Police arrest anti-war protester, 80, at mall.

Originally posted by Damocles
the ACTUAL headline from the original source is:

Police arrest anti-war protester, 80, at mall

Exactly! If the headline read "Police arrest man, 80, trespassing at mall" we wouldn't even be discussing this now.

Those of you who approached this with a bit of rationality and skepticism should be applauded...I hope the moderators give it to you.

Those of you who had a knee-jerk reaction to the headline should be ashamed. Perhaps you will exercise a bit of critical-thinking in the future, instead of posting thinking responses like "Popular Opinion Is Outlawed!!!!" I wonder how many of you actually took the time to read the article beyond the headline or examine it beyond the biased sensationalism.

reply to post by Dock6

Originally posted by Damocles
so i guess of all of them the only one with the cajones to stand up for their beliefs was the 80yo deacon...theres a man i can respect

i dont typically quote myself cuz i find it pretentious but i just wanted to show that i do actually agree with you.

but, that doesnt change the fact that he broke the law. he was arrested for it. he made a choice and we're, as adults, responsible for those choices.

but you have to admire a guy willing to get arrested for his beliefs. doesnt matter what those beliefs are...i dont know, guess i just like seeing people stand up for their convictions. even if i disagree with them.

Yeah! The old man was awesome, he didn't bow down to ignorants and stood for freedom of speech. I don't know when the last time I shopped at a mall, but it's probably all those rich I'm too good to see that t-shirt folks that don't give a d@m about anyone but there selfs anyway. I wonder if people can stand outside the mall and protest or is that tresspassing too! That old mans taxes and hard work along with all the soldiers and the rest of us paid for that land with blood and courage so I feel there's no tresspassing at all except for maybe that mall!!

But Zirkel said he was sitting in the food court drinking coffee with his wife Marie, 77, and several others when police and mall security officers approached and demanded they remove their anti-war T-shirts.

I don't see how this activity constitutes trespassing...unless it was really bad coffee or something. In my opinion, the mall owners have crossed a very fine line. This action will call into question their dress code policy which must be administered fairly and broadly. Have you walked through a mall recently? You will see people in all manner of dress or undress. It's a very slippery slope when you begin to determine what is offensive in these minor terms. If this was offensive I certainly hope the complainers don't watch the evening news about what our soldiers are having to see every day in Iraq.

The article sounds like the mall just didn't want to be the site of any speaking out on any issue. It might get in the way of people spending all that tax refund money shrub is sending out. The man's story and the security's story differ greatly. Great post op! I certainly hope you follow this one as it progresses through the "system". And for anyone interested...Simon Property Group is based in Indianapolis. I, for one, am sending a letter of unsupport for their overreaction and letting them know I won't be spending my shrub money at their establishments which includes the Mall of America and many, many, many others.

Peace

Technically ofcourse you are correct! He broke the law No doubt!

It was technically illegal for Rosa Parks to ride in the front of the bus. But she did it anyway even though it made folks uncomfortable!

People in our country are already uncomfortable with the truth about this war and do their very best to ignore it all together with the aid of the MSM.

I would appeal to the police and military on this board to remember the constitution and protect and serve we the people! I have a feeling it's going to be a bumpy ride in the near future.

Just a side note. Did you know that corporations have the rights of personhood! Comes in really handy at tax time

"Simon Property Group" my new favorite "retirement" candidates. I wonder what they're made of? Who's pockets are they lining this political season?

Speak'

Allow mw to play devils advocate for a moment if you will, please.

I wonder if it is possible that the mall security asked the gentleman to leave(which they have every right to do) because several shoppers were offended and complained to security. The gentleman refused to leave the mall which is considerd "private property" and was then arrested for "tresspassing".
iF indeed this is how it went down, no civil liberties were stomped on
and everone can sleep tight tonight not worrying about the gestapo
kicking down your door and taking your guns.
I would love to know exactly what he was chrged with. If it was disturbing the peace then we all need to raise hell and send emails en mass to the appropriate police depatment demanding the charges be dropped
or there will be civil unrest,the likes of which your department nor the National Guard nor the Goddamn Military its own friggin self is prepaired to deal with.
AMEN!

reply to post by SpeakEasyOne


They have traditionally been Democrat. They were supporters of Clinton/Gore so I would bet they give money to Hillary. Just a guess based on their past giving. The next generation is now in charge of the corporation for the most part. They also own the Indiana Pacers who have an impressive arrest record for being the most highly subsidized pro basketball team in America under their deal with the construction of Conseco Fieldhouse. Corporate welfare at its finest those sports teams are. But, back to the 80 year old war protester t-shirt, I can't wait to read Simon's t-shirt banning policy! They are going to have a very hard time finding consistent administration of this policy.

Peace

Originally posted by Leo Strauss
I would appeal to the police and military on this board to remember the constitution and protect and serve we the people! I have a feeling it's going to be a bumpy ride in the near future.

We are all for it. But remember this is above us...the problem is at the top of the pyramid, not the bottom.

Originally posted by DancedWithWolves

I don't see how this activity constitutes trespassing...unless it was really bad coffee or something.

Continue reading the article just past the portion you quoted and you will the following:

Zirkel refused to turn his shirt inside out AND WOULDN'T LEAVE, police said.

That's called trespassing.

At the opposite end of this story from the elderly citizen exercising his free speech rights is some arrogant, self-righteous, pseudo-patriotic zealot who felt that their right to not feel uncomfortable by being reminded of the truth outweighed the very principles of our Constitution. The irony is sickening.

