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Police arrest anti-war protester, 80, at mall.

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posted on Mar, 31 2008 @ 01:18 PM
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reply to post by rcwj75
 


I know what you are saying- my response was in your blanket response. I only offered a different view rather than blame-shifting it back onto the citizens. A police officer is put into a place of responsibility to "protect and serve".

Peaceful protesting is the right of every American citizen. If the Mall owner wanted the man off the business property and chose to use the police to do their dirty work- then shame on them and shame on the police for doing it and not referring the Mall men back to the constitution! IMO- this is what a good cop would do.

Sadly good cops are outnumbered by bad ones so arguments like this continue- blame gets shifted- the problem gets worse and people get hurt and killed.

Most people tune out some old guy in a wheel chair (older folks tend to get ignored regardless of what they are wearing). This is quite true.

And citizens arrest is more complicated than you make it out to be. A police officer is dispatched to conduct an arrest- yet is required to assess the situation and is given the power/authority to decide whether or not arrest is warranted.

Police are also exhausted and their forces stretched thin so due to a hectic schedule- they arrest and let a judge decide. Its easier, faster and allows them to move on to the next issue/problem. It should be known that police are not obligated to assess- but do retain the authority - being in a given situation the officer decides to let the old curmudgeon go with a strong warning and say rolls him across the street and away from the mall and the old guy rolls back into the Mall and hurts someone- then the officer is liable and the broader can of worms of liability is brought into the open. Its easier to hand it over to the judged and fall back.

Police were created to protect and serve the public trust and this is largely dismissed because of inconvenience and liability. IMO- they should not take the job without full knowledge and understanding of this credo.

There are goods and bad cops but the worst are stupid cops and this group out number good and bad cops say 5 to 1.

[edit on 31-3-2008 by dk3000]




posted on Mar, 31 2008 @ 01:50 PM
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Originally posted by dk3000
I know what you are saying- my response was in your blanket response. I only offered a different view rather than blame-shifting it back onto the citizens. A police officer is put into a place of responsibility to "protect and serve".


Agreed, and they were serving...the citizens who complained, the ones who own the property and the citizens who made the arrest. Whether you like it or not has no bearing on the law....do I even agree with having the old guy arrested...NOPE...but I don't own the mall, or the land...so its not my call....again dont forget this is a PRIVATE PROPERTY trespassing issue...not a freedom of speech issue.


Peaceful protesting is the right of every American citizen. If the Mall owner wanted the man off the business property and chose to use the police to do their dirty work- then shame on them and shame on the police for doing it and not referring the Mall men back to the constitution! IMO- this is what a good cop would do.


Again you fail to see what ACTUALLY happened. Old man protesting...people not liking what he is saying or wearing....people complain to the mall staff/security....mall manager/staff/security ask old man to cover up or turn over his shirt because its THEIR property and right....old man says screw off....mall staff/security don't like being told screw off so ask old man to exit the premises...old man again says screw off and won't leave....mall staff/security don't like this either.....knowing he is NOW trespassing mall staff/security call police and decide to arrest him for trespassing on THEIR property. Police show up and find out what went down, old man still pissed and says I an't going anywhere...security informs police they arrested him for trespassing...officers then say ok well then we will take him in.....HE IS NOT COVERED BY THE CONSITITUTION on someone elses land'property. If thats the case if someone comes onto your porch tonight screaming "I love Hitler and the Nazi party was right" YOU have no right/power to have them removed..nor can you take it upon YOURSELF to do so...you have to wait until THEY decide to leave. See how it doesn't make sense??


Sadly good cops are outnumbered by bad ones so arguments like this continue- blame gets shifted- the problem gets worse and people get hurt and killed.


and again you blame the wrong people. This incident has NOTHING to do with cops...its has to do with your 1st amendment right vs private property owners then your decision to NOT leave when told to by that owner...which equals a crime if you do not....


Most people tune out some old guy in a wheel chair (older folks tend to get ignored regardless of what they are wearing). This is quite true


I agree...sad but true..the old folks are overlooked...he may have had some great points to protest and facts to share...but its WHERE he did it that raised questions...


