It looks like you're using an Ad Blocker.

Please white-list or disable AboveTopSecret.com in your ad-blocking tool.

Thank you.

 

Some features of ATS will be disabled while you continue to use an ad-blocker.

 

Big Oil before congress: If you take away our 18bn tax breaks, gas prices will go up.

page: 3
15
<< 1  2    4  5  6 >>

log in

join
share:

posted on Apr, 2 2008 @ 10:22 AM
link   

Originally posted by an0maly33
whattheory: if they're only making 8 cents per gallon then how did they ever get by 5 years ago when gas was 2 dollars cheaper? i'd like to see a source for that argument. i agree that the high prices are caused by "scares" that cause them to "offset cost" and they don't bother to bring prices back down when the situation has blown over. i think everyone will agree that the major spike started with Katrina. we had some refineries that were damaged and prices shot from something like 2.25 to 3.15 in one day. i remember being baffled. last i heard we were pretty much back to normal, but every once in a while you'll hear about "this area is having conflicts that are disrupting production" or "we MIGHT have a bad hurricane season". inflate on speculation of bad times and don't deflate when nothing happens. that's the process that has been going on lately.


They don't make 8 cents per gallon, but per dollar of sales. Like most any business, they're pegged to a profit margin. If their cost of goods sold undergoes a three-fold increase, so will their sales revenues, and their profits will also expand by a similar amount, if they maintain the same profit margin.

8% is 8%, whether its of $500 billion or $1.4 trillion. It does make the total profit figures look a lot different, however. The oil companies are hardly saints, but at the same time, they have not fundamentally altered their pricing structure.

The bigger 'bad guys' seem to be the oil exporters, who, in many cases, can produce a barrel of oil for a tenth of the cost of what they're currently selling it for on the open market.




posted on Apr, 2 2008 @ 10:25 AM
link   
good point. i've also heard that the inflation has a lot to do with investors essentially trading barrels of oil as if it were stock.

[edit on 2-4-2008 by an0maly33]



posted on Apr, 2 2008 @ 10:27 AM
link   
reply to post by DimensionalDetective
 


The exporters such as OPEC are the ones making a killing. At one time, the Saudis were pulling their oil out of the ground for $2-3 per barrel! That's probably not true now, but I'd guess that they're still producing it for no more than $10-20. So how much are they making when they turn around and sell it for $100 on the open market?

7 million barrels per day at about $80 bucks profit per...a little over half a billion dollars per day. And that's just the Saudis.



posted on Apr, 2 2008 @ 10:28 AM
link   
reply to post by vor78
 



Do you feel that they deserve an additional 18 billion in tax breaks? I don't think so.



posted on Apr, 2 2008 @ 10:32 AM
link   
reply to post by Karlhungis
 


Not in the slightest. I simply think that what's good for the goose is good for the gander, so to speak. Congress has little right to chastise the oil companies when the US government makes a ton of money off of them through various taxes, all of which ultimately hurt consumers either directly or indirectly.



posted on Apr, 2 2008 @ 10:34 AM
link   
reply to post by vor78
 


You make an excellent point. Why doesn't congress contribute 10% of collected taxes from gasoline and put it toward alternate energy research?



posted on Apr, 2 2008 @ 10:43 AM
link   
If it come down to the Sadie’s raking us over the coals, why don’t we triple the cost of replacement parts for all the military equipment that we have sold to them over the years.



posted on Apr, 2 2008 @ 10:44 AM
link   

Originally posted by defcon5
Funny I have never heard that before, I have known physicians that are paying close to 250K a year, especially high sue risk specialists such as pediatrician’s. There was talk a few years back that the doctors in my area were going to band together and refuse all service (beyond required emergency stabilization) to any attorney or their families, as high lawsuit risks. It must have been more real of a situation then a “red herring” considering that.


I may have been wrong about insurers themselves making that claim. It's been a few years since I'd read it, and I'm researching it again now. In the meantime, here's an item from 2004 about how while insurance premiums have gone up for doctors, the number and amounts of malpractice suits have actually reduced:

Medical Malpractice: Crisis or Sham?

And another, from Kentucky:

Malpractice Insurers Price-Gouging Doctors

And here's an article from 2005 about investigations into malpractice insurance price-gouging:

Challenge to the Medical Malpractice Insurance Industry

As I said, I may be wrong in quoting insurers themselves about it being a scam, and if so I apologize. However, I will continue to research. Certainly, there is evidence doctors are getting screwed--and it's not because of out-of-control lawsuits.



posted on Apr, 2 2008 @ 10:48 AM
link   
reply to post by The Nighthawk
 


Thanks I appreciate your research.