[edit on 30/3/08 by kosmicjack]

Originally posted by rcwj75
See its easy to sit and say to do this and that but NOT know the laws. It was a mall, which means it was most likely PRIVATE PROPERTY. So security of that MALL has the final say when it comes to removal/arrest. We as LEO's cannot decide that on scene for something like this. They wanted him gone, it was provate property and he HAS to go. He didn't so they "arrested" him...so the law WAS broken and police have no authority to revoke a provate arrest.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Im putting this bar here because I screwed up this post really bad. Above this line is the quote from rcwj75. Below is my response...

You raise a VERY good point. While it does anger me that security wanted him off the property because of what was on his shirt, he did refuse to leave. As far as I know, If they dont want you on their property any longer and you refuse to leave, it is considered trespassing. So really this man was not arrested because of what he was wearing, he was aressted for trespassing.

In all honesty I was going to post saying things like " How dar they arrest this man simply for wearing an anti war shirt" but then I read your post and I learned a very good leason. What is that lesson?

It really does pay to consider both points of view before jumping to conclusions and assuming his right to free speech was infringed upon.

One big star coming your way.


Wow. what the hell did I do to my post????
[edit on 30-3-2008 by gimme_some_truth]

[edit on 30-3-2008 by gimme_some_truth]





Mod Edit: Format correction - Jak

[edit on 31/3/08 by JAK]

reply to post by BlueTriangle


Believe it or not...I did read the entire article. I find it a helpful activity before posting but thanks for checking. I disagree with the premise under which the charges were made. If you can show me that this is a consistently administered policy of Simon Property Group that bans all t-shirts stating opinions then, hey, I will reconsider my opinion. I would even wager a guess that there are stores in that mall which sell t-shirts that some might consider inappropriate by another standard.

Peace

I had almost the same thing happen.

I bought the shirt in the mall and I was a manager in the mall. The security guard was threatening me and being completely rude. She determined on her own my shirt was offensive and should be covered or removed. The shirt said PISS OFF I have enough friends. Btw it wasnt offensive to any other security guard that saw it.

I zipped my jacket long enough to get by her.

I actually had a reason to be there so couldnt have been asked to leave (ie tresspassing) and how can you sell something in a mall and then not allow it to be worn there.

Id be curious to know where he got the shirt. (didnt read the article sorry if it says).

[edit on 30-3-2008 by ATruGod]

rcwj75, correct me if im mistaken but once the security guards asked him to leave, he didnt, they detained him and called the police...since its likely the mall was pressing charges, doesnt THAT obligate the police to arrest him regardless of their own opinions of the matter?

its like if someone comes into my house, i ask them to leave, they dont, i press charges...the cops MUST arrest the person right?

or am i confused in this matter?

so really the blame in ALL of this rests in the poor judgement of some overzealous mall security people?

call in LeFours

reply to post by gimme_some_truth


Thanks GST...its a mistake made a lot by those wanting to point fingers at the cops. Where it sucks for the old man is the security gues placed him under arrest....had they called the cops BEFORE doing so, the cops could have taken him off the property and sent him home with no charge of trespassing.

And yes, you have to read the entire article....

I feel bad for the old guy....he did what so many will not do. Like I said, I wish the security guys would of just called the cops to have THEM remove him and decide to charge/not charge...

Originally posted by RuneSpider
To me, this seems a lot like when you have peole complain about a email they get sent, or a comic posted on a buliten board, that offends them for some reason. you can be fired for these, if you posted them, becuase the company fears a lawsuit. The man was asked politly to change his shirt, instead of doing so, he refused and created a spectacle of himself. The security officers were doing their jobs, it's the people who were offended and had him kicked out.
Oh, and another elitist used the term "sheeple" without actually considering the circumstaces of the occurence. Yeesh.

I used the word sheeple, but i hope you arent insinuating that i am an elitist, because im far from it. When i used the word, i used it in reference to w/e mindless zombies were offended by this mans shirt and compelled to complain to security about it.I just cannot understand why some people cannot just let anybody express themselves without having to let everybody in the world know that they think its wrong, or offensive, or they just dont agree!!! As if they themselves would never do anything offensive or wrong to anyone else.

And i can understand removing him from the property, but its the fact that they arrested him that i think is completely wrong. In a perfect world he wouldnt of even had to leave, but hey...i dont live in fantasy land, unfortunately.

[edit on 30-3-2008 by SilentBob86]

Originally posted by more_serotonin_pls
NWO -

Who will stand up for anything anymore?
Who will be counted as saying 'I disagree?'

Who will stand by their beliefs?
Who will stand for their morals?

Who stand up and say...
NO?

Fewer and fewer, I believe and it is sad, sad, sad.

Not me brother. I WILL DIE for my freedom. How bout you all? Let's stop talking and start acting.

I have already had words with some cops here in DC (actually just some "triangle" cops) where the big fat ass cop was giving this woman a hard time.

Sorry to be disruptive and such...but I feel our laissez faire attitude is what is wrong.

Edited because of T&C's

[edit on 3/31/2008 by Griff]

reply to post by SilentBob86


People have a right to complain about someththing that makes them feel uncomfortable. The old fellow could have continued his demonstratinno without offending people's sensibilities simply be changing shirts. Instead he caused a spectacle which hasn't solved anything.
For that matter, how do you know it was the facts that caused people discomfort? It could have been someone who new the facts, but disliked the ways that the fellow presented them on the shirt. Fact is, we don't know who called it in, or why, beyond the fact that it made them uncomfortable. If the fellow had cooperated, instead of raising a scene, he could have complied and continued his protest.
Instead debating about wether or not his rights were infringed, we could have been applauding a fellow for making a peaceful demonstration that followed the law.
Sheeple is a elitist term, regardless of what you claim. You are remov