And citizens arrest is more complicated than you make it out to be. A police officer is dispatched to conduct an arrest- yet is required to assess the situation and is given the power/authority to decide whether or not arrest is warranted.


No actually its not. Your assuming such. You are right that when a citizens arrest is made we go there to find out what is actually happening. IF the arrest is unlawful and no law was broken, etc...then sure we can tell the arrestee that he has to let the guy go and let it be. But IF the law was broken..like it was here...the arrest is then lawful and has already been made. We CANNOT change the arrest...only a judge can...again WE AS POLICE CANNOT make an on spot call to release a guy arrested by a citizen...because the citizen is the one filing the arrest with the court...NOT US!!!


Police are also exhausted and their forces stretched thin so due to a hectic schedule- they arrest and let a judge decide. Its easier, faster and allows them to move on to the next issue/problem. It should be known that police are not obligated to assess- but do retain the authority - being in a given situation the officer decides to let the old curmudgeon go with a strong warning and say rolls him across the street and away from the mall and the old guy rolls back into the Mall and hurts someone- then the officer is liable and the broader can of worms of liability is brought into the open. Its easier to hand it over to the judged and fall back.


Again...again again....we only have the discretion to let people GO if WEEEEE make the arrest. Again..if WE arrive on scene and security DID NOT arrest him then the officers could have let him be and just told him to leave.


Police were created to protect and serve the public trust and this is largely dismissed because of inconvenience and liability. IMO- they should not take the job without full knowledge and understanding of this credo.


As I stated they did serve..just because your pissed they didn't serve the side your cheering for doesn't mean they weren't do their jobs. Again, not understanding the way it went down and how it LEGALLY went down leads to saying dumb stuff like this.


There are goods and bad cops but the worst are stupid cops and this group out number good and bad cops say 5 to 1.


I agree there are...why this is even being discussed on this thread..I have no idea...I guess to make yourself feel better...hope it worked!




[edit on 3/31/2008 by rcwj75]



posted on Mar, 31 2008 @ 02:02 PM
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reply to post by rcwj75
 


LOL,you sound like a cop-it sems like you all speak alike...for exampll you keep saying "again","yet again"and you talk in a "coppish trying to be assertive tone-Im not trying to bash you or anything just pointing out that it seems like you all(law enf.)speak alike.

Maybe we should have Judge Dredd type cops,lol



posted on Mar, 31 2008 @ 02:11 PM
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reply to post by jkrog08
 


Its all good because your right...we do tend to use the same words. When you deal with the same situations and people OVER and OVER you have to. They may listen the first time but many have it in their heads it is, should be, or ought to be THIS WAY. Then you have to figure out a way to explain it is not..lol. Which leads to a lot of again's and repeated phrases...



posted on Mar, 31 2008 @ 02:36 PM
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Originally posted by rcwj75
You actually think ANY cop has the ability, more then you or another citizen, to go make sure laws are changed/not enforced?

Again this is WAAAAAY above your beat cops and chiefs......




Ummm...not to got too far off topic, but if you disagreed with and thought a particular law was wrong and unjust, then could you not, as a cop on the beat, chose whether or not to enforce that particular law? For example, you are walking down the street on patrol, and smell marijuana. Now, if you thought that the law was wrong on this area, couldn't you simply ignore your sense of smell rather than investigate?

I agree with you that we need to be going after the lawmakers to effect real change in this country, but on a realistic level, if a law is not being enforced, it may as well not exist. Cops DO have a certain amount of discretion, don't they? I bet the fellers over at LEAP (Law Enforcement Against Prohibition) would agree that overlooking minor (patently unjust) offenses is an effective means of subverting legislation that runs contrary to the will (and good interest) of the people anyway.