If you can find it, I would like to read it for sure.
As far as socialized medicine, I know that there is a lot of resistance to it in the medical field, though I don’t know why. I’ll do some research on that myself, though I think it comes down to a decrease in the level of care that it would be possible to provide and still remain in business.



posted on Apr, 2 2008 @ 10:56 AM
link   

Originally posted by vor78
reply to post by Karlhungis
 


Not in the slightest. I simply think that what's good for the goose is good for the gander, so to speak. Congress has little right to chastise the oil companies when the US government makes a ton of money off of them through various taxes, all of which ultimately hurt consumers either directly or indirectly.


But that tax money is used to build and maintain roads and other needed services.

People need to get over this anti-tax crap. Taxes are your patriotic duty. Without them you would have no roads, no police, no fire department, no education at all, nothing. Taxes are the price citizens pay for living in a civilized society. If you want to remove yourself from society, live in the woods and hunt for all your food and build everything with your own two hands that's fine and dandy. But for the rest of us who live in towns and cities and communities, and want to, taxes are an absolute necessity. Now, if you want to discuss the inequities of who gets taxed for how much and why, and the enormous breaks corporations get and do not need (corporate welfare is many times larger than welfare for the poor in this country), and what those tax dollars aren't being spent on but should be, that's a different subject and certainly a worthy topic. But if you think folks like Ron Paul can save this country by eliminating taxes altogether you need to think again. Libertarian ideals sound great for those of us who think we're paying too much, or want legalized prostitution or drugs, but the reality is it would lead to a situation exactly like Victorian England: 99.9% in poverty while the rich get fatter. It's happening even today, not quite that bad yet--but it wouldn't be even this bad if Reagan hadn't dregulated everything and rolled back the New Deal.

Fact: If you want a strong middle class and the average American to be prosperous, you have to regulate business heavily, and you have to have a progressive tax system that makes the rich pay their fair share. Histroy proves it. Libertarians and Neo-Cons are trying to re-write that history.



posted on Apr, 2 2008 @ 11:06 AM
link   
What really gets me is that "Big Oil" claims that this is a supply and demand issue; a free market economy.

There is no free market economy when it comes to oil!!!

It’s a 4- fold collusion effort:

1) If anyone thinks it is a free market economy, go try to become an oil company. You can’t! It’s the only business that you cannot get into anymore. It’s a TRUE monopoly!

2) The number of refineries (after Katrina) is very low for our demand in this country and as far as I am know no one is making any more (I could be wrong here, anyone?)

3) Futures investors used the Iraq war, tensions with Iran to exploit our pocket book. Sure, China and India are taking a larger share of the market, but that does not cause what is happening now.

4) Crude supply from OPEC: Don’t even get me started with these guys; they are in collusion with the US Oil Companies.

Here is the fifth and probably the main underlying reason for price hikes:

5) I believe that the prices are being forced higher because people and the public are looking for alternative energy, and Big Oil is getting scared. There is a lot of technology out there right now that could completely get us off of fossil fuels, if we all invest in it. The problem is getting with the right guys and making sure that they don’t get squashed by Big Oil and our inept congress. Is Big Oil investing in alternative fuels??? Sure, investing that they can prolong this as long as possible. They want to make as much record profits as possible before the alt. sources become widely available.

Out of all conspiracies this is our worst one, not only to our pocket books, and to the planet, but our security as well.

I wonder how many months of war funding could have drastically changed the alternative fuel/ power situation.



posted on Apr, 2 2008 @ 11:06 AM
link   

Originally posted by defcon5
reply to post by The Nighthawk
 


Thanks I appreciate your research.

If you can find it, I would like to read it for sure.
As far as socialized medicine, I know that there is a lot of resistance to it in the medical field, though I don’t know why. I’ll do some research on that myself, though I think it comes down to a decrease in the level of care that it would be possible to provide and still remain in business.


The biggest resistance to socialized health care is from the insurers, because as far as health is concerned they'd be out of business (not like there isn't plenty of other stuff to insure; they'd still profit handsomely from auto, home, etc.)

And as far as level of care/staying in business, there's a very simple idea Kucinich put forth (and part of why he's not the Dem candidate--big business hates him): Expand Medicare, fully funded, for all Americans. Let Medicare compete in the open market against the insurers. Medicare's efficiency overall is far greater than for-profit insurers. If you or I could just have full access to Medicare, and Medicare covered everything needed (unlike elective cosmetic surgery) then why would anyone pay out-of-pocket for insurance? Hospitals and doctors and other on-the-spot health care providers would largely be unaffected. It's the insurers that cause all the big problems in health care.

And for those who think it would be horribly inefficient and lead to millions not getting needed care, or not getting it in time, you have to realize that's exactly what's happening right now: HMOs and insurers already heavily control your quality of care, and with language even lawyers can't fully understand they greatly restrict what you actually get for your dollar.

Who would you rather have making your medical decisions: You and your doctor, without fear of how you'll afford it, or a bunch of suits looking at the bottom line? I know what my answer would be.



posted on Apr, 2 2008 @ 11:09 AM
link   
Do people not agree with my previous post?

