Fitna (The Film)

Fitna
(Here I link to the most 'reasonable' english translation I can find, others translating the passages with such silliness as "when their skin is burnt crispy like a turkey").


I know that this topic is on quite a few of ATS's forums, but I think there is also a religious dimension to discuss, so I posted it here.

Y'know, I was very interested when I heard this was coming out, because it claimed to be 'anti-quran' and 'critical of the Quran'. However, I was disappointed in that regard. The film quoted 5 verses, mostly out of context and with the important parts missing. They had this 'stylistic point-by-point, with repitition for emphasis' type of translation going on, that didn't jive that well with accuracy. As an example:

Verse 8:60 (As translated in English version of video)
Prepare for them whatever cavalry ye are able of gathering

to strike terror

to strike terror into the hearts of enemies, of Allah and your enemies

Verse 8:58-61 (As translated in the Shakir version)
And if you fear treachery on the part of a people, then throw back to them on terms of equality; surely Allah does not love the treacherous. And let not those who disbelieve think that they shall come in first; surely they will not escape. And prepare against them what force you can and horses tied at the frontier, to frighten thereby the enemy of Allah and your enemy and others besides them, whom you do not know (but) Allah knows them; and whatever thing you will spend in Allah's way, it will be paid back to you fully and you shall not be dealt with unjustly. And if they incline to peace, then incline to it and trust in Allah; surely He is the Hearing, the Knowing.

Another example would be the quotation of Verse 47:4 as

Verse 47:4 (As translated in English version of video)
Therefore when you meet the unbelievers,

Smite at their necks and when you have caused a bloodbath among them

bind a bond firmly on them

Where they missed the important part where it said "meet in battle" (not just anywhere), and where they inserted the word 'bloodbath', which I can find in no translation.


My point being that this is nothing new. Instead, it is the same stuff you could pick up off any hate site on the net- mixed and matched to show the 'evilness', with little regard for accuracy.


The rest of the video has little to do with the Quran, and is mainly a juxtapositioning of different clips and images (some of which have little relevance with anything). For example, they show a picture of a crowd during the Shi'a self-flagellation (sorry, I don't remember what it is called), where they are holding up chains and knives, and another image of a woman with a baby in a carriage with the text something like "Is this what you want the future of our country to be like?". I might go into more detail about the clips in a bit, right now I must go.

Nobody doubts that it is a propaganda piece, but what I find interesting is how it shows Geert's biases and prejudices (interspaced with some nasty clips are some fairly mundane things that are shown to be 'evil' just because they involve Islam).

I'm not sure, but it seems to me that recently there has been something in the background pulling the strings trying to get a 'reaction' from the less well educated populations of muslims in some of the more backward countries, for what purpose, I don't know. This video doesn't seem to have achieved it's objective (yet), and I hope any well educated muslim who gets the chance to see it will realise it for the farce it is. This is why it is so silly to attempt to hide it. It needs to be shown!

[edit on 31-3-2008 by babloyi]

[edit on 31-3-2008 by babloyi]

Originally posted by babloyi


Y'know, I was very interested when I heard this was coming out, because it claimed to be 'anti-quran' and 'critical of the Quran'. However, I was disappointed in that regard. The film quoted 5 verses, mostly out of context and with the important parts missing. They had this 'stylistic point-by-point, with repitition for emphasis' type of translation going on, that didn't jive that well with accuracy. As an example:

Verse 8:60 (As translated in English version of video)
Prepare for them whatever cavalry ye are able of gathering

to strike terror

to strike terror into the hearts of enemies, of Allah and your enemies

My point being that this is nothing new. Instead, it is the same stuff you could pick up off any hate site on the net- mixed and matched to show the 'evilness', with little regard for accuracy.


The rest of the video has little to do with the Quran, and is mainly a juxtapositioning of different clips and images (some of which have little relevance with anything). For example, they show a picture of a crowd during the Shi'a self-flagellation (sorry, I don't remember what it is called), where they are holding up chains and knives, and another image of a woman with a baby in a carriage with the text something like "Is this what you want the future of our country to be like?". I might go into more detail about the clips in a bit, right now I must go.

Nobody doubts that it is a propaganda piece, but what I find interesting is how it shows Geert's biases and prejudices (interspaced with some nasty clips are some fairly mundane things that are shown to be 'evil' just because they involve Islam).

I'm not sure, but it seems to me that recently there has been something in the background pulling the strings trying to get a 'reaction' from the less well educated populations of muslims in some of the more backward countries, for what purpose, I don't know. This video doesn't seem to have achieved it's objective (yet), and I hope any well educated muslim who gets the chance to see it will realise it for the farce it is. This is why it is so silly to attempt to hide it. It needs to be shown!

