Have Christians Been Duped?

According to this, yet another story from about 350 BC that is identical to the story of Jesus!

source: groups.msn.com...

Soon after this Zorastrian/Babylonian takeover in about 580BC, The Babylonians were holding the Jews in captivity. The Jews were Henotheists at this time but became heavily influenced by the concept of one god of goodness and one god of evil.

In about 350BC Mithras was sent by the Father God down to Earth to confirm his contract with Man.

Mithras was born of a virgin by immaculate conception.
- He was born of Anahita, an immaculate virgin mother
Mithras was born in a stable.
We celebrate his birth on Dec 25th
Mithras was visited by wise men bearing gifts
Mithras had 12 disciples
He was called the Messiah
- Mithras was also the god of Darius, conqueror of Babylon, He was called "Messiah" or Christos by Jews during their Captivity.
Mithras made a Contract (or Covenant) with Man confirming an older contract with God
- The Persian word Mithras literally means "Contract"
Mithras celebrated a last supper with his disciples before his death
Mithras died to atone for the sins of man
Mithras was resurrected on a Sunday
Mithras ascended into Heaven to rejoin his Father
Mithras will return to pass judgment on mankind
- He was known as the judger of souls
On judgment day, the dead will arise and be judged by Mithras
Mithras will send sinners to Hell
Mithras will send the faithfull to Heaven
On judgment day there will be a final conflict between evil and good.
The forces of evil will be destroyed and the saved will live in paradise forever.
Mithras is part of a holy Trinity that took human form
Mithras is depicted as having a halo
Mithras followers drink wine and eat bread which represent his blood and flesh.
Mithras followers are baptised
That's a whole lot of remarkable coincidences all from hundreds of years before Jesus was born.

The Holy book of Zoroastrian was called the Avesta of Zarathustra (Zoraster is the Greek word for the Persian "Zarathustra"). The Jews were well aware of this book.

And I was called a plagiarizer in another thread!

This is fascintating stuff and I am going to go buy a copy of whatever book this story is in and share some of it. I am heading to Barnes & Noble. I will be back.

Now this IS a conspiracy!!

[edit on 1-4-2008 by chissler]

This is a logical fallacy - Ignoratio Elenchi. Just because a wall looks red, it doesn't mean it's painted in blood. Just because a car has 4 wheels, it doesn't mean it is a Ferrari.

This is ignoring all context and matching similar words in order to link similarities, but when in fact when compared in context, it is totally different. Read the whole context first before concluding as one looks at a car before concluding what car it is.

This is similar in fashion like Zeitgeist. I can bet with you this is a poorly researched work.

You might first want to run out and read a bit more about Mithras before throwing money at this book:

(from a museum, based on archaeology and texts)
museums.ncl.ac.uk...
Various stories survive to account for Mithras's birth. Often he is depicted springing from the living rock or from a tree; at Housesteads on Hadrian's Wall, however, there was a tradition that he was born from the Cosmic Egg. This sculpture shows Mithras bursting from the Egg whilst holding in his upraised hands the Sword of Truth and Torch of Light.

....

Mithras's early life was one of hardship and painful triumph. Finally,he captured the primaeval bull and, after dragging it back to his cave, killed the animal in order to release its life force for the benefit of humanity: from the bull's body grew useful plants and herbs, from its blood came the vine, and from its semen all useful animals.
(etc)

And Zarathustra replaced the Mithric religion:

Belief in the great power of Mithra was called in question by Zarathushtra or Zoroaster, the great prophet who worked mainly in Eastern Iran and who lived some time between 1000 and 600 B.C.
www.farvardyn.com...

more on the worship here:
en.wikipedia.org...

So, there's a conspiracy, but it's to lie to you about this. Christianity DID get a lot of its practices from the Greek mystery religions and until about 150 AD it was considered a Jewish sect. But all of the above stuff? No.

Run a search on Google books for "Clauss" and "mithras" and you'll get access (online) to much of the text of a book about Mithras that includes all the evidence about him.

who's to say they didn't get this story from the bible. the prophecy of a coming messiah born of a virgin that would redeem mankind was prophesied thousands of years before christ was born. satan is very good at making counterfits.



Keeper


Trimmed large quote

[edit on 31-3-2008 by dbates]

reply to post by Excitable_Boy


This is known as the 'Pagan Copycat Hypothesis' and has been proven to be pretty much nothing but a lie. It has been debunked beyond all doubt in the terms they use to create the correlations.

See these following links:

www.bringyou.to...
www.tektonics.org...
www.thedevineevidence.com...

