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Originally posted by dk3000
I know what you are saying- my response was in your blanket response. I only offered a different view rather than blame-shifting it back onto the citizens. A police officer is put into a place of responsibility to "protect and serve".
Peaceful protesting is the right of every American citizen. If the Mall owner wanted the man off the business property and chose to use the police to do their dirty work- then shame on them and shame on the police for doing it and not referring the Mall men back to the constitution! IMO- this is what a good cop would do.
Sadly good cops are outnumbered by bad ones so arguments like this continue- blame gets shifted- the problem gets worse and people get hurt and killed.
Most people tune out some old guy in a wheel chair (older folks tend to get ignored regardless of what they are wearing). This is quite true
And citizens arrest is more complicated than you make it out to be. A police officer is dispatched to conduct an arrest- yet is required to assess the situation and is given the power/authority to decide whether or not arrest is warranted.
Police are also exhausted and their forces stretched thin so due to a hectic schedule- they arrest and let a judge decide. Its easier, faster and allows them to move on to the next issue/problem. It should be known that police are not obligated to assess- but do retain the authority - being in a given situation the officer decides to let the old curmudgeon go with a strong warning and say rolls him across the street and away from the mall and the old guy rolls back into the Mall and hurts someone- then the officer is liable and the broader can of worms of liability is brought into the open. Its easier to hand it over to the judged and fall back.
Police were created to protect and serve the public trust and this is largely dismissed because of inconvenience and liability. IMO- they should not take the job without full knowledge and understanding of this credo.
There are goods and bad cops but the worst are stupid cops and this group out number good and bad cops say 5 to 1.
Originally posted by rcwj75
You actually think ANY cop has the ability, more then you or another citizen, to go make sure laws are changed/not enforced?
Again this is WAAAAAY above your beat cops and chiefs......
Originally posted by keeb333
Ummm...not to got too far off topic, but if you disagreed with and thought a particular law was wrong and unjust, then could you not, as a cop on the beat, chose whether or not to enforce that particular law? For example, you are walking down the street on patrol, and smell marijuana. Now, if you thought that the law was wrong on this area, couldn't you simply ignore your sense of smell rather than investigate?
I agree with you that we need to be going after the lawmakers to effect real change in this country, but on a realistic level, if a law is not being enforced, it may as well not exist. Cops DO have a certain amount of discretion, don't they? I bet the fellers over at LEAP (Law Enforcement Against Prohibition) would agree that overlooking minor (patently unjust) offenses is an effective means of subverting legislation that runs contrary to the will (and good interest) of the people anyway.
Back on topic, I agree that if you are on someone's private property and they don't like what you are wearing or doing, you are SOL. In the present case, it makes the property owners look really bad, though.
Originally posted by rcwj75
Originally posted by dk3000
and again you blame the wrong people. This incident has NOTHING to do with cops...its has to do with your 1st amendment right vs private property owners then your decision to NOT leave when told to by that owner...which equals a crime if you do not....
[edit on 3/31/2008 by rcwj75]
I get that. What I do not get is why the amendment rights are being violated, disrespected and enforced. This argument will disappear soon enough as there will be no 1st Amendment because of the confusion of the citizen's understanding and our seeming inability to learn this- it will just be removed.
Perhaps more focus and study in schools would prevent this- especially if it became its own curriculum rather than getting buried as "pork" people young and old would stop behaving so badly and be so ignorant to definitions- then the COPS would not need to electrocute them in public- as often.
If you want people to be responsible and educated- then you have to educate them responsibly. This is clear, concise and flawless logical thought. If carried out by a responsible person there would actually be a surplus of good cops efficiently able to handle the few rogue lunatics who never seem to learn and must be kept from society- These rogue citizens are more frightening to me.
Attempting to solicit responsible and logical solutions and understandings by blame shifting it to an ill-informed public is pretty insane to me. That's like giving a pack a matches to an arsonist then arresting him for causing the fire.
Justifying firing on stupid people is as psychotic as Adolph Hitler's T-4 experiments!
I do not protest because I know my rights and can apply my personal negative experience as it occurred on a legal part of city property and was a peaceful gathering when good, bad and the incredibly stupid cops arrived and broke up what had not even started yet!
It happened. I was there.
I have also been denied in a court my right to due process. I addressed the issue and was told that it would get me in far more hot water to bring it up. You want to blame it on an old man or a stupid kid go ahead that is your right to opinion. I am not blaming anyone- but next time you always call me and I would take that old man to lunch and just listen to him for a while- I can just bet he would roll on home and take a nap.
You propose taking peoples rights away- I propose proper and responsible education and I do not care what an 11-year old girl is doing or a wheelchair bound old fart is doing because I can and have handled them even with my limited knowledge and I did not need to place them under citizens arrest or taser them.
The only solution is education which is being systematically degenerated and will eventually be done away with altogether.
I have no interest in slavery and even less in being a drone- so you may as well come by and get me now!
Originally posted by Griff
reply to post by shameful631
God forbid people "harrasing" others about their views. How bout all you "Christian" and "war mongering" folk harrasing ME about MY views??
Yeah, annoying isn't it? Don't you want to be left alone when someone's preaching at you?...I consider myself very left-leaning (though I try to be as Realistic as possible) and don't agree with this war, or anyone being arrested for their views. However, this man wasn't arrested for his views, no matter how much dramatic language is used. According to our eyewitness, these people were harrassing people in the parking lot and inside for being a bush/troop/war supporter. What about these peoples' rights? Do they not have the right to shop in peace? Would the people reacting so dramatically to this thread react the same to a thread about an 80 year old church deacon who was removed from the mall after him and his group of PRO-war protesters refused to comply with mall rules? Probably not. Perhaps your arm would be twisted to begrudgingly agree with law enforcement, just in that case, though.
Or maybe not, and I'm just an A-hole.
That being said, if I was a shopper at this mall on that day, I would be very very annoyed no matter what was being preached at me while I was trying to shop with my wife/kids/grandma, pro or anti war. Would you want any people swearing and yelling stuff at your children, or you? It's annoying. I'm sure there are days when "lefties" like yourselves (and myself) are in not in the mood for loud protesting. And I'm sure that complaints would be made, (especially if it was against some belief you held dear), though not to mall security, which is a bit ridiculous.
The point is, an 80-year-old man go arrested for a perfectly logical reason, really, and he LOOKED like he was getting arrested for some grand violation of his rights. Isn't that a win-win situation? Emotions were stirred, attention was brought to the story, and dramatic upbursts were caused on a usually amazing forum site where intelligent conversation usually wins out.
Forgive me for being a preachy Canadian, but instead of playing into how "they" paint left-wingers (over-emotional, non-critical thinkers etc etc) by ranting all over a subject before researching it, how about doing just that and discussing it intelligently (which many of you did).
Just think about this: How many times has someone tried to convert you to their way of thinking by preaching at you, yelling, etc. How many times has that worked? Exactly. Sure this mall incident may have instilled some solidarity amongst these protesters, and scored a small moral victory, but do you think that any minds were changed about the war that day? Probably not. People can't see past the yelling, sloganeering, and rhetoric to the very real, important messages that these groups are trying to get across. That people NEED to hear.
Stop using shock and awe and start THINKING and get organized. That's the only way change will occur.
Originally posted by rcwj75 many words, words, lots of words