Back on topic, I agree that if you are on someone's private property and they don't like what you are wearing or doing, you are SOL. In the present case, it makes the property owners look really bad, though.



posted on Mar, 31 2008 @ 02:48 PM
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Originally posted by keeb333
Ummm...not to got too far off topic, but if you disagreed with and thought a particular law was wrong and unjust, then could you not, as a cop on the beat, chose whether or not to enforce that particular law? For example, you are walking down the street on patrol, and smell marijuana. Now, if you thought that the law was wrong on this area, couldn't you simply ignore your sense of smell rather than investigate?


I agree and HAVE not written tickets or made arrests on little BS stuff. MANY people I pulled over got warnings rather then tickets because I WILL NOT write a ticket for someone's license plate light being out. It's stupid, and why make them pay fine money when they can use that money to fix the problem? And I have also taken weed from kids and crushed it or pured it out and usually what i will do is make them call MOM&DAD and tell them what they were doing...it usually scares them more then me arresting them..lol.


I agree with you that we need to be going after the lawmakers to effect real change in this country, but on a realistic level, if a law is not being enforced, it may as well not exist. Cops DO have a certain amount of discretion, don't they? I bet the fellers over at LEAP (Law Enforcement Against Prohibition) would agree that overlooking minor (patently unjust) offenses is an effective means of subverting legislation that runs contrary to the will (and good interest) of the people anyway.


We do, like I stated above...but in THIS instance and situation they did not because they didn't make the arrest.


Back on topic, I agree that if you are on someone's private property and they don't like what you are wearing or doing, you are SOL. In the present case, it makes the property owners look really bad, though.


AGREED!!!

[edit on 3/31/2008 by rcwj75]



posted on Mar, 31 2008 @ 03:10 PM
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Originally posted by rcwj75

Originally posted by dk3000


and again you blame the wrong people. This incident has NOTHING to do with cops...its has to do with your 1st amendment right vs private property owners then your decision to NOT leave when told to by that owner...which equals a crime if you do not....

[edit on 3/31/2008 by rcwj75]


I get that. What I do not get is why the amendment rights are being violated, disrespected and enforced. This argument will disappear soon enough as there will be no 1st Amendment because of the confusion of the citizen's understanding and our seeming inability to learn this- it will just be removed.

Perhaps more focus and study in schools would prevent this- especially if it became its own curriculum rather than getting buried as "pork" people young and old would stop behaving so badly and be so ignorant to definitions- then the COPS would not need to electrocute them in public- as often.

If you want people to be responsible and educated- then you have to educate them responsibly. This is clear, concise and flawless logical thought. If carried out by a responsible person there would actually be a surplus of good cops efficiently able to handle the few rogue lunatics who never seem to learn and must be kept from society- These rogue citizens are more frightening to me.

Attempting to solicit responsible and logical solutions and understandings by blame shifting it to an ill-informed public is pretty insane to me. That's like giving a pack a matches to an arsonist then arresting him for causing the fire.

Justifying firing on stupid people is as psychotic as Adolph Hitler's T-4 experiments!

I do not protest because I know my rights and can apply my personal negative experience as it occurred on a legal part of city property and was a peaceful gathering when good, bad and the incredibly stupid cops arrived and broke up what had not even started yet!

It happened. I was there.

I have also been denied in a court my right to due process. I addressed the issue and was told that it would get me in far more hot water to bring it up. You want to blame it on an old man or a stupid kid go ahead that is your right to opinion. I am not blaming anyone- but next time you always call me and I would take that old man to lunch and just listen to him for a while- I can just bet he would roll on home and take a nap.

You propose taking peoples rights away- I propose proper and responsible education and I do not care what an 11-year old girl is doing or a wheelchair bound old fart is doing because I can and have handled them even with my limited knowledge and I did not need to place them under citizens arrest or taser them.

The only solution is education which is being systematically degenerated and will eventually be done away with altogether.

I have no interest in slavery and even less in being a drone- so you may as well come by and get me now!



posted on Mar, 31 2008 @ 03:13 PM
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Government can do anything they want because they know that we are not really organized and powerful enough to cause changes.

