Civilization versus Islam: A win-win scenario.

Civilization versus Islam: A win-win scenario.

Many will be offended by the following ideas. This is not my intent.
I do not hate or wish harm to anyone or anything. It is my will to find a solution that can eliminate hate, suffering, and man’s inhumanity to man where everyone wins.

The Quran is very accommodating in regards to martyrdom, so I propose that all those who follow Islam take advantage of the immediate and exalted rewards promised by Allah to all who die as martyrs. Very little creativity is required to figure out a way by which all who follow Islam could in mass die as martyrs.

All civilized countries, nations, and peoples on the earth decry atrocities committed in the name of a God, religion or cult. All civilized people abhor the murder of innocent men, women, and children. All civilized people have abandoned the killing of others because of differences in philosophical or religious beliefs.

At present the followers of Islam have become the terrorists of the civilized world. Endless bombings, barbaric beheadings, female genital mutilation, honor killings, and the never ending murder of all who simply disagree, all in the name of Allah. Martyrdom is a means by which followers of Islam can do the will of Allah, obtain paradise, and at the same time eradicate the greatest threat to the world and mankind: the followers of Islam.

Verses from the Quran condoning martyrdom.

Surah 4:74

Therefore let those fight in the way of Allah, who sell this world’s life for the hereafter; and whoever fights in the way of Allah, then be he slain or be he victorious, We shall grant him a mighty reward.

Surah 9:111

Surely Allah has bought of the believers their persons and their property for this, that they shall have the garden; they fight in Allah’s way, so they slay and are slain; a promise which is binding on Him in the Taurat and the Injeel and the Quran; and who is more faithful to his covenant than Allah? Rejoice therefore in the pledge which you have made; and that is the mighty achievement.


[edit on 1-4-2008 by cybrseer]

reply to post by cybrseer


Yeah but there are a lot of good Muslim people as well. You are generalizing a whole population based on the actions of few people. It is like an Atheist bringing up the Spanish inquisition, or the witch hunt.

Geeezzzz.. the Muslims are a bunch of Camel Jockeys compared to the US Military; we are the greatest terrorists on the planet.

reply to post by cybrseer


Sorry but.......FYI Islam IS part of "civilisation"...so i really don't see how can you match it up to islam VS civilisation.

At present the followers of Islam have become the terrorists of the civilized world. Endless bombings, barbaric beheadings, female genital mutilation, honor killings, and the never ending murder of all who simply disagree, all in the name of Allah.

At present the American army and it's leaders have become the terrorists of the civilized world. Endless lies to start wars, barbaric invasions, , civilian killings, and the never ending suppression of all who simply disagree (you are with us or against us), all in the name of Capitalism , euh...Democracy.

See this works both ways...

[edit on 4/1/2008 by Cuhail]

The problem is when are you fighting for Allah. Just saying you are doesnt really mean you actually do.

reply to post by Shar_Chi


I would inform others that may read this blog that the quote you have attributed to me is not mine. I have not authorized anyone to speak on my behalf or alter my comments in any way. Please refrain from false representation when quoting cybrseer. I am happy to have a dialogue with any one on any subject and look forward to sharing ideas and observations.

Cybrseer

Originally posted by XyZeR
reply to post by cybrseer

 

Sorry but.......FYI Islam IS part of "civilisation"...so i really don't see how can you match it up to islam VS civilisation.

Let me clarify:

I am using the word "Civilization" in accordance with it's primary definition, which is;

an advanced state of human society, in which a high level of culture, science, industry, and government has been reached.

Islam is not a civilization. Islam is a religion.
Islam is not a part of civilization in the context that I am using.

I am pointing out that the attrocities committed by followers of Islam is barbaric. Historically barbaric tribes became civilized and thus joined civlilization. It is evident to all free thinking people on earth that the majority of the followers of Islam behave as barbaric tribes and have failed to join the civilized nations of the world.

