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Chakra Meditation

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posted on Jul, 2 2008 @ 01:09 PM
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reply to post by headlightone
 


I know I've looked into all the mind control stuff and MK Ultra's "research" and from what I can tell and what others have said is that once you're aware of it, and something else is resonating stronger, you'll naturally sync to that more then a blanket signal. 2nd there's really no evidence HAARP has been used as I don't think anyone save for those who've worked on it know what to look for anyways. If they are using it right now, that shows how relatively weak it's mind control function is then doesn't it?
Most subliminals are sent over tv and radio, so if you can tune out the chatter-box from time to time, and know you are responsible for you, everything should be cool
Thanks for your words of concern though as one should be aware of what they are getting into for sure.




posted on Jul, 2 2008 @ 01:42 PM
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Originally posted by headlightone
Just a point that needs noting .Dont stop meditating because its the right
thing to do.
Just be aware once the chakras have been opened and the endocrine
system is in full flow their will always be a flipside.
Its probably been mentioned earlier in the thread that if your not strong
enough or aware an open internal invitation has been posted.
I agree in the coming times you must strive for a spiritual connection with
yourself and others.Just be carefull!
Below is a link that perhaps tells of what else can happen.
Mind control is a definite possibility .

www.freedomdomain.com...


Yes I think you have a point here, the thing to do is work out each intentions, if their good you'll know.

I dont watch tv anymore as I do believe its got hidden frequencies in it but I do still listen to the radio as I love music. Is some one sending hidden messages that can penetrate our chakras, well possibly who knows. There are so many hidden agendas out there anything can happen.

Radiate unconditional love thats what I say, zap them with that. Pure love and light are all we need and that I believe 1000 %



posted on Jul, 2 2008 @ 02:16 PM
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reply to post by Mr Green
 


Thats funny that because I only watch TV if I am at a friends and there watching it. I would if The Fast Show came back on



posted on Jul, 2 2008 @ 02:39 PM
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reply to post by Mr Green
 


Yeah pretty much, and if you know you're stronger then those signals, by all means watch Good Morning LA on FOX and laugh at the babbling-heads while they try to pound their ideals of reality into unsuspecting people's heads. Once you're above their suggestive-ways, you just are, so there really isn't anything to fear. I just find it gets obscenely annoying watching too much regularly programed TV or Radio. Especially the radio with it's 1 hour looping play lists on every station....Seriously Smells Like Teen Spirit has never left hourly rotation since 1992, wtf!?



posted on Jul, 2 2008 @ 03:50 PM
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Originally posted by psycho81
reply to post by Mr Green
 


Thats funny that because I only watch TV if I am at a friends and there watching it. I would if The Fast Show came back on



Yes great show, Id watch that too!
Interesting skakesbeer says once you realize about the mood control and your above it its dont effect you... still not going to watch TV though.



posted on Jul, 2 2008 @ 04:03 PM
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Hey guys, I am really glad to see this thread thrive, good job guys, keep it up!


I really need to get myself into a daily meditative habit. I really want to do it, its just hard to be motivated or in the right mood to do it. I am new to it all and have lots to explore and lots to learn. My goal is to be able raise my vibrational level and to do oobe. I want to be able to go out of body to learn and explore and help humanity, if not humanity at least my loved ones.

I am sorry, I have not read the whole thread, what is the absolute best guide that I can read online and or techniques that I can do while I am at work. Thank you all for your efforts.



posted on Jul, 2 2008 @ 05:10 PM
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Originally posted by housegroove23
My goal is to be able raise my vibrational level and to do oobe. I want to be able to go out of body to learn and explore and help humanity, if not humanity at least my loved ones.

I am sorry, I have not read the whole thread, what is the absolute best guide that I can read online and or techniques that I can do while I am at work. Thank you all for your efforts.


Well when I first started meditation I reckon I was a little too sensative to it and all sorts of wierd stuff went on with me including 2 OBE s. Like I had a massive influx of different vibrational energies like you seek, and it sent me over the edge lol

I dont get OBE s now as all these energies have settled down in me.



posted on Jul, 2 2008 @ 05:32 PM
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Originally posted by housegroove23
Hey guys, I am really glad to see this thread thrive, good job guys, keep it up!


I really need to get myself into a daily meditative habit. I really want to do it, its just hard to be motivated or in the right mood to do it.


