New Testament Documents - are they Reliable?

reply to post by autowrench

Is there anything wrong with figuring out the age of the earth this way? No. There is nothing to indicate the genealogies are incomplete. There is nothing to indicate God left anything out. There is nothing in the Bible that indicates in any way that the world is much older than 6,000 years old.

It just goes to show you can find anything you like on the 'net to "back up" a statement. The above statement is born of ignorance, plain and simple. Serious Bible students of all persuasions know full well that is patently false.

That some genealogies in the Bible omit some generations is demonstrable (compare Mt. 1:1 with 1:2-17). For instance, the list of Aaron's descendants in Ezr. 7:1-5 omits six names which are given in 1 Ch. 6:3-14. This is readily understandable from the formulae, for the word ben could mean not only son but also 'grandson' and 'descendant', and in like manner it is probable that the verb yālad could mean not only 'bear' in the immediate physical sense but also 'become the ancestor of' (the noun yeled from this verb has the meaning of descendent in Is. 29:23)...

...There is thus no reason to suppose that all the genealogies in the Bible purport to be complete, since their purpose was more the establishment of descent from some particular ancestor or ancestors, a purpose unaffected by the omission of names, than the reckoning of exact chronologies.

New Bible Dictionary, IVP, Organizing Editor JD Douglas MA, BD, STM, PhD

(As a side note one of the consulting editors for this major volume is listed as FF Bruce, MA, DD, FBA, Emeritus Rylands Professor of Biblical Criticism and Exegesis, University of Manchester, who happens to be the author of the very book upon which this thread is based.)

reply to post by GafferUK1981

I know that there are scientists who believe in god and the thing they all have in common is that they were indoctrinated as children.

How can you make such a sweeping statement?

I count hospital consultants, doctors, PhD and research scientists, a research mathemetician, lawyers, etc., among my personal friends plus a world-renowned professor of archeology, a not-world renowned professor of archeology, a top-level engineer, etc., etc among my acquaintances. All of them share a common faith in God and the reliability of the Old and New Testaments. All came became convinced through personal study of the evidence, not indoctrination. Of the scores of others I am acquainted with who share this conviction none do so out of unthinking mental ascent. In fact no-one becomes a serious disciple of Christ without deep personal conviction.

There are, surely, those who maintain a general belief in God without such strong convictions. But they tend to be those who have least studied the Bible! Added to which it would be unbalanced to regard your uncle as personifying typical scientists who believe in God.

I was raised a Christian but as I got older I decided that the stories in the bible were simply stories.

One thing they are not is 'simply stories'. The Bible was not meant to be read as a simple record of past events. It purposely avoids recording events, people and places not pertinent to its message. Its entire focus is the intervention of a being of unlimited knowledge, wisdom, power, and moral perfection, unfettered by time and space, into this world — and the restoration of a broken relationship of us human beings with himself. Until it has been read on that level it has never been read at all.

Why are you convinced Christianity is the true way, why not Islam or Judaism after all the three main religions all started with Judaism.

Good question. When time permits I'll come back to this, (perhaps before the end of the day).

Are you open-minded enough to reread the Bible, or perhaps the New Testament?

I am open minded but I'm not prepared to read the Bible again.

I am as sure that the Bible is nonsense as you are that it is reliable. I just don't buy it. It seems so obvious to me that the old testament is garbage and it baffles me that anyone can interpret it as the truth.

Here is an undeniable example. If god created the earth on the first day and the plants on the third day. Why did he wait until the fourth to create the sun? He then created us on the 6th day.

We know now from astronomy that the sun was created way before the earth and the earth formed over millenia afterwards. We also know that the earth has been here millions of years before we arrived. There were dinosaurs long before us too which were never mentioned simply because man did not know about them when man wrote the bible.

Please try convince me that god created everything in six days.

reply to post by pause4thought

I agree, I just posted that to keep the conversation going. I know that Earth is no doubt over 10 million years old, and that we, Humanity, are children compared to civilizations that were here on Earth before. I have went after the 6000 year old Earth theory many times, even in ATS.

reply to post by GafferUK1981


Gaffer, you are so full of questions! You ask questions that you are convinced have no answer, yet the answers are available straight from the Bible to anyone who reads it. They are the same questions that are in many people's minds. Those who have studied the Scriptures seriously have long since had them answered.