At present the American army and it's leaders have become the terrorists of the civilized world. Endless lies to start wars, barbaric invasions, , civilian killings, and the never ending suppression of all who simply disagree (you are with us or against us), all in the name of Capitalism , euh...Democracy.

See this works both ways...

Although I disagree with your interpretation of the American Army and it's leaders, I can clearly see why many would believe as you have stated.

The war in Iraq or any other war that America may be involved in at this time is not the focus of my thread.

I am simply bringing to a point that if the followers of Islam seek paradise Allah has provided them with an instant means to achieve their goal. martyrdom.

If followers of Islam truely believe what they preach why would they choose to suffer any longer than they have to. My guess is that they have little intrest in going to paradise and are simply using their religion as a means to justify a personal agenda of conquoring, hate and world domination.

Originally posted by MajKarma
Geeezzzz.. the Muslims are a bunch of Camel Jockeys compared to the US Military; we are the greatest terrorists on the planet.

There is a world of difference between people who willingly and purposefully murder innocent men, women, and children versus those that accidently kill innocent men, women, and children in an attempt to save the innocent.

Originally posted by Equinox99
reply to post by cybrseer

 

Yeah but there are a lot of good Muslim people as well. You are generalizing a whole population based on the actions of few people. It is like an Atheist bringing up the Spanish inquisition, or the witch hunt.

I agree:
"there are a lot of good Muslim people as well".

I disagree:
that I am "generalizing a whole population based on the actions of a few people."

I believe just the opposite. The stereotype that pervades the followers of Islam as barbaric, hateful, and warmongering extremists is well earned and deserved.

The majority of the Quran preaches death to non believers.
The minority of the Quran preaches peace, love, and charity.

One of the problems with discussing Islam with western societies is as follows:

The word Muslim generally means one who follows Islam.
So the two seem inseparable, however, when a Muslim commits an offense that other Muslim's condem they say, "well he is not really a Muslim", or "he is not properly following Islam". The line becomes blurred because most Muslim societies are theocracies, where the laws are interpreted by the spiritual authorities. So if they are not really following Islam than are they no longer Muslim?




[edit on 1-4-2008 by cybrseer]

Originally posted by tomcat ha
The problem is when are you fighting for Allah. Just saying you are doesnt really mean you actually do.

Please clarify, I am uncertain of your meaning.

Originally posted by cybrseer
The word Muslim generally means one who follows Islam.
So the two seem inseparable, however, when a Muslim commits an offense that other Muslim's condem they say, "well he is not really a Muslim", or "he is not properly following Islam". The line becomes blurred because most Muslim societies are theocracies, where the laws are interpreted by the spiritual authorities. So if they are not really following Islam than are they no longer Muslim?

But see, what you mentioned in your original post (killing of innocents, killing because of difference in beliefs, honour killings, female genital mutilation, etc.), is not supported or condoned by Islam. So how can one say that it is the "muslimness" in the person that is at fault? Why not the age (I think you mentioned young adults/teenagers)? Or the situation (perceived oppression, injustice)? Or the hair colour (black)? Or the Choice in foods (roast lamb)?

BTW, you mentioned a 'solution', but weren't exactly clear about it. You said something about martyrdom?

[edit on 2-4-2008 by babloyi]

first of all, please excuse my English

* in order to understand the meaning of surah 4:74, you have to read from surah 4:70;

4:70 That is bounty from Allah, and Allah sufficeth as Knower.
4:71 O ye who believe! Take your precautions, then advance the proven ones, or advance all together.
4:72 Lo! among you there is he who loitereth; and if disaster overtook you, he would say: Allah hath been gracious unto me since I was not present with them.
4:73 And if a bounty from Allah befell you, he would surely cry, as if there had been no love between you and him: Oh, would that I had been with them, then should I have achieved a great success!
4:74 Let those fight in the way of Allah who sell the life of this world for the other. Whoso fighteth in the way of Allah, be he slain or be he victorious, on him We shall bestow a vast reward.

another thing, you need to know the reason this ayah was sent to the prophet Mohammad and to who this speech referring too.

i will tray to tell the story as clear as i can, so if there any Muslim or a person who is familiar with Islamic history, please support my writing.

back in the early days of Islam, when Mohammad and and his followers moved from makkah to madenah, the non believers of makkah decided to go through war with mohammed and his followers to eliminate Islam once and for all. the prepared there army and moved to madenah.