[edit on 31-3-2008 by babloyi]

[edit on 31-3-2008 by babloyi]

Well, we all know how hard it is to get a reaction from muslim nations. After all, its not as if they will make death threats, riot, or muder people simply because of some harmless commentary upon their faith. Most muslim nations wouldn't, for instance, set fire to the embassy of a nation that published innocuous cartoons about Mohammed, right? Or, they wouldn't make death threats against an expat-teacher who named a teddy bear "Mohammed", at the behest of her students, of course. They wouldn't shoot a nun in cold blood in response to a comment that Pope Benedict XVI made when quoting a medieval era manuscript, either correct?

Or tape and publish the murder and beheading of Daniel Pearl, or Nick Berg.

Or encourage islamic supremacy via Saudi-government produced textbooks that refer to jews as "pigs".

Or broadcast children's tv programs that feature a knock-off version of Mickey Mouse calling on kids to martyr themselves.

Or murder the descendent of one of the West's most acclaimed artists, simply because he spoke out against Islam.

Or riot, and set fire, to large portions of the suburbs of Paris.

Or hijack airliners and crash them into buildings.

Or attempt to blow up those very same buildings, 8 years earlier.

Or murder Israeli olympic athletes at the Munich games.

Or use suicide bombers to murder civilians on Tel Aviv buses,

Obviously no one who follows this religion of "peace" would ever commit any of the above listed atrocities. never.

reply to post by BloodthirstyCapitalist


It is interesting how you equate 'a number of individuals' with 'a muslim nation'. But really, what has what you say got to do with the topic? It is odd to bring up a 'list of actions' taken by a certain group of people, when in the current topic I commented how no such type of actions have been taken. What is your point? Are you saying that we are in for a huge show of craziness?

Originally posted by babloyi
reply to post by BloodthirstyCapitalist

 

It is interesting how you equate 'a number of individuals' with 'a muslim nation'. But really, what has what you say got to do with the topic? It is odd to bring up a 'list of actions' taken by a certain group of people, when in the current topic I commented how no such type of actions have been taken. What is your point? Are you saying that we are in for a huge show of craziness?

My point is that there are many out there in the muslim world that don't see films like this as points of difference between them and the producers of such art. There is no disagreeing with these people, or voicing a dissenting opinion. Rather, they react, and extremly violently, to any commentary upon their faith.

You claim that "Fitna" shows Wilders' "biases and prejudices", completely dismissing the content of the film. You make sweeping assumptions, such as "Nobody doubts this is a propaganda piece", arrogantly believing your own opinion matches that of the Western World's. I realize, and acknowledge, that my opinion vis-a-vis Islamic fascism isn't the same as everyone else's, yet you seem to believe that your's is the agreed upon norm.

As for the horrific acts of brutality that are shown in the film having been committed by "a certain group of people", I would argue that had there only been one or two isolated incidents of islamic terrorism, it would be anomaly. But a trend of terrorist acts being committed over a series of decades, with the common trait being that the perpetrators are 18-35 year old muslims? To not begin to suspect that there must be some underlying dogma that is influencing their actions is to be satisfied in one's own ignorance.

Look to the "moderate" muslim community, and see how little they have done to actually assuage the opinion of many that Islam is a barbarbous faith. CAIR would rather file lawsuits against airlines and frightened passengers than try to improve American/ Islamic relations.

reply to post by BloodthirstyCapitalist

You are saying you don't think it is a propaganda piece?

Alright.....

And....'arrogantly believing my own opinion matches the western world'? What on earth do you mean? Where do you think I live? What 'culture' do you think I am from? Even if I was a dirt-poor afghani kid who suddenly got access to a computer, why shouldn't my opinions match the western world? Is everyone outside the 'western world' some sort of alien?

And I didn't dismiss the content of the film. I wrote a lot about it up there, showing that the main point of the film (criticism of the Quran) was flawed.

And you are saying that Geert is not biased? A fellow who's main point as a politician is not allowing 'others' into 'his' country? Who seems to think that 'more mosques than churches in Netherlands' and increased muslims in Netherlands is wrong in principle? Who seems to think there is fundementally wrong with a skyline just because it has a minaret? Who thinks serving halal food is wrong because it accommodates muslims?

[edit on 1-4-2008 by babloyi]

Originally posted by babloyi
reply to post by BloodthirstyCapitalist

 

It is interesting how you equate 'a number of individuals' with 'a muslim nation'.