This reminds me of what that monk guy was talking about.
Basically... Meditation is much easier to be "motivated" to do if you're balanced.

Do this... close your eyes... focus on your thinking... what do you FEEL like doing, and is there anything you don't feel like doing? When I'm balanced, I find that theres nothing I wont' do, and at the same time, theres nothing I feel totally inclined to do to the point it distracts me.

But thats the thing... getting balanced is a meditation sometimes in itself.

I've been where you are, we all have. And you sound like everyone else who's gone on to be a serious meditator, which i think is good.
Really ask yourself why you should be motivated... and then if your able to sit still and try... then start with the basics.... think of all distracting thoughts... create a box in your mind or something, and put those things in the box, and then toss it away and tell yourself basically... i don't need to think about this stuff right now, its un-necessarily distracting.

Sounds kind of silly and at first you don't really see the point, but its werd how our thinking words. Do what you can to convince yourself essentially... put aside distracting thoughts... then just focus on relaxings, and breathing... be comfortable, don't even expect anything to happen, just relax (without falling asleep!)... and focus on your breathes, counting etc... At first I know my mind was out of control but it didnt take long for it to calm right down... after like 15 minutes, maybe more, maybe even less.. you'll realise, you are relaxed and a little more motivated to try something small.

If you can relax, thats the first step, silencing your mind of distracting thoughts, that is gradual, and you get better at it.. I find the more you convince yourself you don't want it, the easier it is to automatically dismiss without really thinking about it. Just relax, focus on your breathes, then maybe focus on an object, this serves to kind of guide your meditation direction but i wouldn't worry about that if you know what you want to meditate on... but also focusing on a specific thing helps to well... focus...

say your thinking of a green ball in your mind... just see it in your mind, even say to yourself...green ball... earth... whatever... and if another thought comes in like random "bicycle" and you're like whaaat? just ignore it, keep thinking on your focus object.

This was very effective for me in the beggining.. I found that after like, it must have been an hour... all i was thinking about was the object, with little distraction... and then I was able to discard the thought of the object, and have a focused mind.

But if you can balance yourself, your chakras... it makes it MUCH easier.


Another simple word of advice.. comming from the monk guy actually and I agree with it. Theres very simple things you can do... like take a shower, then meditate... the shower will have you a little relaxed, it makes it easier.

Feel free to ask questions, i'll tell you what I've learned. I've been there man... I remember once, I meditated like twice.. 3 times in one year, and didnt really do anything... ha.. i even bought a book like a begginners guide to really wonder what meditation was... i didn't understand..

but I'll also say this though... your meditation is your own, and try not to go into it with expectations.



posted on Jul, 2 2008 @ 05:45 PM
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I wanted to comment on a bit of what was said about frequencies, and dangers of things once your chakras are open and such and well i'll just say a few things that i've experienced / learned.

TV really is ####!! ha. What I mean to say is.. even if you make yourself not receptive to the information, the stuff like screen refresh rate or frequency of which it functions does enough.. I've figured it out... you just can't look away from this thing, you feel.. well i'll watch it some more, whatever... if you just resist and turn it off you're like wow.. i don't feel like watching it anymore! Its the frequency man...either the visual refresh rate or the high pitch ringing, i know it! Its to suck you in.

Do whatever you can do get your thinking frequency to an almost meditative level.. What I mean to say is.. don't get sucked into the physical... realise your in it... make the best of it.. utilize it, learn from it and pay attention and resist the urge to stare at televisions if theres nothing there you wanna see... listen to music if its not what you want to hear... listen to people talk if you don't like what they're saying.. I'm not saying ignore the world around you.. I'm saying the oppositve... be mindful of whats comming at you, and filter out the helpful from the..."resistance"


As my chakras have opened, I believe it has opened me up to a new playground but... as long as you are confident in your understanding of the "rules" i think you'll do fine. What I mean to say is... you have total will over your life.. if anyone takes advantage of it its because we just havenet made that will strong enough, but what I mean to really say is.. it seems to have somewhat of an authority.

I'm not sure i explained that well... but, recently I was aware on an attack or violation of some kind and it was kind of annoying, but I didn't feel threatened, because I did not wish it to do what it was doing, and so I had a pleasant sleep.
.. you know what I mean though?