Allah told Mohammad as missioned in surah 4, some madenah people who pretended to be Muslims did not went to fight with Mohammad and stayed behind.

few Muslims were killed (14), the rest came back with war Ghunaimah (means what treasures the defeated enemy left behind) Allah referred to them as: Lo! among you there is he who loitereth; and if disaster overtook you, he would say: Allah hath been gracious unto me since I was not present with them.

after reading above, you may study 4:74 Let those fight in the way of Allah who sell the life of this world for the other. Whoso fighteth in the way of Allah, be he slain or be he victorious, on him We shall bestow a vast reward.
and understand it clearly, that you must seek way of Allah when fight and not for war Ghunaimah, this way you will be reworded.

this dose not apply to current day fightings because Islam already dominates over Arabia centuries ago, and the non believers refers to makkah people who worshiped stones. as for Christians and Jews the Quran refers to them as people of the book.

many people misunderstand the meaning of Quran including Muslims them selfs, and this is why we have as every other religion Denomination rightist and Leftist doctrine.

so please don't judge us all by the action of few.

Originally posted by ncbma many people misunderstand the meaning of Quran including Muslims them selfs, and this is why we have as every other religion Denomination rightist and Leftist doctrine.

so please don't judge us all by the action of few.

I appreciate your comments here. The original post was xenophobic clap-trap. It should never be forgotten that there is plenty in Christian and Jewish scripture that we would be loathe to have define us. Not to mention the atrocities that have been committed for the sakes of those religions.

Any time a Christian wants to feel smug about their faith, they oughta check out Rev. Fred Phelps.
www.godhatesfags.com...

reply to JohnnyCanuck

The original post was xenophobic clap-trap. It should never be forgotten that there is plenty in Christian and Jewish scripture that we would be loathe to have define us. Not to mention the atrocities that have been committed for the sakes of those religions.

Any time a Christian wants to feel smug about their faith, they oughta check out Rev. Fred Phelps.
www.godhatesfags.com...

Nothing could be farther from the truth where I (cybrseer) am concerned than your statement "The original post was xenophobic clap-trap."

Xenophobic is defined as follows:
an unreasonabel fear or hatred of foreigners or strangers or of that which is foreign or strange.

I have no fear or hatred of foreigners or strangers or of that which is foreign or strange. This includes Muslims and/or followers of Islam, however, I can see why someone could get that impression by what I posted as many Xenophobes use similar rhetoric.

It may be advantageous for me to disclose the following.

I am agnostic. I hold equally in contempt the horrendous atrocities that have been committed by the Catholic Church, various Protestant religions and cults since the beginning of mankinds recorded history. I am well versed (pardon the pun) in most Christian theologies and philosophies. I look forward to starting many threads exposing the sick and insidious realities which form the foundations of most of the worlds religions and spiritual beliefs.

I chose to start with my observations on Islam due to the extraordinary amount of media coverage that has been given them recently.







[edit on 2-4-2008 by cybrseer]

reply to babloyi

But see, what you mentioned in your original post (killing of innocents, killing because of difference in beliefs, honour killings, female genital mutilation, etc.), is not supported or condoned by Islam. So how can one say that it is the "muslimness" in the person that is at fault? Why not the age (I think you mentioned young adults/teenagers)? Or the situation (perceived oppression, injustice)? Or the hair colour (black)? Or the Choice in foods (roast lamb)?

