First, let me point out that the reason for posing this question is not to incite flames... I'm curious to hear positions on this only, not looking for a debate...

That said, I'll also state that though I am not a Christian, I did have a Christian upbringing. I am not an Atheist, but I just have my own beliefs that don't "fit" with any "organized" religion.

Here is the scenerio:

A. Man A is just about the nicest guy you could ever meet. He works hard, has raised a few equally wonderful children. He has never caused harm to another, gives to charity, and is just an all-around good guy. He has never even committed one of the Christian "deadly sins". Only one problem...he does not believe in God. He lives in a remote area, that has never even heard of God, and actually has no set religious beliefs.

B. Man B. In his younger days, he was the slimiest criminal you could meet. He finally went to prison for life, for taking an axe to his entire family. However, for the past 15 years, he has "reformed", and accepted Jesus Christ as his savior, yada, yada, yada.

Both men die. According to the Christian faith, who gets into Heaven? Why, man B. of course. So, even though Man A. came as close to ideal as possible, he doesn't get in, based strictly on his beliefs, even though he was never even given the chance, as he's never even heard of God. Does this sound right? Let's even go further and say that Man A has heard of God, he just chose another religion, or maybe was even raised in another religion since birth, so of course believes in it instead.

Just curious on opinions....

You can use real world examples on this:

Jeffrey Dahlmer, who sodomized, killed, and cannibalized young men and boys, was "brought to the Lord" by a minister in the prison a few months before he (Dahlmer) was killed.

Ghandi, who lived one of the most blameless lives of the modern era was not Christian, though he knew and worked with Christians.

There are groups of Christians who believe Mother Teresa is burning in Hell.

Well, even if I think that man " B " have to go burn in Hell, I think that both of them will go in Heaven.

For Byrd :

hu hu hu....Mother Theresa is burning in Hell. Where did you have this info ?

Really, I don't understand why she have to burn in Hell.Otherwise, ALL OF US will go burn in Hell.

And I don't know for you, but me, I want to go in Heaven, NOT in Hell.

Ill only say this once, god created a religion and one solid belief, if the whole world
did not believe the truth itself would not change because man believes something else.

but to the topic.

First, even if he chopped up hs family and then in prison found the lord that is not
an automatic trip to heaven.

"" Not (all) that say lord lord shall enter the kingdom, but he who does the will of my father in
heave ""


To the first guy.

God would convert a just man of moralaity and goodness, not (one) just man will enter into hell unless we ourselves will
it.

God does not send us to hell unless we will to be there.

if the man was just his whole life i assure you god would convert him and show him the truth.

if he blatantly denies christ then his works amount to nothing on earth.

If a maan was born in the wilderness doing all good his whole life but never knowing about any religion or any god, he willl make it as long as he is just.

But if you here of christ and blatantly deny him and all the miracles of him that hes given us you cannot
be with him for eternity because you don't believe in him.

he cannot let a man who willinglyy dis believes him be in eternity with him.


Such the case that both could be hypocrites, or both could be saints, but it is not our job to judge
men.

peace.

Originally posted by Truth

Ill only say this once, god created a religion and one solid belief, if the whole world
did not believe the truth itself would not change because man believes something else.

Truth, finally, you have the humour sense.
Go forward....go forward.....don't stop please.

"Ill only say this once, god created a religion and one solid belief, if the whole world
did not believe the truth itself would not change because man believes something else. "

Problem is though, EVERY religion believes the same in this respect. So, if we take Man A, who was raised since birth to be say, a Buddhist. Are you saying that now (after his death) he should renounce his life-long held beliefs?

Turning the table though, what if you were Man A, died, and then found out that the one true God was Buddha? (Not saying he is, this is a what-if?) Would you then renounce everything you believed to then go to the afterlife? Because this is what you are asking Man A to do...

Again, something to think about....