I wanna say more but time is limited, i'm trying to fly through all the posts.



posted on Jul, 2 2008 @ 06:04 PM
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Oh man, i'm too hungry to write, but i'll try! I just wanna get it over with..

Something I learned the other day... I was trying to expand my understanding of frequency and planes of existence or reality we'll say... and how it all wraps together..

LOVE IS IMPORTANT.. but its not as easy as just feeling love in that moment, well if you can make that moment last then yeah.. but what I mean is.. these moments usually fade unless we understand that love.. so it becomes a permanent frequency or thinking. Or somewhat permanent, hesitant to use absolutes... What i mean to say is... after a certain amount of time, you may have realised that even in your lowest moments, you still have more love and positivity then you used to. It could just be very simple because you realised how silly it was before to not love..

But anyways I'll get back into that.

I've noticed when astral projecting that 2 entities seemed to fade as i got closer to my body, and became more visible when i got further out.. I then talked to a freind who said when during sleep paralysis, the room was the same, but slightly different... and thinking about what i've read about Astral Projection.. I had come to the realisation that there is a place, or frequency that is close to our physical reality because we will it be so, but i'll get into that in a bit..

I was thinking about ghosts, and why they would appear opaque or translucent, or fade in and out... and I was thinking... it just must be one of 2 things.. the fading is because they are sort of close to my frequency but not in their usual one... and rather... they are more visible the closer they get to mine... but also.. it could be that they are passing through some sort of pocket or rift where frequencies converge...

I was thinking about this when comparing it to the amount of ghost sightings around energy points / vortexes.. etc.. I was thinking how its just easier to see them there because of the convergence with our frequency, or close to it.

And again, what does this have to do with anything? Well I was thinking about "abilities"... and I'm thinking this... any kind of developement, I see more as like just a basic practise.. a refinement of a skill... its just like doing pushups or practising an instrument... what you do will affect how you do it on all frequencies.. you're just getting better at it... but more then that... you already have that ability, its just a matter of activating it... not learning it.. but it deffinately helps! Well it could be completely relevant as I will explain...


as you raise your frequency (through love..and being aware of and understanding that love etc... and we'll assume love does not have a fixed frequency but rather it is a control of frequency... like more understanding of love = a higher frequency, whereas we are working against resisting frequencies like fear simultaneously..slowing it down so to speak..)... but what I mean to say is.... if the astral plane, or any other one for that matter, is simply a different frequency,... and how in dreams we have more control, there is less liabilities.... you see where i'm going?

Its a simple matter of increasing your frequency... your physical world becomes more like a dream world the further you go, in the sense that... if it has a similar frequency to one of these planes, then the rules or lack or rules must be the same. Its like... being in your own bubble of high frequency but yet, you can still dwell on another... how I am trying to say this... if it werent for this... people would begin to fade if they raised their frequency... They can dwell where they wish, but their own personal frequency is what determines many factors I believe.

What i'm trying to say is.... raise your frequency... the "abilities" will come with just doing that, and being aware of them as they come... just like a dream.. it would require less energy to manifest things for example. So its not so much a skill thing.. as I can manifest in astral without concentrating until I pass out.. you use are less limited.. with your frequency, you have more energy, or you burn less so to speak.

Raise your frequency, and its as simple as that... you enter different playgrounds... we've been led to believe this reality is anything but a dream, when really the 2 seem so much similar. This place really does seem like an illusion, its just a matter of taking it to the next level.

I think i made my point but if anythings unclear I can elaborate more...

Just love.. its so simple!



posted on Jul, 2 2008 @ 07:21 PM
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reply to post by CavemanDD
 


Thank you very much CavemanDD for sharing your knowledge and experiences. You put it in a way that makes sense to me. I have been very balanced before, its just that I need to learn how to train myself to be like that on a daily basis. I have been especially dealing with a lot of emotions lately, including anger. Anger and sadness are a tough one to deal with right now because I am trying to awaken my wife and friends and family and anyone close too me, to the truth of whats going on around them. They will not listen and they will not see and they do not care.

That gets me very angry.......angry with them because they will not see and do not care, angry at other people in general, because the majority is ignorant too, and especially angry at the powers that be and those in control for causing all of this. Then I get sad and get depressed and want to give up because I have no one close to me that can relate and talk too.