Here is an undeniable example. If god created the earth on the first day and the plants on the third day. Why did he wait until the fourth to create the sun?

Elementary. The passage you are referring to reveals several things, such as:

1) Light existed before the sun

2) The sun is not the only source of light capable of sustaining life

Though the Bible is a collection of books authored and collated over a vast swathe of human history, it nonetheless constitutes a complex whole. Consequently it is not until you are acquainted with the last book of the Bible that the second statement above receives specific clarification. There is no sun in Heaven, as the Lord God is Himself the source of its unimaginable radiance, by which all life is sustained.

This is yet another example of how those who dismiss the Bible, vaunting their own minds above its revelation, demonstrate their lack of understanding. It's not surprising: they assume they can approach it like any other book, and find it makes no sense. Not the highest professor, not the wisest sage can begin the journey until they acquire spiritual discernment. Only then can they begin to realise that even totally uneducated laymen in their myriads have acquired spiritual insight way ahead and beyond their own, having approached the Bible correctly.

Thus

Please try convince me that god created everything in six days... dinosaurs..., etc.

is a red herring. Both in terms of understanding the message of the Bible as a whole, and within the context of this discussion.

I am... sure that the Bible is nonsense

Quite.


And as to the question of 'Why Christianity is the true way', as you put it, it is indeed a good question, with a good answer. But I am not interested in theoreticals. Until an individual is prepared to listen to the message of the Bible with a humble heart it all remains in a foreign language. Once a seeker approaches it with the attitude of an acknowledgement of their own spiritual blindness they can start to benefit from it. Thereafter they find themselves on a path that will in due time reveal the answer to that key question with abundant clarity.

"Seek, and you will find."

reply to post by pause4thought


If I do not believe the Bible to be reliable, why would I accept what is written to be a correct answer for my question.

The only question I feel we need the answer to now is what started the big bang and I am certain the answer is not god did it as I said before that raises even more questions. In the past god did it has been the answer to numerous questions but science has proved that to be incorrect.

Let's state some facts, we know how stars are created in nebula's and we know that the planets around stars are created over the millenia after the stars creation from remnants of the star and also other debris entering the star system. That is a cast iron fact as we can observe this happening now we have the technology to look.

This undoubtedly proves that the sun was created before the earth, and therefore disproves the bible.

You can't call that a red herring just because it shows the bible to be incorrect. Far too many religious zealots omit the parts of their holy books as metaphorical and not to be taken literally when science shows them to be wrong. But they still chose to believe what little is left. I believe that if the bible was a source of imperial knowledge there would be no mistakes. The fact there is proved man wrote it and there was not a god to provide any knowledge.

reply to post by GafferUK1981

The only question I feel we need the answer to now is what started the big bang

You're not seriously trying to suggest that is the only question that needs an answer? Has it never occurred to you that within each human being there is an entire universe of mysteries? On the one hand we can soar to heights of poetic and artistic grandeur, on the other sink to depths of despair. On the one hand spend ourselves tirelessly to the benefit of others, on the other utilise every new scientific discovery to the benefit of the arms industry. Morally aware and conscious of the desperate needs of so many, yet wilfully self-seeking, even to the point of callousness. Disgusted at the shortcomings of others, yet unable to overcome the very same things within ourselves. No, 'what started the big bang' is not the only question that needs an answer.

The creation of nebulas and planets, etc., is really only a surrogate for the real questions of life: a convenient barbiturate in the face of human responsibility.

Far too many religious zealots omit the parts of their holy books as metaphorical and not to be taken literally

On the contrary, far too many readers assume the Bible to be a science textbook, failing to appreciate that when you misconstrue the genre you miss the point entirely — from beginning to end!

But it truly is convenient to cling to such a misconception. We are not naturally inclined to want to hear that we are morally responsible for our failings, and that we are fully answerable to One who does not share them, even if the essence of the message is one of immeasurable compassion!

This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil. For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed.

John 3:19-20

That is the natural state of every human heart, mine included. Blind to the Light, and preferring it to sight. And it is utterly self-defeating as we can only run for so long.