Killing of innoccents, honour killings, and female genital mutilation is not supported in the Quran. It is supported by a great many who claim to be Muslims or who claim to follow Islam.

Killing because of differences in beliefs seems to be at the very core of the Quran, at least the versions I own and have read cover to cover many times.

BTW, you mentioned a 'solution', but weren't exactly clear about it. You said something about martyrdom?

The solution is for all followers of Islam to martyr themselves, thus instantly achieving an exalted position in paradise.

Is it not the goal of every follower of Islam to obtain paradise?

Allah clearly proclaims in the Quran the benefits of martyrdom.

Why would you spend one second longer on this vile planet when you have a instant ticket to paradise? Unless you really do not believe in what you profess to believe in.

It would be a misinterpretation for anyone to construe that I fault "muslimness" for the atrocities which they commit in the name of Islam.





[edit on 2-4-2008 by cybrseer]

reply to post by ncbma

so please don't judge us all by the action of few.

Thank you for your well enlightened post.

I do not perceive terrorist actions committed by followers of Islam as the actions of a few. I see them as a consortium comprising the majority of the followers of Islam. When you see over 150,000 people in the streets of Lebanon chanting death to Israel, this strongly suggest where their sympathies and support lies. It is disingenuous or nieve to suggest that these 150,000 are not culpable in the terrorist activities in which they openly praise. The world has witnessed this same level of support from nations around the globe where the predominant population consists of followers of Islam. So to say "please don't judge us all by the action of few" is absurd.

When the streets of Lebanon, Gaza, the West Bank, Jordan, Syria, Egypt, Iran, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Indonesia, etc.... are filled with followers of Islam chanting against all forms of hate and terrorism, then terrorism by the followers of Islam becomes the actions of a few.

reply to post by cybrseer


all Muslims martyr them selves?
yeah Sure start a fight with a Muslim and threaten them with Death
and if they choose to fight back and you Kill them or they die Killing you then they are a Martyr.

a Martyr is defined as someone that Defends and dies for the Cause of Islam
when they are being prosicuted and stopped from practicing Islam in any shape or form. a martyr is also defined by someone that defends their Home land from anyone. even when US marines serve their country and die they are Heros to their people.

a Martyr is someone not because they blindly Fight but because they do so because its right.

when a Man or woman kills innocent people and claims Martyrdem is BS.
as they are going against the Quran and what the prophet said (peace be apon him) Dont harm anyone if they havent dont any harm to you. it even goes on to say dont harm the crops (the food of those that have done no harm) and how killing one innocent person is killing all of man.

you have NO idea of a martyr except of that which is painted to you in the media. a Terrorist can never become a martr. a Insergent who just targets Military can be. but that line is closed from people in Combat to those that are Cuvilians.

you bring in Verses from the Quran and have done one thing which Will always destroy your position that you take. you pic and mix and dont show the whole picture of the verse and what it truely means.

i will post an example

www.islamic-shield.com...


Quran 2:191
Islam-critics usually apply “cut and choose” approach with regards to this verse. They only quote: “And slay them wherever ye catch them…” (2:191). However, let us be brave enough to read the whole passage in context from 2:190-195:

Fight in the cause of God those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for God loves not transgressors. And kill them wherever ye catch them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out; for persecution and oppression are worse than slaughter; but fight them not at the Sacred Mosque, unless they (first) fight you there; but if they fight you, kill them. Such is the reward of those who reject faith. But if they cease, God is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful. And fight them on until there is no more tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in God; but if they cease, let there be no hostility except to those who practice oppression. The prohibited month, for the prohibited month, and so for all things prohibited, there is the law of equality. If then any one transgresses the prohibition against you, transgress ye likewise against him. But fear (the punishment of) God, and know that God is with those who restrain themselves. And spend of your substance in the cause of Allah, and make not your own hands contribute to (your) destruction; but do good; for Allah loveth those who do good. (YUSUF ALI, Quran 2:190-195)

i suggest you read the points on this site

www.islamic-shield.com...