A man by the name of Kersey Graves started the craze in the 19th century. Even though it has been thoroughly refuted, it's a hard lie to quench because pseudo-scholars repeat the same incorrect information over and over again.

Because it has been proven false, it is amazing how it keeps getting passed around and at this point the only term that can be applied is 'deceptive.'

Not referring to you, EB, but the 'scholars' who keep propagating this lie. It's even one of the issues I mentioned in the thread about atheists rewriting history. Not only are they using lies to accuse Jesus of being a myth, they are making blatantly false claims about other figures of ancient cultures.

Yes christians have been duped. Read Caesar's Messiah by Joseph Atwill which reveals christianity as a Roman conspiracy designed to passify the Jews and the Roman slave culture.

www.youtube.com...

Can a Mod change the name of this thread? I can't believe I misspelled Been with Deen and I didn't pick up on it in time to edit it!

But anyway....back to the topic. You have to at least admit that this story and others like it are curious! And even if some people have tried to make them more similar than they are, they still ARE similar.

It is a fact that Christianity was a way to control the masses and take power away from the Jews.

Originally posted by Lilitu
Yes christians have been duped. Read Caesar's Messiah by Joseph Atwill which reveals christianity as a Roman conspiracy designed to passify the Jews and the Roman slave culture.

Don't bother. It's hack scholarship. For a nice summation, check out:

www.tektonics.org...


Eric

Originally posted by EricD

Don't bother. It's hack scholarship. For a nice summation, check out:

www.tektonics.org...

That's a nice review from a bible school graduate. I would recommend more scholarly reviews however. Here is a review by J. Harold Ellens, PhD, Research Scholar, Department of Near Eastern Studies, University of Michigan.

www.insmkt.com...

Atwill's thesis is eminently worth exploring. Both for its new ideas and for its anti-establishmentarianism in the world of biblical studies, this book is likely to become a notable best seller.

of course christians have been duped, anyone who would worship a book full of stories with no proof of the content has been duped! I guess then I will start worshipping the venerable writings of DR SEUS, he makes about as much sense. And then I can justify killing untold millions of people and torturing whole civilizations on the Doctrine of one fish two fish red fish blue fish, and the masses will rise to me.

There was a huge blending of Germanic and Roman pagan rituals with Christian themes in Rome. One of these was the celebration of Christ's birthday on December 25th. The Romans had a long standing festival already on that day called "Dies Natalis Solis Invicti", which means "The birthday of the unconquered sun."

Anyway, there are a bunch of mythological figures who have their birthday's on December 25th, and it all has to do with early Astrology and solar cycles. The Winter Solstice usually occurs on 22nd, and marks the beginning of Winter in the Northern Hemisphere. Three days later on December 25th, the sun appears again to rise Northward throughout the seasons. Hence Dies Natalis Solis Invicti, and why they placed Jesus' birthday on that day.

Mithraism was a very large religion of Rome. Mithra was the Persian god of light and wisdom, and it came from Zoroastrian writings. Mithra become the god of the sun around 6 century BC, and was worshipped also by the Greeks, who identified him with Helios, their sun God. It was brought to Rome around 70 bc and it spready rapidly throughout Italy, so it was there even before Jesus was supposedly born.

Mithraism was the reason for the celebration on the 25th, and it was similar to Christianity in many many ways: humility, brotherly love, baptism, communion, shepherds, the adoption of Sundays as holy days, holy water and the belief in the immortality of the soul, judgement day, virgin birth, and resurrection.

It was different from Christianity in that woman were not allowed to take part in it's ceremonies, and it compromised with polytheism, which is why he is dipicted as having different forms. These similarities made it possible for easier conversions to the Christian cult.

Germanic Ssun worship (or more accurately nature/Father winter/undying spirit of the evergreen worship), the ancient ceremony of Yule, was also on December 25th, where they had 12 days of Christmas, burned a Yule log (for 12 days, hence the 12) and decorated evergreen trees. They also made wreaths and probably the first christmas cards, and even had mistletoe.

You should be able to find the above in any encyclopedia.

I found a link at at ship.edu by Dr. C. George Boeree.

One of the most popular religions of the Roman Empire, especially among Roman soldiers, was Mithraism. Its origins are Persian, and involves their ancient hierarchy of gods, as restructured by Zarathustra (c. 628-c. 551 bc) in the holy books called the Avestas.