After feeling like this for a while now I have came to the conclusion that I need to not concentrate on them but I need to concentrate on myself. I know that now and I am still trying to let go of those feelings and emotions. Its really hard to do, to let go of these emotions, as I type this up I feel like crying and screaming in anger at the same time.

What you said CavemanDD makes a lot of sense and I think that I need to just make it simple and tell myself that I dont need to be feeling like this or thinking like this and clear my mind.

Also thank you for everything else that you have been sharing, I have enjoyed reading your thoughts.



posted on Jul, 2 2008 @ 08:08 PM
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reply to post by housegroove23
 


Np, glad I could help. I try to explain things down to simple terms. Trying to learn about meditation and such at first can be tough cuz its so poetic and you just get nothing out of it when your a beginner.


Something I meant to say or didnt imply right...

I mean for meditation... yes put the distracting thinking aside BUT...

know this... it can come back... your just removing it temporarily, and based on what you said i'll say this... don't ignore your problematic thinking... i've tried that, with much energy... and again it comes back down to balance...

think of it all as electricity.... and say... your super lazy (no energy)... so you have no motivation for difficult things (difficulty = resistance = more energy required then you have).... When you are motivated... you take on bigger challeneges because motivation = ENERGY!.. And say this lazy person doesnt wanna do nothing, but he'll still do simple things he knows how to do, and he does them why? Because he's been doing it for so long, he knows it so well that theres little to no resistance, that it requires less energy...


what i'm really trying to say here is... the more you understand problematic thinking, the less effect it has on inbalancing you... you can block things out, but that doesnt fix them.. through meditation, you can really get to the guts of the problematic thinking and fix it, not ignore it.. but transform it.

I'll tell you what i'm going to meditate on next. 1. My job because of situations and my happyness, but that aside... 2. Emotional stability... i know i've been disregarding it for too long... I need to figure out my emotions so I can get the best of them.. I figure... it must also be why i sometimes dont look out for other peoples emotions... i still love them, thats different, but i dont take enough care with simple little emotions because i don't really understand them myself..

its like how you can you expect to love someone if you can't love yourself? You gotta have something to give it away... if you dont feel love, how do you radiate love?

If you ignore your problematic thinking, it will dwell in your subconcious mind and bite you in the ass throughout your life until you address it... it took a wise woman to show me that.. (its even in my birth chart as a signifigant event interestingly enough)... that basically i've been dragging useless confidence problems with me from like childhood and perhaps before that... for some reason i was just inclined to think i would fail at things, when really there was nothing to really make me think that..

think of like your mind in layers, and the deeper it goes, the more guts of your thinking is really there.... like we'll say... way beyond the unconcious is your mind that knows it is connected to everything in the universe or something to that degree, until it goes down becomming increasingly simpler until we're left with the "concious mind"... which we just think is our mind... it is but a fragment. I think of the subconcious as kind of like whispering to the concious mind what to think, it holds all these feelings and past experiences we can't even really remember. Again I think it goes deeper and deeper.

By addressing and understanding the problematic thinking, it has less "damaging" effects on us.
But until you are ready to deal with something... filtration or deflection is a good temporary fix if you feel its all you can do, so by all means.

But I find, i am still wrestling with things i just simply havent really addressed yet.

But something i'll tell you about how I've changed... before meditation... i used to wake up, and by the time i've been at work for 30 minutes... i was pissed off... now i'm just always happy, simple as that... am i dillusional? Or did I realise that I was getting mad for no reason and i understood those reasons and observe them differently?


I'll also say something interesting i heard today from this swami guy, this spiritual guru type.. dead now but he was a wise old man, and he had audio recordings i listen to...

Ok so heres the simulation;... your swimming in a pond, on the surface, and that is your reality, that is what you observe as your reality... and lets say you see these lily pads, and perhaps they are problematic thinking... they are discreet entities or seperate things that affect your thinking negatively... well then you decide to swim under the water.. and you see that the lilypads are all inter-connected, and that really, its like a vibration, like a radio wave, it really has no begginning or end or seperation.. your one problem area, is all your problem areas, its like the same wave being sent at you, you're just deflecting one aspect.


You see what hes saying? Theres always gunna be more of these problem areas, but I think you just have to keep working away at them until they stop affecting you so undesireably... picture yourself as a wave moving one way, and this opposing wave is slowing you down.. well maybe you cant really get rid of this other wave, but you can make your wave stronger, you can push the other wave. But what I mean to really say is, you know, its just like riding a wave of energy, you just gotta keep dodging the obstacles, but you have to learn from them so you can avoid future obstacles of the same kind.