[Edited on 23-12-2002 by Gazrok]

I think I asked something like this question in the old board

Who is more righteous? An atheist who does good all his life or a christian who does evil.

What about the Neanderthals? There was no religion what so ever back then. Where do they go?

My main gripe about religion is the fact that one religious group denies other religious groups. This happens within Christianity also. My god is right, yours is wrong.

Another thing, God created us as free thinking individuals. Its our freedom and mindfulness to believe what we feel is right. How could God deny us for this when he made us this way? Every person has different views on what the meanings are in the bible, so how can anyone be wrong (or right for that matter)?

First, the original question:
Both. The Bible tells you that all that call upon His name will be saved. Notice, that does not say all that use His name, but all that call upon Him. Once you accept Christ as your savior and repent of your sins, you become a new man, your old sins are washed away by the blood of the Lamb.
The man who was a good and decent man and followed all the laws of God even though he never heard of God probably knew there had to be one one. God said that His creation was proof enough that He exists, and that man that lived way out in the booies and never heard of Him probably figured that out. When he died, he was judged on those two things: Living according to the morals engineered into humans by God, and figuring that there is a God.

Doomsday, of course only one religion is correct. Have you gotten trapped by the relative morality and truth garbage? There is only one truth. I am 39 years old, and that is my age no matter in what way I look at it. The atmosphere filters the colors of the spectrum but blue. No amount of relativity is going to change the truth. God gave you the right to freedom of choice. That does not mean that every choice you make is right. Reality should have taught you that by now if you are older than a todler. If He didn't give you freedom of choice, you'd be no more than a robot. God wants you to worship Him, fellowship with Him, be with Him. It's your choice to do that or to follow one of the other religions. They all seem good, they all seem to go the right way (most people wouldn't follow a belief that goes against how God engineered us, so the religions have to abide by that), but Christ made it clear to us that the path that will lead us to Heaven to be with Him is narrow, but the path to destruction is wide. That would not indicate that all decisions we make is right and that all paths are good.

Of course, Thomas, then you get into the interesting conundrum:

If Jehovah is omniscient, then he knew Adam and Eve would eat from the tree and knew the snake would tempt them. If he didn't want them to eat, he would have not planted the tree there.

Even a five year old knows that if you don't want someone to eat something, you hide your goodie and don't tell the other person about it. It couldn't have been a test... he knew exactly what they'd do.

Therefore, he set it up from the time he created the world so that most of his creations were going to Hell (all the non-Jews, the people killed by the Food, the millions smote by Jehovah directly, all the non-Christians... billions of human lives.)

Why?

You can't say it's something he didn't know and argue free will, because he's omniscient and knew from the beginning all the secrets of time and space.

So what's his motive in creating a universe so he can fill Hell with souls?

Why do you call G-d Jehovah?

Jehovah was a false name created by german in what, 1500 the last I checked.

Byrd, God knew the beginning and the end, of course. He knew Adam and Eve were going to be morons, of course. He knew that their actions would cause Christ to have to die so that the humans would have the ability to escape the Hell that was created not for the Humans but for Satan and His followers.

The tree was the choice in the beginning. Adam and Eve had absolutely no knowledge of evil, of wrong. The only right/wrong choice to be made by them was the tree. That was their only act of obedience.

Even though God knew that they would make a bad choice that would cause Him to sacrifice His Son so that mankind might not perish but have everlasting life, He still created us and gave us that choice that made us different.

He didn't create the universe to fill Hell full of souls. He does not fill Hell full of souls; don't blame that on Him. He wants all to come to Him, He wants us all to fellowship with Him forever. That, however is our choice. If we make the wrong choice, we spend eternity with Satan and the other fallen angels in a place designed for them.
Byrd, do you understand why those who chose not to take Christ cannot be allowed into Heaven but must go to the same place Satan and His will go?

Thomas, how can you say it was a choice?