The universe was seen as involved in an eternal fight between light and darkness, personified by Ahura-Mazda (good) vs. Ahriman (evil). This idea probably influenced Jews while they were in Babylon, which is when they adopted HaShatan -- Satan -- as the evil one!

Within the Persian pantheon, Mithra was “the judger of souls” and “the protector,” and was considered the representative of Ahura-Mazda on earth.

Ok...

Mithra, legend says, was incarnated into human form (as prophesized by Zarathustra) in 272 bc. He was born of a virgin, who was called the Mother of God. Mithra's birthday was celebrated December 25 and he was called “the light of the world.” After teaching for 36 years, he ascended into heaven in 208 bc.

Sounds about right.

There were many similarities with Christianity: Mithraists believed in heaven and hell, judgement and resurrection. They had baptism and communion of bread and wine. They believed in service to God and others.

In the Roman Empire, Mithra became associated with the sun, and was referred to as the Sol Invictus, or unconquerable sun. The first day of the week -- Sunday -- was devoted to prayer to him. Mithraism became the official religion of Rome for some 300 years. The early Christian church later adopted Sunday as their holy day, and December 25 as the birthday of Jesus.

Goes along with what I learned in Humanities and World Religions.

Mithra became the patron of soldiers. Soldiers in the Roman legions believed they should fight for the good, the light. They believed in self-discipline and chastity and brotherhood. Note that the custom of shaking hands comes from the Mithraic greeting of Roman soldiers.

It was operated like a secret society, with rites of passage in the form of physical challenges. Like in the gnostic sects (described below), there were seven grades, each protected by a planet.

Since Mithraism was restricted to men, the wives of the soldiers often belonged to clubs of Great Mother (Cybele) worshippers. One of the women’s rituals involved baptism in blood by having an animal- preferably a bull - slaughtered over the initiate in a pit below. This combined with the myth of Mithra killing the first living creature, a bull, and forming the world from the bull's body, and was adopted by the Mithraists as well.

I concur, herr doktar. They used lamb/sheep if they couldn't get their hands on a bull.

When Constantine converted to Christianity, he outlawed Mithraism. But a few Zoroastrians still exist today in India, and the Mithraic holidays were celebrated in Iran until the Ayatollah came into power. And, of course, Mithraism survives more subtly in various European -- even Christian -- traditions.

Yep. Who knows if they borrowed the elements. They were all actually pretty common. They were standards basically, and nothing special among creation myths and ceremony.

In the end, Christianity is really nothing special if you compare it to the other world religions. It's just one of the surviving ones we have today.

reply to post by Excitable_Boy


Stories like those about Osiris in Egypt and Mithra in Babylon are divine myths with certain prophetic aspects. The stories about Jesus are personal testimonies, even historic records. If you interpret the Old Testament in the Messianic manner you have the exact same story. "In the beginning was the Word...". The story is eternal. BTW the symbol of Mithra is the cross and his number is 666 the sum of all the 36 decans of the Babylonian Zodiac. The system with 36 weeks/decans in a year comes from Egypt.

Originally posted by Lilitu

That's a nice review from a bible school graduate. I would recommend more scholarly reviews however. Here is a review by J. Harold Ellens, PhD, Research Scholar, Department of Near Eastern Studies, University of Michigan.

www.insmkt.com...

Ok, if we are going to delve into Argument By Authority, would Dr. Robert Price be a better skeptic? He is a proponent of the Jesus as Myth school himself and is a theology professor but is critical of Atwill.

www.robertmprice.mindvendor.com...

How about instead of playing dueling experts you take a look at the actual criticism of Atwills work?

BTW, it’s interesting that you ignore the criticisms presented by the techtoniks site due to the lack of the reviewers academic credentials when Atwill (whose work you are supporting) has none.

Eric

Originally posted by EricD
Ok, if we are going to delve into Argument By Authority, would Dr. Robert Price be a better skeptic? He is a proponent of the Jesus as Myth school himself and is a theology professor but is critical of Atwill.

Ellens is a known legitimate authority and so my appeal to his authority is not fallacious. As for Atwill, I never claimed he was an authority. I simply recommended his book. I don't even necessarily buy into it. It is very intriguing and highly plausible and should be read by anyone interested in the subject.

I'll read the review you linked to tomorrow if I can find the time.

You know if Atwill's book is such a hack then I am surprised you don't want people to read and think about it so they can make up their own minds. I tell people who ask why I don't believe in JeZeus to just read the bible and think about it. No thinking rational person can read it and come away believing it.

