Gay California student's slaying sparks outcry

Originally posted by Lucid LunacyThis kid got shot because someone wasn't raised properly and had access to a gun. Period.

You're puting blame on the victim by saying that, and you shouldn't in this case.

I am not blaming the victime, i am saying there is more to this than meets the eye. Sure the people that the child got the from may be at fault, maybe even the teachers are to blame not having the foresight to deal with such an obvious problem going on within the school.

Originally posted by Lucid Lunacy

Originally posted by SilentShadow
I guess a question to ask would be whether or not a bullied student can in turn be a bully, as a teacher i can definitely say yes they can.

Not sure if I am following your question exactly. Can you paraphrase?

Rhetorical question.

Originally posted by Lucid Lunacy
So what's your suggestion? Kids should just take all the bullying they can get and never verbally stand up to the bullies cuz it might hurt the bullies feelings? I am not following.

Clearly you missed the very sentence which I stated:

Originally posted by SilentShadowI do think this student took it too far when students are taught to (verbally) stand up to bullies.

There is a difference between standing up for yourself and bullying back.

Originally posted by Lucid Lunacy

Originally posted by SilentShadowWhy does anything involving minorities turn into hate crimes?

That's a good question. Why is that? I dunno. That's the nature of hate crimes usually... they target minorities..

You flipped my comment incorrectly, please re-read it. I stated that just because a minority is involved, why does it automatically become a hate crime, why can't the fact the student was gay be left out of it.

Originally posted by Lucid Lunacy
If the kids felt uncomfortable with this kids 'retaliation' to their bullying, then there was plenty of other ways to deal with it, other then shooting him dead.

Absolutely there was, however, you name some.

See the big problem with this is, if one child is being bullied, how do they know that the line is crossed from standing up for themselves to bullying back?

I guess I just always had a different way to deal with bullies when I was a kid. Publically defeat them, and they go away. and no, I' not talking that PC tell them to go away and turn around howing you are not scared, I'm talking a nice left cross to let them know not everyone is gonna take it.

Back in the day they would have just dragged him out back and beaten him up...

flirting on straight males is a seriously disrespectful thing... the kid could have gotten his head smashed in.

UNfortunately this is modern times and kids are too cowardly to throw a punch - so they shot him in the back of the head.

Think about it - the kid could have gotten his ass beat for being gay and flaunting it - and Americans would have flipped out. But he would have deserved it for antagonizing and flirting on others.

However because we are so politically correct, instead of getting a beat-down, we end up on the extreme end - a shooting.

Blame political correctness for this. If it were still acceptable to beat a person up for being a douchebag, this never would have happened.

[edit on 30-3-2008 by NewWorldOver]

I think the point here is that the gay kid probably wouldn't have been killed had he not been gay. It's not exactly a smart thing to dress in high heels and makeup and flirt with straight guys, but hell he WAS being harassed and the school didn't stop it. What was King supposed to do? Beat up a whole flock of guys? Whatever he did may not have been prudent but he didn't deserve to be killed, that's just way over the line and very wrong. I do think this qualifies as a hate crime.

Here's my favorite part:
"If King had flirted with the other boy, "that can be very threatening to someone's ego and their sense of identity," said Jaana Juvonen, a psychology professor at the University of California, Los Angeles."

Hey, how about the fact that the kids were making fun of King, like, that's not threatening?? The guy was killed, and we're supposed to be sorry that someone's ego might have been wounded? Oh please....

Originally posted by forestlady
I think the point here is that the gay kid probably wouldn't have been killed had he not been gay.

That, and a combination of his behavior. He wasn't just 'gay' he was flaming and he enjoyed making people feel awkward... now we already had a gay member agree that behaving like that is just asking for trouble.

He didn't deserve to get shot, he deserved to get beaten up. And not for being gay either, for being a douchebag and purposefully creating a spectacle of himself in order to antagonize others.... normally such things lead to a beating. But a shooting? Definitely over the line.

McInerney was jailed on $770,000 bail on an adult murder charge that could put him behind bars for life.

Good it appears others agree with me that this wasn't the fault of the victim, and that he 'didn't have it coming'. I was starting to die inside based on many of the posts I have read here blaming it on the gay kids flirting... er "sexual harrassment".

another student, Brandon McInerney, 14, shot him twice in the head at the back of the computer lab at their junior high school, police say.

2 shots to to a kid's head, executioner style guys. Listen to what you're saying in this thread.

This gay kid handled things badly, but no less badly then the other kids. He should have dealt with the bullying he was getting much differently. But some of you're are saying things like "at the end of the day it was his fault".

That's sick. You are sick. And it was a sick kid that shot this kid in the back of the head twice.

Why did this happen? Who's fault is it?