The Iraq issue is basically split among the Americans, half wants to fight on and the others want it to stop. I find that a lot of patriotic people are syncophants and they are afraid to speak their heart for the war because it'll make them sound brutal and get criticized. Nationalism is strong in the U.S.

The U.S. should never have invaded Iraq in the first place, I mean look at our economy now, all those war money could have gone to the education systems which SUCKS.

These 80 people are arrested probably because they were a bit out of control if you know what I mean.



posted on Mar, 31 2008 @ 03:14 PM
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reply to post by die_another_day
 


It's not 80 people, it's an 80-year-old man.



posted on Mar, 31 2008 @ 03:21 PM
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reply to post by rcwj75
 


Well, sir, you seem much more reasonable than the cops I have had the misfortune to encounter! We could sure use some cops with integrity in my small town! lol...Atlanta probably needs you more, though!



posted on Mar, 31 2008 @ 03:34 PM
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reply to post by dk3000
 


OK wow...you made NOOO sense at all. You went on and on about stuff that has nothing to do with the thread. Your personal bias and feelings obviously took over and you ranted.

You are WRONG AGAIN! Never did I say we should take rights from anyone, nor do I support it. I do my job the best I can with what I got (that being the important part)...and use my own discretion where I can apply it. You can blame the police all you want, but your still WAY off on who your anger should be directed at.

Lastly, your comment that insinuated we look the other way or not enforce the laws.....I guess in your mind we should just quit and go do something else because you don't like that we have to enforce laws you disagree with?

EDIT TO ADD: I missed the statement you made how YOU could of handled it different and without using a taser...sorry but your either that short of a picnic or you truly are not grasping EVERYTHING that has been talked about by all of us in this thread about the ACTUAL incident...not some made up situation in your head.

[edit on 3/31/2008 by rcwj75]



posted on Mar, 31 2008 @ 03:39 PM
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reply to post by dk3000
 


I tend to believe that Democracy in itself is destined to fail-I am not saying Communisim or any other Dictatorship type government is better,but what we have is more of a Republic-that is not Democracy....We are on the right track with Democracy but we still have learning to do to find a better form of government-Democracy should be a part of the government-not the government itself.The powers that be(PTB)know that they can basically get away with anything and the citizens wont do anything cause they cant.Why,you ask?Because the way we have our "Democracy"set up it is impossible for that many people...ie:the US citizens to agree enough were they can take action-it will always be split 50/50 or 60/40,but never the 95/5 or better you will need for the governed to effect change on the government.So by that inate flaw,the powers that be know they can never be overthrown from THEIR agenda.Thats my thoughts on the Democracy and "constitutional"issues.



posted on Mar, 31 2008 @ 03:42 PM
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Also DK how were your due process rights violated?



posted on Mar, 31 2008 @ 03:42 PM
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reply to post by keeb333
 


Thans keeb....like I said I do my best with what i got. I try to put myself in their shoes when i can to make my decision. Small towns are 50/50...you either get the cops who stay close to their citizens and the people know and respect the law. Or you have a town with a police force run like a prison and they are nothing but bad news.....so then people have no respect for the law or them.

And yeah...down here things are a bit wild..lol..so I definitly have job security!!!



posted on Mar, 31 2008 @ 03:46 PM
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reply to post by rcwj75
 


I know that we arnt talking about "tasers"here,but IMO tasers are WIDLEY OVERUSED AND ABUSED by law enforcement because they are classified as "non lethal"and therefor cant kill right?Wrong,also cops either think pain is good for discipline or dont think about what it non leathal weapons can impose on the human body,they dont care for the hurt part-cause its well within their rights to use this non lethal weapon.I know ALL cops get shocked in training-but oh how they do forget.



posted on Mar, 31 2008 @ 05:02 PM
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I think it was the malls right to call the cops if this guy was causing problems with commerce. The mall is there to sell things not accommodate some whack job on a mission. He may have had good intentions but he lost my support when he didn't leave when asked. If the mall would have thrown him out he would have sued them for hurting him... Let the cops take the rap is what the mall is thinking...