I have always felt the best plan to help oil prices is to prove that we don't need it.

Even if it's just a bluff, pull the tax breaks and invest that money into alternative energies. 18bil is plenty to begin building more nuclear plants and solar panels.

Is it not both the demand and necessity of oil that drives the price up? If we drop both of those, the Oil companies would be scrambling to get customers back.



posted on Apr, 2 2008 @ 11:19 AM
link   

Originally posted by Sublime620
Is it not both the demand and necessity of oil that drives the price up? If we drop both of those, the Oil companies would be scrambling to get customers back.

So you want them to drop their profit margin to lower than it currently is of about 8 cents per gallon?



posted on Apr, 2 2008 @ 11:19 AM
link   
reply to post by Sublime620
 


That may or may not work. I think that there's a big misconception out there about the oil companies that they are terrified of alternative sources of energy. I'm not entirely convinced that's the case. I think its more likely that they would just reorganize and adapt so as to supply those products to consumers as well.

The reason that they haven't already done so is that it will indeed cost them money to make the switch, but make no mistake, they have the money to do it when the time comes.

[edit on 2-4-2008 by vor78]



posted on Apr, 2 2008 @ 11:21 AM
link   
reply to post by WhatTheory
 


They can do what they need to do to hit profit margins. I'm not worried about that.

I'm simply talking about us as a country growing independent from the necessity of oil. Prices would drop, and profit margins would balance out.



posted on Apr, 2 2008 @ 11:22 AM
link   

Originally posted by Sublime620
I'm simply talking about us as a country growing independent from the necessity of oil. Prices would drop, and profit margins would balance out.

I agree with you on that statement but punishing the oil companies is not the way to bring about the results you want.



posted on Apr, 2 2008 @ 11:25 AM
link   
reply to post by WhatTheory
 


Who's punishing them? Taking away tax breaks is not punishment, that is not rewarding.

By continuing to support the gas companies, we have sanctioning OPEC to continuing to price gouge. If anything, causing OPEC to drop prices to hit market equilibrium may be more beneficial to gas companies than tax breaks.



posted on Apr, 2 2008 @ 11:36 AM
link   

Originally posted by WhatTheory

Originally posted by Sublime620
I'm simply talking about us as a country growing independent from the necessity of oil. Prices would drop, and profit margins would balance out.

I agree with you on that statement but punishing the oil companies is not the way to bring about the results you want.


It's not punishment. It's removing an avenue by which they shirk their duty as Americans. I would be willing to let them keep the $18B tax breaks, IF and Only if they were really using that money to develop new fuel sources and infrastructure to get those sources to Americans. If they want the breaks there has to be something attached to it--and I'm not talking about something we'll see in twenty years. There has to be a tangible result in the here and now. With the amount these guys have gotten away with not paying, and all the money they claim to sink into research, we should have had hydrogen cars five years ago. Honda has developed systems that work perfectly and are self-sufficient--but they aren't getting the kind of funding or breaks they need to mass-produce and put it in the market.

I think there is a concerted effort to keep alternative fuels away from the public, because many of those fuels, such as hydrogen, are practically free. If some fatcat can't get even richer off it, they don't want it out there. That's why we don't have extensive levels of clean diesel, biodiesel, hydrogen, or electrics. The "right" people have to be making money from it or else it won't see the light of day.



posted on Apr, 2 2008 @ 11:39 AM
link   

Originally posted by The Nighthawk

People need to get over this anti-tax crap. Taxes are your patriotic duty. Without them you would have no roads, no police, no fire department, no education at all, nothing. Taxes are the price citizens pay for living in a civilized society.



I agree.




Fact: If you want a strong middle class and the average American to be prosperous, you have to regulate business heavily, and you have to have a progressive tax system that makes the rich pay their fair share. Histroy proves it. Libertarians and Neo-Cons are trying to re-write that history.


I agree to a certain extent. However, the definition of rich needs to be addressed here and it should NOT include medium managers and small business owners making $150k a year. Over $300K I would say qualifies as pretty well off. I know it also depends on a particular local economy, and the IRS does not care where you live. $150k in small town Indiana is very well off, and $150k 2 hours up the road in Chi-town is "Ok".

Be careful not to regulate all businesses too much. Over regulating hurts the small companies WAY more than the large ones, because of the required support staff to keep up with the paperwork.

Believe me when I say the more regulation, the more BS forms you need to fill out and the more time you spend answering to regulators and public workers that may or may not know what they are doing. Large companies can absorb this. Small companies cannot, and the less small companies out there the worse off it is for middle class America.

Now… as far as Big Oil goes, tax them like they should be. Let the price of oil go up, it will force us to invest in existing tech that will save us in the long run. Look at my previous statements regarding the collusion going on.



new topics

top topics



 
15
<< 1  2    4  5  6 >>

log in

join