Jehovah *KNEW* what would be chosen. It would only be free choice if he didn't know beforehand that they'd choose it. Furthermore, since he set up his religion and created all mankind, he knows (in advance, for as far down the years as you can count) who will die an atheist, who will die an agnostic, who will die believing whatever they want to.

That means he created them like that.

Now, take all the humans that ever lived. Only a small proportion were Jewish and we know that Jehovah didn't think all of them were worth saving because he destroyed all but a family with the flood. So those folks all went to Hell. And only a tiny part of this planet ever heard of the Jewish deity... so the rest were sent to Hell... and Jehovah knew they would be. He could have prevented this by making sure that only Jews inhabited the Earth.

After the Jews came the Christians, and again only a fraction of people on the planet believe in Jehovah and the Christian faith.

Remember... Jehovah knew all this and created all this and allowed all this. He knew that far more people would die and go to Hell under those rules than would be saved and go to heaven. He knows that at the Final Battle, Satan and his minions will come forth and then be defeated. Indeed, he knows the time and the hour.

Therefore he knows exactly how many will be going to Hell before they are even born.

According to the tenets of the Christian religion, nonbelievers (most of the world for all of the time that humans have walked the surface of the planet) go to Hell. That's almost everybody. Jehovah knew that long before he set the tree in the garden.

What kind of deity creates a world for the purpose of filling Hell with souls?

Originally posted by Byrd
Jehovah *KNEW* what would be chosen. It would only be free choice if he didn't know beforehand that they'd choose it. Furthermore, since he set up his religion and created all mankind, he knows (in advance, for as far down the years as you can count) who will die an atheist, who will die an agnostic, who will die believing whatever they want to.

That means he created them like that.

God did not decide these things. because he knows what will happen, does not mean he can be held accountable for our freewill. how we react to our environment and surroundings determines what path we take, and end up in.

Originally posted by Byrd
Now, take all the humans that ever lived. Only a small proportion were Jewish and we know that Jehovah didn't think all of them were worth saving because he destroyed all but a family with the flood. So those folks all went to Hell. And only a tiny part of this planet ever heard of the Jewish deity... so the rest were sent to Hell... and Jehovah knew they would be.

there weren't any jews around that time (abraham came later). the only differences between people were, those who were pagans, and those who believed in the one God. and noah and his family were the only ones who believed in him.

Originally posted by Byrd
Remember... Jehovah knew all this and created all this and allowed all this.

then what would be the purpose of 'freewill' if God intervened and made people only believe in him from the beginning?

If Jehovah is omnipotent and omniscient, then he set up our fate from the beginning. We have no free will. He could have chosen for us all to be eaten by cheetahs before we were thirty years old by tweaking a situation here and a molecule there as he set the Earth into motion. He could have set things up so that he had prophets arising to preach "one deity Jehovah" for every land and to every people since the time of Adam.

He didn't. If you say he's omnipresent and omniscient and omnipotent, then he set things up to have most of us die and go to hell.

If he isn't omnipotent, then he couldn't set the world up so that we would all go to Heaven.

If he is not omniscient, then he doesn't know the future any more than we do -- and his prophets are liars.

So if you're postulating an omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscient deity, then we have no free will and he set the situation up so that most of humanity will go to Hell.

If we have free will, then Jehovah cannot be omnipotent or omniscient or omnipresent.

how can one give human characteristics to the divine nature of God? who are we to say these things?

this shows how inferior we all are. we try to assume things from ideas we know nothing about.

Actually, that's not human attributes. It's simple, straightforward logic.

If Jehovah is being omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent, then you have no free will (If Jehovah knows everything, is in everything, and nothing happens without his command (either direct or indirect (letting something happen)), then you have no free will.)

If you have free will, then Jehovah is lacking at least one (and maybe all three) of the characteristics: omnipotence (he's not all-powerful), omnisicence (things happen that are against his will or things happen that he didn't give permission to happen), and omnipresence (he's doesn't know everything that happens.)