The kid that had the gun. The kid that murdered someone. It happened because he had a bad upbringing and a lack of good education on life. And even more ovious, he had access to a firearm.

If King had flirted with the other boy, "that can be very threatening to someone's ego and their sense of identity," said Jaana Juvonen, a psychology professor at the University of California, Los Angeles.

The same thing could be said for the gay kid who was getting bullied over the fact he looked and acted gay! "threatening to the ego and sense of identity". Look at these words, and try and be objective here. It was threatening and confusing for both kids, for the same reasons.

And when the other boys made fun of him, he would boldly tease them right back by flirting with them.

This article seems biased by the choice of wording:

"the other boys made fun of him". Makes it sound so ligt and innocent. But what did they really do and say, and for how long? Be critical. Don't let journalists instill thoughts into your head with their flowery words.

"he would boldly tease them right back by flirting with them". What does bodly even mean here? Did he grab their boy-parts? Or did he just do a dance and bat his eye-lashes. Article doesn't suggest anything really. The article does suggest, the gay boy was teased and bullied, so he teased and bullied in retaliation. That's normal schoolyard social dynamics. Getting shot by a fellow student in the head is not... okay. And it's not the victims fault... not in this case

Police would not discuss McInerney's motive. But the day before the shooting, King told McInerney he liked him, eighth-grader Eduardo Segure told the Ventura County Star.

Okay so King told his murderer the day before he killed him that "he liked him". This again was simply him teasing and bullying back, and nothing more. I am sure they did this back and forth for quite a while.

The School should have intervened long before and done what they could to ease up on their battling. Maybe that meant separating them into different classes. Maybe that meant sitting them down for a talk. Maybe that meant detentions for the bullying. Maybe that meant enforcing the dress code so the gay kid couldn't use that as a means of provoking the other kids to bully him. Don't know, but figuring that out is a part of the schools responsibility.

The answer was not to shoot this kid in the head twice.

People here have drawn the conclusion that King was taking flirting to the extreme of "sexual harassment". If you do that, then why are you not taking the other kids bullying to the extreme of "battery"??

Students at E.O. Green Junior High said the other kids used to taunt King, call him names and throw wet paper towels at him in the boys' restroom,

and he would bravely fire back by flirting with them and chasing them.

So we have multiple boys initiating the bullying. Throwing things at Kind and calling him names.

King in response teases them back with flirting because he knew they didn't like it.

First off throwing something at someone is a little more serious then fliritng. God especially something wet from a restroom!!

Chasing them? They provoked it!... maybe they wanted it? Maybe they were bored. I don't know. We have practically nothing to go off of in this article yet many of you are drawing such absolute conclusions. The article doesn't suggest anything remotely close to sexual harrassment, and if it does, then it suggest the other kids are in guilt of "battery". And of course cold-blooded murder.

Check this out, the Superintendent of the school district:

He also said that King was free to wear women's accessories with his uniform of white shirt and dark pants because the dress code prohibits only those items that could be a safety threat, such as steel-toed shoes.

"If girls are wearing jewelry, you can't stop boys from wearing it, too," he said. "Each gender has the right to wear what the other does."

And I agree with this. Some of you don't. Too bad. Change the schools policy then. But don't blame the kids who were indeed following their schools dress code. Perhaps the kids shouldn't have been bullying another kid who was within his rights of the dress code?

[edit on 043131p://30u45 by Lucid Lunacy]

Well wether it was a gay hate crime or not, the National Day of Silence is being held in his memory this year.

Thousands of people die in the US every day. I have two aunts the were killed by a teen driver Wednesday of this past week. Why is a day of silence being held for this one person? Because he was gay? There's no national day of silence for my aunts, what gives? I am in total agreeance that this was an aweful thing to happen. Being a bully didn't make him deserve to die. Being gay did not make him deserve to die. There was no reason for this child to die. Being gay does not make this child's death any more important than anyone else's death either though. Let's not make this kid a martyr. Where were the parents of both children? I think that there need to be some answers from children's parents.

Originally posted by Christian Voice

Thousands of people die in the US every day. I have two aunts the were killed by a teen driver Wednesday of this past week. Why is a day of silence being held for this one person? Because he was gay?

It's not being held for one person

In the other thread where this was talked about. You know the Kerns one?

Remember the statistics?

Need me to post em here?

reply to post by Lucid Lunacy


Yeah I do, what statistics are you talking about?

Starred your post, Lucid.

I don't understand how some people here think it was the kids fault he was shot for being gay. Maybe, just maybe if kids were a little more tolerant this wouldn't have happened.

And why should the victim have to conform to the likings of the other students? What if I were to say the students should have conformed to the likings of the victim? Doesn't sound right does it?