now to your Funny points

female genital mutilation

what does that have to to do with islam?
only place i heard this happening is africa and thats some cultral thing.

honor killings

nothing to do with Islam, no where in the Quran does it mention that and funny enough its Culture as this Occurs alot in India in sikh and hindu familes where they dont like what their Child Has done or is doing as they are dis honouring their family

Endless bombings

endless bombings? by whom the terrorists or insurgents that just attack Military? or US forces that do air raids and kill whole familes. or Israeli apaches and f-16s that bomb heavily populated neigbour hoods.

you want to bring in endless bombings hows about we bring in the fact that since 9/11 more Muslims have died at the hands of US forces then that of any terrorist attack.

and thats not even bringing in Israeli air strikes on gaza and west bank and the war on lebonen

barbaric beheadings

beheadings, last time i checked this was caried out in many other countries a while ago and isnt just a trend for terrorists.

all the actions you mentioned arent even soley isolated to Islam
but from what i can read in your Topic you havent got a single clue about my Faith.

i am a Muslim and if Required would die a Martyr and thats defending my family and if required Country and thats from people such as your self who would call on our deaths



[edit on 2-4-2008 by bodrul]

[edit on 2-4-2008 by bodrul]

reply to post by bodrul

you have NO idea of a martyr except of that which is painted to you in the media. a Terrorist can never become a martr. a Insergent who just targets Military can me. but that line is closed from people in Combat to those that are Cuvilians.

you bring in Verses from the Quran and have done one thing which Will always destroy your position that you take. you pic and mix and dont show the whole picture of the verse and what it truely means.

There seems to be a misunderstanding as to the point I was making. It is not possible to word each and every sentence in such a way that all who read will asertain my meaning. Allow me to clarify.

My idea of a martyr has nothing to do with "that which is painted to you in the media".

I never said or intended to suggest that a terrorist could become a martyr. According to my interpretation of the Quran a terrorist cannot become a martyr. I am defining 'Martyrdom' exactly as it is defined in the Quran.

What I said was
"Very little creativity is required to figure out a way by which all who follow Islam could in mass die as martyrs."

Why would any follower of Islam choose to spend one more second on this vile planet when Allah proclaims in the Quran an instant exalted place in paradise for all who die as martyrs.

As to your statement "you pic and mix and dont show the whole picture of the verse and what it truely means. "

The two verses I listed were only meant to show that the subject of martyrdom does in fact exist in the Quran. So that people who are not familiar with the Quran or Islam would have a reasonable belief that I was not just inventing a topic that did not exist.

I never intended to compose an exhaustive theological thesis in the study of martyrdom and the Quran.

As I was replying to your post I see you edited and added more. in quick response I would like to direct you to some of my other replies, ones prior to your post as they answer most of the statements you just added.

An example of one of my (cybrseer) quotes is as follows:

"I am agnostic. I hold equally in contempt the horrendous atrocities that have been committed by the Catholic Church, various Protestant religions and cults since the beginning of mankinds recorded history. I am well versed (pardon the pun) in most Christian theologies and philosophies. I look forward to starting many threads exposing the sick and insidious realities which form the foundations of most of the worlds religions and spiritual beliefs.

I chose to start with my observations on Islam due to the extraordinary amount of media coverage that has been given them recently.


[edit on 2-4-2008 by cybrseer]

reply to post by cybrseer




you still dont get the concept of martyrdem do you?
Mass martyrdem which planet you living on.

from this view you sound like someone promoting Mass genocide of Muslims.


and please the Two verses mean jack all if you dont show the full Image and what they truely mean.

i wont waste my time on you as you have shown your true colours.
good day

edit:
i will add to to this since i cant be botherd to reply again
2 spell corrections and i have added more what a JOKE

[edit on 2-4-2008 by bodrul]