Address your problematic thinking, and you will gain more and more control of your life, it will seem more and more like its a matter of wisdom and the strength of your will.

I had something else to say but i can't remember, damn.


Another thing i'll throw in, i love this since i heard this from that guy...

observe your thinking... not your thoughts... because thoughts or language / internal dialogue of any kind are static.. language is artificial.. it is not your thinking... your thinking doesnt have a state either, it is dynamic, and it is not bound to an artificial language...

think about this... you're trying to explain something to someone and your like "ahh i can't think about what i'm trying to say"... is it so that you are having trouble thinking, or is it that your having trouble constructing the sentences / forming the explanation?

For your internal dialogue is not your thinking.. its just a means to express in a small way, our thinking, when really our thinking is much more.. it is the intention behind the words.. what you really MEAN when you say them, not how you say them. Its the underlying thinking..

So when you think about how you get angry at people... think... is it hateful words in my mind, am i telling myself in language that i am angry, or am i focussing on the wordless internal knowing that I have this unstable, unpleasant feeling you could classify as anger... or perhaps... ego? Desire to put our perspective on others? Or a feeling of a resistance because we desire to help, and it is difficult, it is stressful.. you'll have to analyze that for yourself. But what i'm trying to get at is.. you gotta get to the source it seems, and really find the nature of the thinking to understand these problems.




Feel free to ask anything else, i'm here to help.



posted on Jul, 3 2008 @ 05:45 AM
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OK,
Im going to start this today and have a feeling that I will be banging my head against a wall in the first 20 minutes....I know i shouldnt....I really want to do this and for it to work but have very little patience....this is one of my many problems and I hope to resolve it by making it work.....bit of a catch 22 i think...

Anyway, I would like to thank psycho81 for bringing this to light and hopefully changing some negative parts of me, thanks to Caveman for telling it how it is and also housegroove as I think that I would have written the exact same things as he did.....

Also, has anyone ever opened all 7 chakras and what did you feel....what happens when you open the first one and then move on the next.....how do you know its open etc....when one is open and you focus on the next one, does the one you opened first close....

Sorry for being an absolute beginner....it must be quite easy for the experienced but I just need to ask a few questions to get a better understanding...

All the best..


[edit on 3/7/2008 by booda]



posted on Jul, 3 2008 @ 05:55 AM
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reply to post by royalkingmeaux
 


this happened to me once.....I was experimenting with a bong....I inhaled a big amount of it and started tripping......I remember going back to my room absolutley whacked and then started tripping really badly when I felt a pressure holding me down...i then saw what I could only describe as the devil holding me down and trying to rip my soul out of my body....that was one scary experience....guess what....Ive never done a bong since and that was 13 yrs ago......



posted on Jul, 3 2008 @ 01:04 PM
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reply to post by booda
 


One simple way to guage your chakras.. Just ask yourself, what do you feel like doing? And is there anything you don't feel like doing?

Do you feel like doing something physical over anything else? That would incline your 1st chakra is the most open I believe. And it has degrees... like you feel like doing something so active to point of recklessness.. Theres opening your chakras, but they can also be over-active, and under-active / closed.. I don't like to think of them like open and shut. I just like to think of it like an output or level

Ok acutally hold on, let me find a link, we'll run down all the chakras...

chakra image link
Here's a simple enough chart.

Ok well I'll try to sum it up... if they are all open then, there probably isn't anything you don't really feel like doing.. i mean beyond preference, or as i would call it (the most active chakra).. this is to do with things you don't feel like doing/feeling/thinking just because you don't want to.

I think the things we do throughout the day are indicator of the most active chakras.. right now from what i'm doing, my throat chakra is the most open... if I keep this up, it might be to the point where I won't feel like doing anything else.
.. A good indicator of over-active throat chakra is... you talk a lot, but find it difficult to listen. Under-active I think is pretty much the opposite... you just kinda listen, maybe not even that? but don't feel like really talking. Over prolonged periods this can actually develope on our physical body as well... Some people lose their voice for example. I think all illness can be explained this way... but i mean.. when a lab genetically synthesises a viruses, then i mean.. the odds do seem against you..
.. but i mean, thats a condensed intelligent form of negative energy. I don't really want to divert off topic though but we did talk about physical energy and its relation to chakra a few pages back if you're interested.