-Will

reply to post by Christian Voice


CV, just a thought, and a note of compassion for your loss, it needs to be noted.

Not to sound in any way detached, but you have a point about the death of your Aunts....any death is a loss, no matter the manner. Just happens that highway/automobile deaths seem to statiscally account for more than many others, including diseases and natural causes....or murders.

Add in the factor of an impaired driver in the statistic, and we see more and more data...and, impaired can mean: Alcohol, drugs or sleep deprivation.

It doesn't lessen the loss, of course, but each event can be used as an educational tool to helpfully diminish future losses.....

Best, WW

Originally posted by Basilis

And why should the victim have to conform to the likings of the other students? What if I were to say the students should have conformed to the likings of the victim? Doesn't sound right does it?

-Will

Thanks for the star and mostly showing some compassion

No it doesn't sound right to me. That intolerance is the root of the negative feelings this kid had. Unfortunately it became hate and manifested through murder. Tolerance and compassion is what he needed, but instead it went unchecked and it escalated into a hate crime. That really sucks. Too young for a kid to die and too young for a kid to goto prison for life. If only he had been given a fair dose of wisdom and compassion then maybe it wouldn't have manifested that way. I dunno.

Also important is that the school district itself said King was well within the dress code and should have been allowed to wear what he wore. The official said since other students were allowed to wear said items, so should have King. It was within the districts policy.

[edit on 053131p://31u47 by Lucid Lunacy]

reply to post by Christian Voice


This NDOS is specifically being held for all Gay/Bi/Transgenders because there are many that are persecuted at school for their orientation and expression. They feel unsafe. And the stats show why.



National Day of Silence
GLEN - stats source

“This study clearly illustrates the prevalence of bullying and harassment in America’s schools and that students who experience harassment are more likely to miss classes which can impact a student’s ability to learn,” said Kevin Jennings, Founder and Executive Director of GLSEN.

“It also shows how having anti-harassment policies in schools – particularly those policies that include sexual orientation or gender identity/expression – can be associated with students feeling safer at school.”

Two-thirds (65%) of teens report that they have been verbally or physically harassed or assaulted during the past year because of their perceived or actual appearance, gender, sexual orientation, gender expression, race/ethnicity, disability or religion.
The reason most commonly cited for being harassed frequently is a student’s appearance, as four in ten (39%) teens report that students are frequently harassed for the way they look or their body size.
The next most common reason for frequent harassment is sexual orientation. One-third (33%) of teens report that students are frequently harassed because they are or are perceived to be lesbian, gay or bisexual.

The survey finds that LGBT students are three times as likely as non-LGBT students to say that they do not feel safe at school (22% vs. 7%) and 90% of LGBT students (vs. 62% of non-LGBT teens) have been harassed or assaulted during the past year...

[edit on 053131p://31u11 by Lucid Lunacy]


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[edit on 31-3-2008 by Jbird]

reply to post by Lucid Lunacy


What's your point with all this ? You are saying that "homosexuals" get harrassed at school and picked on. Big deal. They are kids. I got beat up in school quite a bit because my parents were poor and I had to wear off brand clothes and rode in an ugly beat up car. Kids are gonna be kids. When a baby starts to touch everything he sees, do you move everything and put up everything you own, or do you teach him not to touch everything? The homosexual sympathisers piss and moan wanting the world to change and be "tolerant". Why not teach the homosexuals how to take it. The world is a hard place and the need to be able to deal with ridicule. Kids are gonna be kids, and picking and ridicule are a part of it. Of course we should teach them not to pick and ridicule, but the ones that stand out need to learn to deal. Again, don't make this kid a martyr.

more than teaching kids to "Take it" or "Deal with it" we need to teach them to stand up for themselves. Christian Voice, I, like yourself, came from a poor family wearing bad hand me downs, and not having the nicest car. What did I do when bullied? I stood up to them, I learned to put them in their place, and did it publicly. Again, when everyone sees said bully being stood up to, he looses power. Why? because everyone that sees it happen gets on your side. The bigger problem here is that bullies these days no longer settle their desputes with their fists, they bring guns. Bullies these days are even wusier than they were not so long ago when I was still in school. Not even ten years ago when someone decided to make me their target of ridicule I would stand up to them, put them down verbally, and then physically if the situation called for it. Kids these days just go for the quickest route to ending their problems. When I would beat a bully down, their pride and their body hurt, but no one got killed. We, as a society, need to instill these things into our kids. The parents of the bully should have raised him better, taught him you don't shoot your perceived enemies. Often times, when you defeat a bully you make a friend. They have the pack mentality that the strongest will rule. Prove you are stronger, and they will more than likely follow you.

Originally posted by Christian Voice

What's your point with all this ?

My point? I asked if you wanted to see the stats and you said yes, put them in the thread. And so I did.