Many deride, even mock the Light, even till their dying breath, thinking they see the world more clearly than those who have basked in its revelation. Thinking they already see clearly they preclude themselves from the benefits of the Light, leaving its unfathomable blessings to those who admit their blindness, and make the Light the focal point of their existence, both here and in eternity.

For judgment I came into this world, so that those who do not see may see, and that those who see may become blind.

Jesus, in John 9:39

I am the Light of the world; he who follows Me will not walk in the darkness, but will have the Light of life.

Jesus, John 8:12

reply to post by pause4thought


You seem to be completely avoiding the fact that the Bible makes statements that we know to be untrue. The creation of the world is one such error. Other books such as the Koran also make errors, the Koran states that sperm is made in the backbone and we know that to be false.

Let's assume there is a god, if god created everything he would know how he did it so when he passed this information onto man as statements in the bible it would be perfectly true. But it isn't true, it's outdated thinking written down thousands of years ago by less intelligent people, we now have the ability to prove them wrong.

There is no way of getting around this, the bible contains many errors, there is no avoiding that.

I refuse to read a very old and outdated book that is littered with errors, there is nothing to learn. It would be like reading a 200 year old science book that has now been superceded in many ways. There's just no point.

I also refuse to believe this spiritual mumbo jumbo. You seem to forget that most of the atrocities in this world are committed by religious zealots against people who don't believe in the same god or do but not in the same way. Look at Northern Ireland, christianity has ruined it and split it into two. I am an atheist but I have morals, I know right from wrong, I don't need religion to teach me how to live. I live a good and honest life and I'm very happy and I intend to make the most of this life because this is the only life I will ever have.

Finally do you ever consider where god is now. It seems that 2000+ years ago god was everywhere, you couldn't walk down the street without bumping into him or seeing angels. Where is god now, if there was a god we arguably need him now more than ever but he is nowhere to be seen. So either god is dead or he just plainly doesn't exist, you know which one I believe.

Originally posted by GafferUK1981I live a good and honest life and I'm very happy and I intend to make the most of this life because this is the only life I will ever have.

Make the most of this life how? There are only two ways to live, live for yourself or live for others.

Every time you live for yourself, another person, animal, or any other creature suffers. Anything you buy, everytime you work for money, there are others blood in it. There's mountains of evidence to support it, you can see it if you indiscriminately travel the world, not just the nice vacation spots, talk to people, learn about the world system. Every inch of the world you know that was shaped by man is evil.

On the other hand, if you truly live for others, consider the welfare of others, the poorest, even the animals, creatures above your own. You will inevitably live the teachings of Jesus - this is not the mainstream Christianity / all other religions you know.

Only few goes this path because it's a very hard life. But it's a question of how would you like all creations to remember you after you die. Either you helped cause their suffering or you helped them in their suffering. There are your only choices, nothing in between.

reply to post by ahnggk


How would you suppose I live?

Would reading a book of nonsense really make much difference?

In theory I could live off the land, grow my own food and fuel. Provide for my family and have a decent existence without religion coming into it. Religion doesn't need to be shoehorned into life anymore. It is an outdated unrequired philosophy.

Yes I live for myself and those close to me. I know that some purchases can be detrimental to the environment but man can improve those conditions. If everyone stopped living and followed your example the human race would be frozen in the middle ages. We'd never develop, we've already grown out of the need for religion. I see no reason to go back.

reply to post by GafferUK1981

the absence of god a is a fact... I will never believe such a preposterous idea that there is a god... the ancient ideas of primitive and far less educated people than ourselves... I am sure that the Bible is nonsense... It seems so obvious to me that the old testament is garbage... I refuse to believe... god is dead or he just plainly doesn't exist...

You have illustrated all I have said concerning spiritual blindness with monumental aplomb.

there is nothing to learn

O how long the world has waited for one such as you!

I live a good life

No, you are a sinful man.

I live an honest life

No, your heart is deceitful, and desperately wicked.

I'm very happy

No, you are self-satisfied, and conceited.

I intend to make the most of this life because this is the only life I will ever have

'Eat, drink, and be merry, for tomorrow we die!'