Originally posted by EricD
BTW, it’s interesting that you ignore the criticisms presented by the techtoniks site due to the lack of the reviewers academic credentials when Atwill (whose work you are supporting) has none.

Not so much due to a lack of credentials. There is no reviewer so biased as an apologist. You can't take such people seriously because they have stopped thinking. Besides, who is he really? "J.P. Holding" or "Bob Turkel"?

www.whois.ws...

I only have one question:

Why do they have so many threads on here about if Christianity is real or fake?

Oh... and yes, it is my belief that they have been duped.

I guess we will find out when we die that christians have been duped or not.

Well hey, the mormons got their start with John Smith talking to a fish that said go kill some guy and take his golden plates. Then Bush says he talks to God. I consider myself Christian philisophically but are there questions, sure. Do I think religion in the hands of some can be dangerous and detrimental? Yes. Do some do their day job, go home, kiss the wife and hug the kids and get up and do it all again without becoming radical. Absolutely. A personal relationship with a higher power should never be constituted as duped, ignorant, or salatious in nature.

Originally posted by jpm1602
Well hey, the mormons got their start with John Smith

Umm actually it was Joseph Smith not John Smith...

Originally posted by jpm1602 talking to a fish that said go kill some guy and take his golden plates.

He was actually speaking to Moroni who was a prophet of God in ancient america... not a fish...

Originally posted by jpm1602 Then Bush says he talks to God.

I try to talk to God every day... do you think Bush gets a reply?

Originally posted by jpm1602 I consider myself Christian philisophically but are there questions, sure.

Me too. I question everything. It's a healthy thing to do so... I'd be worried if we didnt question.

Originally posted by jpm1602 Do I think religion in the hands of some can be dangerous and detrimental? Yes.

Yes I think so too...

Originally posted by jpm1602 Do some do their day job, go home, kiss the wife and hug the kids and get up and do it all again without becoming radical. Absolutely. A personal relationship with a higher power should never be constituted as duped, ignorant, or salatious in nature.

I absolutely agree...

Originally posted by misswanderer31
I guess we will find out when we die that christians have been duped or not.

Argumentum Ad Baculum, I guess. Knowing anything requires a living healthy brain and so there is nothing to be known after brain death. Waiting for death to learn the dead do not rise is silliness. Visit any graveyard. The evidence against resurrection is overwhelming. Take a couple of faith-filled christians with you. Remind them of the words attributed to JeZeus to the effect that if any two or more believers gather together in his name and agree on anything they might ask in prayer that god will give it to them. Remind them that "nothing is too hard for god". Ask them to agree and ask that god raise up one of those dead decomposing bodies while you stand there. Do it for your own edification. I already know what the outcome will be.

Originally posted by misswanderer31 I guess we will find out when we die that christians have been duped or not.

Originally posted by Lilitu Argumentum Ad Baculum, I guess. Knowing anything requires a living healthy brain and so there is nothing to be known after brain death. Waiting for death to learn the dead do not rise is silliness.

Yes you are right there. Only if you dont believe in life after death. Of course it would sound silly. For those that believe in life after death (like me) it doesnt sound so silly. But the point I was trying to make is either way you will find out... when you die either "thats it..." game over or your "spirit" or "soul" or whatever you want to call it continues on somewhere else...

Originally posted by Lilitu Visit any graveyard. The evidence against resurrection is overwhelming. Take a couple of faith-filled christians with you. Remind them of the words attributed to JeZeus to the effect that if any two or more believers gather together in his name and agree on anything they might ask in prayer that god will give it to them. Remind them that "nothing is too hard for god". Ask them to agree and ask that god raise up one of those dead decomposing bodies while you stand there. Do it for your own edification. I already know what the outcome will be.

Actually, the First Resurrection takes places when Jesus comes back again for the second time... So your above suggestion would be pointless. As far as the scriptures tell us the only person to have been resurrected so far is Jesus Christ... and why would I want to tempt God anyways? It would be silly to even try when I know it wouldnt work. The First Resurrection wont happen as I said above... the second after the Millenium (1000 years)....

You may think that I'm silly for believing in something that cannot be proven... life after death.... But I have seen dead people... I didnt ask to see dead people... (spirits) and no I am not insane or mentally unstable, or hallucinate or take drugs or drink alcohol. I dont see them often either. But when i do it scares the crap outta me.... Once I saw one... I got so scared I ran outta the house and locked myself out side and had to walk to a friends house to drive me to work... hahaha... well enough rambling... But hey each to their own... we are all entitled to believe what we want to believe....


[edit on 4-4-2008 by misswanderer31]