You are saying that "homosexuals" get harrassed at school and picked on.

No. This isn't one voice. And it wasn't my voice.

These stats reflect the voice of thousands of gay/bi/transgener students.

Big deal. They are kids.

It's a very big deal when it disrupts their education. It's a very big deal when many of them have to skip school out of fear. It's a very big deal when a kid gets shot in the head twice.

I got beat up in school quite a bit because my parents were poor and I had to wear off brand clothes and rode in an ugly beat up car.

That sucks. If there is a pandemic of this kind of abuse nation-wide then I also think there should be a similar raising awareness day for that! For tolerance on poverty, etc.

The homosexual sympathisers piss and moan wanting the world to change and be "tolerant".

Your choice of words are always in bad taste arn't they.

Why is it pissing and moaning when the facts are clearly showing that thousands of kids are teased and bullied on a regular basis because of their oreintation. The facts show it disrupts their education. LGBTs have an equal right to a proper education. That is being affected, and that is why they are wanting to raise awareness.

It was veyr much established in another thread that you think homosexuals are immoral and sinfull simply because they are homosexual, so I don't expect you to understand why I and others feel compassionate about this. It was established you believe there is a 'radical homosexual agenda' where homosexuals are trying to convert children into gays, etc. *please don't ask me to qoute you, I will, but it would take up a few pages*

Why not teach the homosexuals how to take it.

How to take what? Shots to the head?

They shouldn't have to 'take it' with alot of what's going on at a nation-wide level. Kids, all kids, should have equal rights to learn in a safe productive environment. And that's not really the case is it. Hence this awareness day.

The world is a hard place and the need to be able to deal with ridicule.

The stats clearly show they also feel threatened for their saftey to the point of feeling they had to skip school days.

Kids are gonna be kids, and picking and ridicule are a part of it. Of course we should teach them not to pick and ridicule,

... of course... that is exactly what this awareness day is all about.

but the ones that stand out need to learn to deal.

What does that mean? The ones that are 'especially gay' need an example made of them?..

Again, don't make this kid a martyr.

How was I doing that?

Don't stress, Jesus doesn't need to be worried here.

[edit on 043131p://31u29 by Lucid Lunacy]

Have I missed something?

This is about a violent gun crime....and it seems it's come to whether we react to, or how we react to bullying?

I know, I was one who brought it up...that it wouldn't be a discussion if the victim had been some other 'minority', for instance, and I won't bring up the 'for instance', I'll leave it to the imagination.

Now that I've said that, WHY would a 'flamboyant' kid be killed, or I should ask, how is it possible to justify this killing?

There is no justification...and I am afraid this will de-volve into 'blaming the victim' We've seen it happen many times before, seems to be coming true right before our eyes... what a shame.

They shouldn't have to 'take it' with alot of what's going on at a nation-wide level. Kids, all kids, should have equal rights to learn in a safe productive environment. And that's not really the case is it. Hence this awareness day.

They should have to take it. When they go out into public so blatently obsurd they have got to understand and accept that they will be picked on. The world does not have to conform to anyone or anything. If you don't want to be picked on for being gay, don't be gay. It is a choice ya know. It's not like a child that is physicly challenged or lives in poverty. Those are not choices, homosexuality is.

reply to post by Christian Voice


For most homosexuality is not a choice. You are ignorant on this. You say the same christian hate-filled ignorance in all the threads. I am done. Let me know when you gain some wisdom and some compassion.

reply to post by Lucid Lunacy

It is a choice!!! Noone puts a gun to their heads and says BE GAY!!!! They make a decision to be gay. It's bullcrap to say that they can't help it. You mean to tell me that these people honestly cannot help acting on their urges? Pedophiles say the same thing. They say they can't help it. I don't want to hear the crap about consent either. A 16 year old girl is more than capable of giving consent for sex. Is it right? They are both sexual urges. Both consensual. Where does the line get drawn? People are not victims of their urges and hormones and I'm sick of hearing the stupid excuses. People are not born gay. It is not genetic. It is a deficiency of something. Show me one case where a homosexual had a loving Christian home with both parents that were loving and caring and not one overbearing or abusive. You can't. We as humans are not sexual from birth. HomoSEXuality is sexual. We are not sexual beings until puberty. So don't give me the crap of being born gay. Not possible. For every bullcrap study that you show that says we can be born gay, I'll show you 5 that say the opposite. There will always be biased studies. It is human nature to be attracted to the opposite sex. We even have pheromones that attract the opposite sex. Show me one homosexual that says that he or she felt comfortable about their homosexual feelings from day one. You can't. It's not because of ridicule either. It's because it's unnatural. If we were meant to be homosexual then we would have been given a different means of reproducing.