We are very different people. Christ is my Lord and my God. He is my spiritual Light. I am a forgiven sinner. My heart's delight is now holiness. Christ has satisfied my thirst for truth, and I am blessed by His teaching daily. I intend to live for Christ in this life, and once its short course has run I will spend eternity in His kingdom.

All these riches are gifts from God. None of them I have earned. I therefore worship, adore and praise the God of Heaven, Father, Son and Holy Spirit, who always was, is now, and ever shall be.

You shall wane, and die. As for God's Word, which you so malign, it will be the means by which your life is assessed by Heaven. Each of us shall be humbled before the Almighty — whether by the Old and New Testament in this life, bringing repentance, faith, and forgiveness, or by the sight of Him whose eternal wisdom and power they reveal, bringing everlasting shame to some, and everlasting life to others.

Refusal to believe, and mockery are nothing new, nothing surprising. Blind eyes are incapable of perceiving light.

One thing is sure: I would not give anything in earth below or Heaven above to exchange places with those who blindly invest their all in this mortal realm, giving no heed to, even mocking, the Law by which they are to be judged and the means by which they might be forgiven, and healed.

Thank God He is patient and kind, even to such, not wishing that any should experience the consequences of their short-sightedness, preferring to give them life and breath even while they curse His name, in the Hope that they might return to the One who granted them life, and every good thing they will ever enjoy.

reply to post by pause4thought


You're assuming that I am incorrect and there is a god. You live your life by a very dubious book, you sacrifice yourself in this life so that if there is a heaven you will be rewarded.

I don't do not believe in god nor heaven or hell so when I die I will not go to heaven or hell I will merely cease to exist and I'm happy with that. I think you will also cease to exist and go nowhere either, the difference between you and I is that I won't have wasted my time reading the bible for nothing.

You clearly follow the bible strictly so may I ask you how many people you have murdered who do not believe in god or who work on a Sunday. God instructs his followers to kill so why don't you obey him.

reply to post by pause4thought


I hope that if you have children you don't push your misguided views upon them, I hope that you love them but do not indoctrinate them to believe the rubbish you believe before they are old enough to make their own judegement.

Believe whatever you want but don't think for a second that the next generation needs the crap that you are peddling.

reply to post by GafferUK1981

This undoubtedly proves that the sun was created before the earth, and therefore disproves the bible.

The Bible doesn't claim that the earth was made before the sun. The word "made" on the fourth creation day, in the original language, brings forth the idea of making suitable for a purpose.

There is no way of getting around this, the bible contains many errors, there is no avoiding that.

Leaving creation behind, please list some examples.

I am an atheist but I have morals, I know right from wrong, I don't need religion to teach me how to live.

What do you base your morality in?

I ask you how many people you have murdered who do not believe in god or who work on a Sunday. God instructs his followers to kill so why don't you obey him.

You'd do yourself a favor if you read some theology books. The Law was for a specific time and people and had a particular purpose. Christians aren't that people and don't live in that time.

The Sabbath wasn't Sunday either.

reply to post by pause4thought

reply to post by octotom


I base my morality on what I believe to be right and wrong and also the law. I don't do to people what I wouldn't want to happen to me.

We don't need the bible as a moral guide as we have our own conscience. In fact if anything the bible is a poor moral guide as it gives instruction to kill people who don't believe in god. This is immoral.

The link to the circular bible picture is quite distressing. I prefer to have my own free will and curiosity rather than live by a book and take for granted that what is written is true when it certainly is not.

reply to post by GafferUK1981

I don't do to people what I wouldn't want to happen to me.

How Christian of you.

We don't need the bible as a moral guide as we have our own conscience.

But where does the conscience come from? What should we do when my conscience/morals don't agree with yours? How do we know where to draw the line?

In fact if anything the bible is a poor moral guide as it gives instruction to kill people who don't believe in god.

Again, that was for a certain time and place, as well as under circumstances that don't apply to the world today.

This is immoral.

According to you and your conscience, yes. But without grounding your morals in something other than yourself, morality becomes relative and such a statement can't be made.

...that what is written is true when it certainly is not.

Demonstrate how the Bible is false.