Why, why, why?????

I was speaking with my father last night and it turns out he was watching a documentary on the Freemasons when he made a comment.... "I don't see why all these people are complaining about the Masons, it reminds me of my old Elk Lodge, in a way." That piqued my curiosity so I questioned him further and had him explain in more detail why it seemed similiar to him.

After hearing the comparisons I was left wondering, why are the majority of the secret society threads on ATS geared mainly at the Masons? Why don't I see more people jumping all over the Benevolent Protective Order of Elks? (B.P.O.E., which the old man is fond of saying means "Best People on Earth").

Why is it I usually hear "Masons are evil, they swear oaths, the Bible says you can't do that", "Masons are evil, they meet in secret! Why isn't anyone allowed into their meetings? They must be worshipping Satan or trying to take over the world!", "Why are the degrees so secret? What are Masons hiding?!" "Why are so many presidents, businessmen, actors all Masons!", and "Why do they have "secret" signs and symbols?"

From my conversation with my father the Elks had some of the following in common:

- Candidates must be 21 and profess a belief in God. Like the Masons (though I forgot to ask if they meant specifically the Christian concept of God or just "a supreme being")

- Candidates must petition the lodge and be vouched for by 2 members. Like the Masons.

- Candidate's petition is read in lodge and voted upon. Like the Masons.

- The voting method is a ballot box with white and black balls. Like the Masons.

- Elks lodge meetings are members only, no public allowed. Like the Masons

- Initiations are members only and "secret", no public. Like the Masons.

- Elks take an oath on the "Sacred Book of Law" (Bible on altar). Like the Masons VSL.

- Elks have their own signs and symbols (11th Hour, Elk's horns, Hailing Sign). Masons have their own signs and symbols too.

- Several presidents, politicians, and businessmen have been Elks.

Also, though my old man wouldn't tell me about the initiation, I was able to find it online and was surprised to find many similarities between the Elk's initiation and the Mason's EA degree (To be fair, there were MANY differences too). In fact, in some places if you replaced the word "Elk" with "Mason" you'd think they were almost the same. Out of respect for both groups, I won't personally post their rituals but you can google the Elk's if you want to compare.

So why no public outcry against the Elk's? They share all the same main things Masons get jumped on for ("Secrecy", Oaths, high profile members, etc..). Also, why not the Knights of Columbus? They also are members only, meet in private, "secret" initiation etc etc....

I guess the point of my long rant is, am I missing something? Is there something I am overlooking that seprates the groups? Is it just because Freemasonry is older, and I assume, the more popular of the fraternities, therefore an easier target? Or have I just not been around ATS long enough and this horse has been thoroughly beaten to death?

What's your point of view on why Masons are the more popular target?

Also, anyone know if whoever founded the Elks was perhaps a Mason? Alot of similarities so it makes me think it is a possibility. My search only found that it was founded by a theatrical troupe... thanks!

Oh, also, I am not a Mason or an Elk and have nothing against either group.

People in general are ignorant about what and who the Masons are. It's rather humorous given that there is a wealth of legitimate information out there on them. Yet, most people would rather read the drivel in the anti-masonic rags than to actually read works by Masons to find out what they really believe.

I tend to agree, but what has drawn them specifically to the Masons when there seems to be several other groups who share some very similar traits? Why the uproar over this 1 Fraternal group when you could just substitue the word "Mason" for "Elk" or "KofC" and it would fit the anti's arguement?

reply to post by AdamL


Welcome to the ATS Secret Societies Forum! It boggles the mind!

Seriously, if you figure out the answer to that then you will have done better than I.

I dunno, there's something about the symbolism that gets people's panties in a bunch, I reckon. Triangles and All-Seeing-Eyes and whatnot. Everyone says the pyramid is Masonic but it's not. I've pretty much seen it all in my 4 years here and I still don't have an answer to your question.

Though, it doesn't keep me up at night.

[edit on 4/1/08 by The Axeman]

Well good to know I'm not the only one who finds it mind boggling... I guess I wouldn't be racking my brains over it if the typical argument was "Fraternal/Secret Societies are evil because not open to public/oaths/symbolism" instead of always seeing "Masons are evil because of...blah blah blah"

While I don't personally don't see anything wrong with these groups, at least I'd see more logic in saying they are all evil instead of targeting just the one...


Just wanted to make sure I wasn't crazy and totally overlooking something..

It probably began with the anti-mason political party. As with any political smear campaign, firey rhetoric was getting thrown around quite alot.

During this period in time the masonic movement was probably at its prime in the United States. Anti-Masonic books started showing up accusing the masons of anti-christian behavior in order to slow the masonic movement. This sentiment slowly evolved into accusations of satanic devil worshiping.

With self-professed ties to the Knights Templar, the original heretical accusations of the catholic church and pope were revived. But this time the accusations were applied to the masonic order.

What alot of anti-masons do not realize is that the vatican has since exonerated the Knights Templar.

But alas it does not matter, the damage has already been done. What it really boils down to is fear of the unknown. The truth is hidden from those who are afraid.

Edit: added references.

[edit on 4/1/2008 by Choronzon]

reply to post by AdamL


Why? Thats always a good question, and leads you forward.

Round Table, David Millner Group, Order of St John, The German Marshall Fund of the United States, The China Fund, Inc., Fabian Society, Black Nobility, Mont Pelerin Society, Hellfire Club, the Masons.

Just pick up one of those and start digging! In my eyes its waste of time to look all of those, and try to study and research them deeply together, because when you write a picture from any of those to your head, you find more of similarities from all of those at the end.

When you know one, you find them all. If you look to all of those at same time, they make what they are made to do: You wont see the three from forest, and you lost your way in front of wide miss information.

There is many ways to become a Noble. But behind in structure, Order Of Cross, between those who have the right to give your titles in first place, there is only one who control that privilege.

Just digg your choose, and you will be lightened.

Originally posted by AdamL


I guess the point of my long rant is, am I missing something? Is there something I am overlooking that seprates the groups? Is it just because Freemasonry is older, and I assume, the more popular of the fraternities, therefore an easier target? Or have I just not been around ATS long enough and this horse has been thoroughly beaten to death?

I think you've hit the nail on the head. Masonry is the most widespread and famous so it gets all the attention, but it isn't much different than the other adult fraternities.

Also, anyone know if whoever founded the Elks was perhaps a Mason?

Yes, the founders of the elks were Masons. Originally, the Elks even wore aprons in the lodge, just like the Masons do. There are many other fraternal organizations out there that are similar in many ways to the Masons: the Knights of Pythias, Oddfellows, Woodmen of the World, Junior Order of Mechanics, to name just a few.

reply to post by Masonic Light


Thank you, I had a hunch but was having problems finding a a reliable source on weather or not the founders were in fact Masons.

Just a thought! I don't know of any Elk being ex-communicated by the Roman Catholic Chruch. When you have a power house like that talking bad about you, people take notice.