But yeah... we'll say this... if you are relatively balanced, or your chakras are all active but not too over-active.. 1. You'll feel able to do ANYTHING.. 2. You won't have distracting thoughts like say when you're at work and just thinking about what you're going to do at home.. 3. You'll just feel... fine as hell.
Its a whole new level of function, and in a way, it might shock you at first because we seem to think like, laziness or something like that is a unique part of our individual being.
.. ha. What i'm saying is, you'll feel like a different person maybe. I sure as hell did.. but in a damn good way.

I don't know what else to really say without going into it with great depth... so perhaps if you have a question, i'd gladly tell you what I think.. like if theres a chakra you think you're having trouble with, like perhaps confidence or communication isn't really your most active trait.. And I could explain to you what I know with my own experience.

Anyways, hope this was of some help.


[edit on 3-7-2008 by CavemanDD]



posted on Jul, 3 2008 @ 01:24 PM
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Hey caveman thanks for sharing that great advice there, I have some PC probs at the moment. This is my 4th windows install after getting a virus, things seem ok now and I am just getting all the basic things I need back on my PC.

housegroove23 and Booda welcome to the thread and nice to hear you input. As I said before this thread would be nothing without the great people I have met on my journey.

housegroove23 I know what you mean about the Anger feeling, something I have been going through myself. I guess I have had problems clearning my mind (Hehe I blame Windows XP)

Once again thanks caveman for that great advice.

Anyway off I go again installing more crap on my PC



posted on Jul, 3 2008 @ 01:36 PM
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reply to post by psycho81
 


hey dude, good to hear from ya. I seriously recommend getting a second drive, they are quite inexpensive these days. I learned my lesson when I had to format my drive.. thats the only way to really kill the virus if you've had to reinstall like 4 times..

I mean theres a repair install, but theres a certain way you're supposed to do that, look for an online guide...

but serious, just wipe the drive, do a full format and install. And if you have a second drive, put all the things you don't wanna lose on there.. your only formatting the drive windows and system files were on so your hard drive should be fine. That way, formatting and re-installing windows isn't much of a big deal really.

Viruses are brutal though.. theres so many kinds... trojans / spyware/ malware etc. and whats annoying is you need 2 different programs to find them... like maybe you get rid of a virus but its actually spyware installing more and more viruses. I never take care of my virus problem unless I see a visible problem.. for all I know there could be hundreds in here..

get spybot search and destroy.. its free.. gets rid of spyware.. As for an anti-virus program, i'm not sure, but so far it seems the commercial ones seem to be the best because you need to update it constantly...

if you killed virus C.23a... tommorow its just C.23b.. its pretty brutal.. I know microsoft and all these corporations are in on it.. so you keep buying un-needed software and new computers. We must get wise to what's going on and protect the computer
. But yeah.. Good luck with that dude.



posted on Jul, 3 2008 @ 03:34 PM
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Thank you booda & psycho81 for your input, its nice to know that I am not the only one feeling like this. Thank you again CavemanDD for sharing your awesome input and thoughts, I will have more questions later.

Just remember psycho81, there are a lot of IT specialists on here including me. It sounds like for the most part you have it handled, but if you get stuck on something, please feel free to ask for help. I agree with what CavemanDD said except I would say that it would be even better to back up your data onto DVD. A backup drive is still a moving part and will wear out and die eventually, where as a DVD, if kept in a safe place should last decades.

Sorry for going off topic here but CavemanDD, you are again correct. Two main reasons that virus/spyware are still around terrorizing people is to collect data and put money into pockets of large corporations.

Lately I have found "Spyware Doctor" to be a good program to use to get rid of some of those nasty ones.



posted on Jul, 3 2008 @ 03:36 PM
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Yea lol had to start from scratch, most of my files lost. The ones I really did need like my dream journal and meditation diary's I kept on a USB Flash drive.

I think the main problem was using it as a gaming PC. So now I got an Xbox 360 for gaming and PC for net



posted on Jul, 4 2008 @ 08:10 AM
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reply to post by psycho81
 


We'll have to have a game on the xbox360 sometime.....you can meditate with the belief of beating me ...and you'll probably win anyway....



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