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Interesting Question to Christians....

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posted on Dec, 26 2002 @ 06:39 AM
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Don't you see Thomas Crowne, ANYONE'S KNOWING of the future would mean that NONE of us have Freedom of choice...AT ALL!

I believe a little of the future can be known, because I believe there is a little destiny in us all. But if there were a god that knew what was going to happen to everything tomorrow, and a billion years from now.

Then our lives are like a book to him, and what we perceive as a choice, is nothing but the fixed path that a character in a book takes over and over and over again. In actuality, we probably have very little freedom of choice, when you think of it as our lives are just someone's history. But until we know that someone for sure can see the future, we still have that chance, that just maybe what we do, is our own choice, and not a line in a long book.

Sincerely,
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posted on Dec, 26 2002 @ 08:30 AM
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TC,

If someone knew everything you were going to do before you were born, wouldn't you agree your choice's were already made as far as this all seeing person is concerned?

Now, if, in this all seeing person's eye's, all your choice's have been already made and known, exactley what choice's are you making...if they were already made. And they were already made, since this person already know's them?

Think of you as the all seeing guy, and the person as one of those interactive fiction book's. The main character in that book has a finite set of choice's to make to finnish the story. BUT, if you read straight through, cover to cover without skipping around, you already know those choice's. And if you were truly all seeing, you would know WHICH of those choice's the person will make to finnish the story. Now, if you already knew the choice's that were possible and the choice's that were made, don't you agree, they were already written and made before the choice's were even known to the character?



posted on Dec, 27 2002 @ 12:30 AM
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You still do have free will freemason.

You guys are not understanding here.
God knows what will happen and what we will do, but (we) do not
and wil never know until our (own) choices are made by us.

has god ever told a man what every coices they would make before they ever made it?

God just sees the future, we have the ability to choose what and what not we will do, but god
knows what coming and whats not.

Could you freemason not choose what you want to choose tonight or tomorrow?

You have complete free will, god knows what road you will take but (you) do not, and whatever road you
take is what road (YOU) choose to take, god just sees what road it is.

he wll give you graces to believe but you still (have) free will of choice.

God could make every single appearance to athiest and appear to them to convert them, but does he?

why?

because if he did he would (choose) for them what to believe and they would have (no) faith in their own (choice).

thomas is 100% correct on this one.

peace.



posted on Dec, 27 2002 @ 12:51 AM
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No Truth YOU are wrong. Free will is what leads to unhappiness. We are all bound by fate, what happens happens and can not be changed. THAT is proof there is no free will.

We do not freely make our own choices, because we do not know where those choices will lead us. We choose a door but the path is both guided by our actions, and by uncontrollable events.

I would not go so far to say we have NO free will, but it is by far more limited than we believe. Free will is "Satan's" path, which I don't believe there is one, but it's true. When you make choices of your own, you are carving an unatrual path through the world, and it is rough and undirected, leading to suffering.

When you realize that your free will is limited to a micro scale, and that the big picture is destiny and fate, your world becomes WAY more understandable. I see clearly why what happened to me has gotten me to where I am, and see plainly that those were NONE of the choices I made. If I had my choices, I'd be some soldier somewhere, I'd never have graduated high school early, I'd probably not have been in college. I'd not be a Freemason


There is a lot when you look back on your life, that you realize you never intended. That is fate, that is what is not Free will. That is the flow that we all wade in, and can not leave. It is that flow, that most no longer see, and they bury themselves in harm and suffering because of it.

Too many try to leave the river for the wilds, and meet the mountains. The river has a nice path through, but they are too lost to ever find it.

Free will, is a misconception, only seen by those who do not take apart their own lives, and realize that if they had THEIR way, they'd be no where near where they are today.

Sincerely,
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posted on Dec, 27 2002 @ 06:02 AM
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I see what you guys are talking about, and I can see where y'all are coming from. But just because He knows the future doesn't mean we don't excercise free will. The best way to illustrate that is by looking at a Christian when he sins. If he is a child of God, yet does something that grieves his Father, is that because of his own actions or becuae God made Him do it? Furthermore, blaming sin on the Father is even worse than saying the Devil made me do it, whether you are saved or not.
You have a choice. Just because God knows the future, he knows what choices you will make and what you will do doesn't mean that they weren't your choices. And you all know it. FreeMason says free will leads to unhappiness, and to an extent that is true. If we were true robots, unable to make our own choices, we'd never sin, and there'd be no repercussions to our actions. But would there be any true joy in being a robot? No. We are not resigned to any fate, as far as we know, and any and all of us can change for the better. While it won't be a surprise to God as He's already seen the end of the movie, it'll be a surprise to us. By the way, just because He's seen the movie doesn't mean he altered the ending.



posted on Dec, 27 2002 @ 10:48 AM
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Thomas, how can Jehovah grieve?

According to the Christian Bible, Jehovah knows the future. Therefore, before he created our very distant ancestors, he knew that today I would be writing these words. In fact, he knows what I will be writing ten days from now.

The only way he could grieve is if he did not know the outcome and could not act to change it.



posted on Dec, 27 2002 @ 11:11 AM
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Isnt the future constantly in motion?

Our future is not determined... something we can do this very instant can change the path of our futures forever.