As far as cops go I don't trust them at all. It seems to me that you can't tell the jack boot whackos from the normal ones. When I come into contact with them I am very polite even if they are idiots. Most are cold unassuming ba$tards. Even after you prove you are a good guy even if you are not wearing your darn seat belt! (Which used to be a secondary offence btw)

When I get pulled over I have everything ready when they come up to the car and they still act like you are scum. A little professional courtesy from the civil "servants" would be nice.... I think the driving while black thing is a farce. I think if you're just driving period you are suspect in most of these cops eyes..

It seems to me its getting to the point where you can be nicer than the Easter bunny but they still have a Judge Dread attitude. Pretty soon it will be "I am going to "tase you bro" if you don't pull your license out of your wallet fast enough.."



posted on Mar, 31 2008 @ 05:08 PM
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I think most cops think they are the masters,not servents of the people.



posted on Mar, 31 2008 @ 05:55 PM
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Originally posted by Griff
reply to post by shameful631
 


God forbid people "harrasing" others about their views. How bout all you "Christian" and "war mongering" folk harrasing ME about MY views??


Yeah, annoying isn't it? Don't you want to be left alone when someone's preaching at you?...I consider myself very left-leaning (though I try to be as Realistic as possible) and don't agree with this war, or anyone being arrested for their views. However, this man wasn't arrested for his views, no matter how much dramatic language is used. According to our eyewitness, these people were harrassing people in the parking lot and inside for being a bush/troop/war supporter. What about these peoples' rights? Do they not have the right to shop in peace? Would the people reacting so dramatically to this thread react the same to a thread about an 80 year old church deacon who was removed from the mall after him and his group of PRO-war protesters refused to comply with mall rules? Probably not. Perhaps your arm would be twisted to begrudgingly agree with law enforcement, just in that case, though.

Or maybe not, and I'm just an A-hole.

That being said, if I was a shopper at this mall on that day, I would be very very annoyed no matter what was being preached at me while I was trying to shop with my wife/kids/grandma, pro or anti war. Would you want any people swearing and yelling stuff at your children, or you? It's annoying. I'm sure there are days when "lefties" like yourselves (and myself) are in not in the mood for loud protesting. And I'm sure that complaints would be made, (especially if it was against some belief you held dear), though not to mall security, which is a bit ridiculous.

The point is, an 80-year-old man go arrested for a perfectly logical reason, really, and he LOOKED like he was getting arrested for some grand violation of his rights. Isn't that a win-win situation? Emotions were stirred, attention was brought to the story, and dramatic upbursts were caused on a usually amazing forum site where intelligent conversation usually wins out.

Forgive me for being a preachy Canadian, but instead of playing into how "they" paint left-wingers (over-emotional, non-critical thinkers etc etc) by ranting all over a subject before researching it, how about doing just that and discussing it intelligently (which many of you did).

Just think about this: How many times has someone tried to convert you to their way of thinking by preaching at you, yelling, etc. How many times has that worked? Exactly. Sure this mall incident may have instilled some solidarity amongst these protesters, and scored a small moral victory, but do you think that any minds were changed about the war that day? Probably not. People can't see past the yelling, sloganeering, and rhetoric to the very real, important messages that these groups are trying to get across. That people NEED to hear.

Stop using shock and awe and start THINKING and get organized. That's the only way change will occur.



posted on Mar, 31 2008 @ 06:23 PM
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Originally posted by rcwj75 many words, words, lots of words


I actually agree with you and feel sympathetic to your plight. You have provided a reasonable rebuttal/reply to people and yet they still don't seem to be tasking it in.
I don't like cops that much, in general, but they seem to be a necessary evil, and to be honest, we need more like you who seem reasonable, but I'm not in U.S. anyway so ....meh...



posted on Mar, 31 2008 @ 06:29 PM
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reply to post by rcwj75
 


Same words over again. Repetition is the most effective form of mind control. When that fails force is very effective. More effective still is when someone is trained in the art of repetitive phrases and words and doesn't even know it- BAM powerfully effective.



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