The Christian religion is quite laughable. It is so wrapped up in Ancient European tribalism that it fails to accomplish what EVERY OTHER RELIGION ON EARTH HAS DONE!

From muslims to buddhists to hindu's, the repentor is NEVER cleansed entirely just because he heard some priest give him his vows JUST before he dies.

This reminds me of a Zen Parable (sumarized):

A man breaks into a "priest's" home, and threatens to kill him if he does not give him all the money that the priest has. The Priest tells him that he may take what is over in the drawer of his table, so long as he leaves enough for him to pay his taxes, the thief does this and leaves. Soon afterwards he is caught by a gaurd and brought to the priest so that he may be identified and thus punished. But the priest, says to him that he gave the man the money as a gift, and that he did no wrong! Because of this favor, where the priest chose compasion over punishment, the thief changed his ways and became a student of the priest.

I think that is what even Christianity is trying to get across with this "vows" thing, because everyone knows that if you punish no matter what, no one will repent, and change, they will become more brutal, and more destructive. This is what I think is hurting our school system, them and their shameful "zero tollerance". That path leads only to anarchy.

Christianity fails though to complete the concept, and rather, like our legal system, it has many loopholes, if I didn't think all there was is life, I'd see no reason NOT to just blow away anyone and everyone, then repent and be "cleansed".

Christianity is in my opinion based on ancient tribalism, and thus its roots are steeped in fanaticism of conversion, rather than actuall spiritual enlightenment, hence "Saving souls" vs. making life "enlightened" hence the foundation of such institutions as Protestantism, Rosicrucianism, and *gasp* even Freemasonry.

Sincerely,
no signature

My thoughts on god:

God is not omnipresent. (He is everything but with no "consiousness" as to say, change fate or make miracles)
God is not omniscient. (Things we do may or may not be against "his" will if it even has a will. While the whole universe however, works exactly as "he" planned, or rather one should say, God is the Order that this universe runs on. We are the chaos, the uncontrolled and free of will, all other things follow a system, that is god)
God is not omnipotent. (How does something that IS everything, have any power of anything?)

Summary: Giving god a personifictation has led to some of the worst disasters and crimes man could ever concieve. God is not All powerful, the man who believes he is is all powerful, filled with false courage, and ideals.

God is the order, that we are not, hence his "superiority", god is all the stuff that makes up this universe, it is afterall what created it, and something can't come from nothing. God is the why, why are we here? Why do we have a future? Why do we have anything?

Science will answer this in time, if people do not confuse science versus god, they are the same. God will not be found in spirit only, but he will be found through understanding, of where we are all going, and what all this means.

The true being of light is one that has found god in nature, and in himself. Not one that thinks god is on his side and that he "cares" about anything, so much as if all of earth were to be shattered and sent flying into the sun.

You asked for opinions, there's a whopper

Sincerely,
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Byrd, how does God knowing the future as well as the past and the present have anything to do with your freedom of choice? Your choice is still your own, just as it is everyday when you decide for yourself all the things from what color of slacks you intend to wear to whether or not you are going to plant a bullet into the brain of that really obnoxious coworker that angers you from time to time. If you have no choice in the matter, what's the use of talking to you? It would be no different from talking to a radio, and that is how God would see it. Robots would have been easier to design, and there sure would have been alot less heartache associated with them, but He gave us free choice, the ability to choose or deny Him.
When the day comes and your heart beats its last beat and you are standing in His presence, don't try and tell Him you had no choice. That'll be pretty lame.

As far as how many people accept Christ as their savior, you are correct that the numbers will be smaller than one might hope. But as far as the folks that don't hear of Him, they will be judged by their following the built-in knowledge of right and wrong, and their realizing that God exists. He said that the proof of His existance is all around us and that it is enough for one to know He is there. Once you hear about Him, though, you must make a choice. Don't leave Earth without making the right one.