Our Future is never constant, it's always in motion.



posted on Dec, 27 2002 @ 11:40 AM
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Very interesting question! I really like Freemasons view on this one (I thought i would never be caught taking sides with a freemason
). The thing about finding God in everything and ourselves, as a true enlightened being hits home with me. We are the creators of our world. And now i can see how we, as human beings, can become the choas if we choose? so. But i do realize that religion is just an excuse for a harness. Sure it does 'help' to pave a path to peace and happiness, but the underlying message that each contain are selfish of nature to form a control or restraint of us, and a hate or resentment of the other. When in reality, you are my brother and you are my sister, you are all me and i am everybody. We are creators of our lives through our word, and our words are our creation. This thing about freewill is a tricky issue. I think that we have a certain number of paths available to us, that are open at a certain time, and depending on that choice, will define our outcome. So in the end is there a freewill, if all paths are known? Well, you can choose to make no choice but that is a choice in itself....... Okay im gonna stop right here because im just confusing myself now

peace



posted on Dec, 27 2002 @ 12:27 PM
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I kind of thought this might lead to such topics. Thanks for the good reads...


I especially loved the comment "of course only one religion is right". That is, logically, perfectly correct. However, I just don't think we've hammered it out correctly yet. I believe that the basic underlying idea behind all religions started out on the right track, but then got so muddied with individual cultures' rituals and local beliefs and integrations, to where it's now something completely different...

The problem I have with any one religion though, is that, if correct, then the real God (whomever it is) would have to spurn the non-believers, and such a being just isn't worth revering to me. Not that some religions have the vanity issue, where their god only allows believers into the afterlife...but I just don't think we've nailed it yet.

Perhaps the answer really is more simple than it seems, and there really isn't a God of any kind at all? But of course, that argument means that this whole idea of existence is just some kind of fluke, and that just seems innately wrong in our heart of hearts...

I think I'm likely going to just go on marvelling at this amazing Universe, and just wait till the end of the flick and see the credits, and then I'll know the answer...



posted on Dec, 27 2002 @ 01:27 PM
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People,

If someone, something know's everything you are going to do from birth to death, regardless of you knowing or not, then your choice's have already been made.

If god know's I was going to type this... If he saw into the future, and witnessed me type this...Then, I have already typed this. It was already done, and nothing on my part was needed, for I have already done it, as it was already witnessed.



posted on Dec, 27 2002 @ 01:42 PM
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Im not wrong at all, and heres how.

i will not write any more on this, your conscience should tell you your wrong.


You talk about fate and whatever our fate is cannot change?

your wrong.

god says that our fate is (determined) by us and only us.

example....

I used to be a big time sinner, when i (choose) to start giving up these sins and (looking) for god
he revealed himself to me.

Did god make me give up sin?

was it not y own choice and heart?

God knew my heart from the beggining, and i took the road of seeking christ, give up sin, wanting the truth of him.

I could fall at any moment.

we have a teaching in our bible called once saved, you could fall.

"" not all that say lord lord shall enter the kingdom ""


"" work out your salvation with fear and trembling ""


"" i fear that after preaching i myself may fall from the truth and not make it ""


We ((choose)) our own fate.

My brother knows all of this and what miracles ive seen, and he still ((chooses) a life of sin and women.

why?

because he has (freewill).

if you say someone made you believe in freemasonry you are a liar.

You choose to believe in it free mason and you know it.

God has gaven everybody in here chances to believe when i tell you ive seen miracles of this man and all the saints miracles, yet in the
end (you) will have a free (choice)

any person with a working logic and conscinece knows this.

Thats all ill say on this.



posted on Dec, 28 2002 @ 01:00 PM
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Here's another idea I had awhile back, but i repressed it for awhile until it resurfaced now. Now nobody can prove me right or wrong so just listen
Think of life as a semester in school. You go to school to learn a certain subject to make the grade, and after all the tests and assignments, one either passes and moves up a grade, or one has to re-do the grade until lessons are finally learned, then can advance to the next grade. So here's one theory. Before life begins, we know what lessons need to be learned in the human form (to perfect the spirit?) and so we are born into this life as a human being to learn all the lessons that we signed up for before birth. So certain events and people and obstacles must occur, but our choices determines if we make the grade and can finally die (lol), or continue to come back into life until we finally do 'see' the lesson. (Now the re-incarnate haters are gonna rise up against this! hehe) So no right and wrong in this life, only if we learn. So dont take nothing personally, we are only here to love live and learn
peace



posted on Dec, 28 2002 @ 06:58 PM
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4Real, what you've described is the Buddhist and Hindu and Tibetan and Wiccan view of reincarnation.... you're about 3,000 years too late to start a religion around it, but you'll be delighted to know that a lot of other people believe that.



posted on Dec, 28 2002 @ 11:24 PM
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Lol Byrd! Yea i know i juuussst missed it! But after all, it was just a theory of mine, which all religions are really based on. I think that we need to apply some science to religion, then like a scientific theory, why dont we sift out all the things that arent working (all religions have this attribute), until we reach a perfection? I think its possible. Right now, our religions today haven't solved anything and are probably the cause of all the pain and suffering worldwide, and inside, of people. So i guess that leaves the question, what is the true goal of a religion, and what is religion? I need to think about this; im digging pretty deep here....

peace





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