How is that interesting. People do it all of the time. For instance, whenever there is a report of a preist molesting a child, we suddenly see threads of how bad Catholics are. All Christians are judged whenever a church leader is caught in a scandal. America is judged whenever Bush and Co. does something stupid.

It's human nature to condem the group for the action of a few in the forefront. The MSM is also to blame for this view. There is seldom any news on the good things that any group does. Scandal and violence sells.

(editied to add the following)

www.abovetopsecret.com...

what is your view on this thread?

[edit on 4/1/2008 by darkelf]

Originally posted by babloyi
I'm not sure, but it seems to me that recently there has been something in the background pulling the strings trying to get a 'reaction' from the less well educated populations of muslims in some of the more backward countries, for what purpose, I don't know. This video doesn't seem to have achieved it's objective (yet), and I hope any well educated muslim who gets the chance to see it will realise it for the farce it is. This is why it is so silly to attempt to hide it. It needs to be shown!

All I can really say is welcome to our world! LOL! First of all, you know how I feel about Islam but at the same time it saddens me to see propaganda videos concerning other religions consisting of nothing but disinformation and out of context quotes. To be honest, Christianity, Judaism, and Islam all have "valid" arguments against them however it is resorting to lies that get to me.

To answer your question as to what is the purpose of doing such things. *Puts on my tin foil hat* It certainly seems to be an effort to overthrow religion. And let's face it: Christianity and Islam, being the world's two largest religions with the most outspoken followers, both come under attack all the time. Judaism gets tossed into the mix due to being the first of the Abrahamic faiths and some try to discredit it to therefore discredit us. It is possible it has something to do with the NWO. You have to scrape off the old paint before you can apply the new paint, as they say.

Again, not that I agree with Islam but I can be fair and say resorting to lies and out of context quotes is flat out wrong and I do understand your frustration.

Wilders is one of those people who think that anyone who isn't white like himself is a profiteur and/or a criminal and should be thrown out of the Netherlands. He would be the first to join the Nazi's if he was alive 60-70 years ago.

He is one of the ones who would say that I am not Dutch, while my passport says that I am.



[edit on 1-4-2008 by TheBandit795]

Allow me to clarify my own position upon this issue:

I believe that Wilders' position is one of a extreme-right wing variety. While many of the statements that he has made in regards to Islam and muslims in general is far out of touch with reality, or even a sense of understanding and acceptance that is common in the West, there is a grain of truth underneath his bushel of Bulls**t.

To state that Fitna is just a propaganda piece, something that was constructed to simply turn popular sentiments against an otherwise innocuous group of people is flat out wrong. There is a growing trend within the islamic community of extreme anti-Western sentiment. The reaction to the Danish cartoons is a perfect example. The threats that have been made against his Holiness, Pope Benedict XVI in response to his comments in Germany yet another example. Look at the muslim immigrant populations in France and England: Both are agitating for the Sharia law (admittedly only applicable within their communities), and have violently attacked authorites (ex: Parisian suburbs).

One cannot also dismiss the fact that these spurts of violence that erupt within muslim communties seem to be rather localized. I cannot recall for the life of me the last time the Danish people rioted and set an Iranian Embassy on fire in response to cartoons published in Tehran. Rarely in the world do we see the type of hate displayed in muslim nations.

As for your opinion matching that of the Western World, I made that comment assuming, based upon your style of writing, that you are a Westener. My point was, just because you believe Wilders is a biased xenophobe who is out to spread false propaganda doesn't mean that everyone does.

Lastly, I would have to respectfully disagree with you AshleyD. I don't believe that there is a greater movement underway to eliminate religion, nor do I believe that Wilders is motivated by an anti-religious sentiment. You're right when you state that Christianity is being assailed by its critics, and "enemies". As a Catholic, my heart wept when the child-abuse scandal erupted again and again. Not just because it hurt the image of Mother Church, but also because it was just pure evil within the hearts of Priests. The acts they committed were unforgivable (IMO), and they were held responsible when their crimes were brought to light. The difference between Islam and Christianity is that people of the Islamic faith seem to be actively encouraging bloodshed. In multiple nations around the world, muslims are calling for attacks upon "infidels" and "kafir". Imams preach hate and intolerance to their flock, and nothing is done about it. They cry out to allah before murdering civilians, yet Islam as a faith isnt held as responsible. To do so wouldn't be "PC"; yet, Catholic Priests, good and bad, were eyed with suspicion after a few Priests were found out.

As an afterthought, perhaps I should just let the evening news argue my point for me:
Non-muslims deserve to be Punished

Thankfully the gentle whispers of "moderate" muslims apparently can be heard over the raging storm of extremists.