in this smoky room, and this little film screen comes down ... and a big guy with a cigar goes, "Roll the film." And it's a shot of the Kennedy assassination from an angle you've never seen before ... that looks suspiciously like it's from the grassy knoll. And then the screen goes up and the lights come up, and they go to the new president, "Any questions?" "Er, just what my agenda is."' - Bill Hicks



posted on Apr, 8 2008 @ 02:46 AM
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Ah Diablomonic

I've seen these quote dozens of times before and guess what?



"Since I entered politics, I have chiefly had men's views confided to me privately. Some of the biggest men in the US, in the field of commerce and manufacture, are afraid of something. They know that there is a power somewhere so organized, so subtle, so watchful, so interlocked, so complete, so pervasive, that they better not speak above their breath when they speak in condemnation of it."


this quote is about MONOPOLIES and comes from his new freedom speech of 1913

New Freedom

"The individual is handicapped by coming face-to-face with a conspiracy so monstrous he cannot believe it exists. The American mind simply has not come to a realization of the evil which has been introduced into our midst. It rejects even the assumption that human creatures could espouse a philosophy which must ultimately destroy all that is good and decent."

- J. Edgar Hoover, FBI Director, speaking of COMMUNISM.[The Elks Magazine (August 1956)]

"Behind the ostensible government sits enthroned an INvisible government owing NO allegiance and acknowledging NO responsibility to the people. To destroy this invisible government, to befoul this unholy alliance between corrupt business and corrupt politics is the first task of the statesmanship of today."
President Theodore Roosevelt, 1906

This one is about CARTELS

"All we need is the right major crisis and the nations will accept the New World Order."
David Rockefeller


David Rockefeller speaking at the UN, Sept. 14, 1994. 109. Guess what New World Order he was talking about...its starts with a 'U'.

Etc

So Diablomonic you seem to just repeat what people tell you - why don't you go research some of those quotes yourself?



posted on Apr, 8 2008 @ 04:24 AM
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Originally posted by Hanslune
This thread is dedicated to looking at the concept/idea that some organization would try to "hide" an advanced human civilization or an alien influenced civilization.


I just so happened to have spent the past 2 years researching and writing a book on this very subject! My book, "The Atlantean Conspiracy" is available with hundreds of color photos for FREE download at:

www.linktoit.com/theatlanteanconspiracy

Hanslune and a couple others in this thread are Masons. So if they try to bash my book/research, all I ask is that you folks download my book first and decide for yourselves. Peace



posted on Apr, 8 2008 @ 11:46 AM
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Originally posted by Hanslune
Ah Diablomonic

this quote is about MONOPOLIES and comes from his new freedom speech of 1913

- J. Edgar Hoover, FBI Director, speaking of COMMUNISM.[The Elks Magazine (August 1956)]

This one is about CARTELS

its starts with a 'U'.

Etc

So Diablomonic you seem to just repeat what people tell you - why don't you go research some of those quotes yourself?



and you seem to be trying to belittle me. I wont stoop to the same level

When I see the words
"Some of the biggest men in the United States, in the field of commerce and manufacture... are afraid of something...so organized, so subtle, so watchful, so interlocked, so complete, so pervasive, that they had better not speak above their breath when they speak in condemnation of it."

and you imply that all he meant was 'just' your usual monopolies, I call bollocks. if the biggest men in the united states cant even talk about it, then its a little bit beyond a normal monopoly. Note he called it "A power". Not powers. He also described 'it' as organised, subtle, interlocked and COMPLETE, In other words, its a functional description of the business workings of the illuminati (at least I see it as such, and yes, I had a read of the speech). Just because he doesn't name it as such does not change its identity.

by the way, dont suppose you saw this doozie a few paragraphs later in the same speech:

....a small number of men who control the government to get favors from the government...by those favors to extend a network of control that will presently dominate every industry in the country

and quite a few other amazing tidbits being let out by this (IMO) possibly unknowing Illuminati front man.



posted on Apr, 8 2008 @ 11:49 AM
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By the way, I'm sure you are aware that, according to Illuminati researchers, the UN was brought in by them to be the starting point for a world government. SO you telling me rocker feller was talking about the UN, does not change my opinion of what he meant in the slightest.



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