Creationists - How Do You Explain This?

DID GOD CREATE MAN 6000 YEARS AGO AND MAKE IT LOOK AS IF THERE WAS A BACTERIUM INSIDE HIM THAT EVOLVED OVER MILLIONS OF YEARS!!!!

I have had a nagging worry about the act of human Creation as a unique event for years. It would appeal to my sense of reasoning for Creation of the Universe and then possible intervention at crucial points in human/hominid development.

For example in all human body cells there are 'energy factories' called mitochondria. These resemble bacteria that may have 'joined up' to human cells at some point in the evolutionary past. If you use poisons that kill bacteria, the mitochondria die but human cells are undamaged.

Human cells carry the genetic information in the form of DNA wrapped up as chromosomes - the mitochondria carry circular DNA like bacteria. Additionally, the mitochondrial DNA is not wrapped up like human DNA but 'naked' like bacterial DNA.

Even the proteins coded for by the DNA of the mitochondria resemble bacterial proteins.

If you are a Creationists, what would be the reasoning of God creating man with something that resembled a bacterium inside it? I don't see the logic in it....

reply to post by Heronumber0

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The logic would appear to be that they serve a purpose or served a purpose? I dont really think this question is a challenge to creationism as there is no proof that we started with this "bacteria" it could be enviromental, scientifically speaking we have no way of knowing what our atmosphere contained in early planetary stages, ecosystems frequently adapt and evolve. I dont think you can honestly expect an answer to that question at least not one which would carry any merit

reply to post by Bys0n

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Thanks for the answer. This is one of the most difficult things I have ever had to do, bearing in mind the number of evangelist friends I still have. The bottom line is an act of Creation 6000 years ago to create a human who appears to have a bacterial companion that would normally evolve this relationship over millions of years. Dude I still believe in god, I just think He wouldn't play games with us...

I think it depends in how you interpret the creation story, especially seeing as it possibly isnt even the whole account, just a rendering or a chinese whisper which is what we have ended up with over all these years.

Personally, I neither believe or disbelieve in 'God', my heart and soul tell me there is a higher being but my brain just cant comprehend what it might be right now. I do believe though that the Gods refered to in the Bible, and any other ancient civilisations or creation stories are either ET's or even races that lived here before us or perhaps even still among us.

So if we have been living among more advanced beings at one point in our history it isnt unthinkable that they have influenced our evolution and what-not to make us what we are today.
So we could have evolved from bacterium and still there could be credability in the creation story, meaning that both points are actually valid.

No facts or anything, just theories I have often thought about.

reply to post by lezvigi

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Interesting points raised. However, the central point I am making is that there seems to be a bacterium like thing inside our human cells. How did it get there? Did God create Adam and give him these energy making bacteria things or is the evidence pointing towards the evolution of a single human like cell.

Then, along comes a little bacterium which makes energy. It gets taken up by the cell and hangs on for the ride. The human gets the benefit of energy and the bacterium gets a chance to stay alive as long as the humans do, as a useful parasite.

The question is why? Why does God not make Adam from unique materials and why make this bacterium thing, the mitochondrion, giving the appearance of evolution?

I am open to comments...

I believe God created us. I DO NOT believe he created us 6,000 years ago. Tens of thousands .. hundreds of thousands .. but not 6,000. He may have used evolution. He may not have. He may have used space aliens to create us. He may not have. In any case - I believe it was God's guiding hand that caused us to happen. He made it happen - in a way that best suited Him.



Frankly .. considering what goes on in the world ... sometimes I wonder about that.

reply to post by FlyersFan

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Exactly so. I think that God has shown His artistry and design to us in many ways, the design of human beings and the design of animals and plants being two other ways. I feel that He evolved humans for a reason and that we carry the responsibility as believers to carry this evolution further.

Perhaps we can evolve to see other dimensions and it is at that point that God will reveal himself and say: 'Well done - you made it finally!'

reply to post by FlyersFan

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Exactly so. I think that God has shown His artistry and design to us in many ways, the design of human beings and the design of animals and plants being two other ways. I feel that He evolved humans for a reason and that we carry the responsibility as believers to carry this evolution further.

Perhaps we can evolve to see other dimensions and it is at that point that God will reveal himself and say: 'Well done - you finally made it!'

Hello There,

If you still the believe the true God of the Bible, then trust him.

before you can look you need the eye, before you walk you need the legs.

im not a scientist but as science has constantly proved incorrect the hard facts it previously knocked out. In time the answer will be revealed.

when we were told that the appendix was useless did we abandoned the fact we were created? no we didn't and we went on to find that it pays a vital part in our health.

We must believe all the word of God, otherwise it knocks our faith and little by little we distrust more and more. The enemy of God will use everything and anything to loosen your faith.

Stand firm. There is much of the Bible we are to be taught as individuals.

God changed the world with the flood, he went on to say some animals could be eaten. who is to say that he will not change it again to some degree and these bacteria will play a part in that? i dont know

I think my question would be how something so small could operate in such a fantastic way, accident?? i doubt it.

beware of scientific values such as

could, may, might, should, thought, possibly etc

read any paper and you will find all this. and they have the cheek to say we are mad????

all the best

david



[edit on 29-3-2008 by drevill]

So what happens if we kill of all these bacteria/mitochondria?

Maybe we acquired it and were not created with it.

Maybe that is why we no longer live as longs as those listed in the Bible?

reply to post by drevill

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David, thank you. the way you phrased your post was just what I needed and has made me emotional to be honest. Your thoughts were wise and beautiful. God Bless mate.

For the simple reason that if we were of "unique material" chances are nearly everything on the planet woud be toxic to us, what would we eat? Everything in our happy little bubble of existence is carbon based, most living animals are edible, so are most plants, fruits, veggies bla bla bla. We would be an incompatible piece in the food chain which in itself shows nothing more than this planet let alone this universe is in no way random, its designed.

I do believe in "God", for me it isnt hard to accept the possibilty that there are things in the world that are far beyond what i am capable of understanding and I i do personally think there is more evidence for creationism than evolution. A simple way to crush and evolutionist's argument is ask them how to explain life, soul, conscious/subconscious. Was that random to? Just because nobody knows the meaning of life doesnt mean there isnt one!



[edit on 29-3-2008 by Bys0n]

Thank the Lord,

Im glad and thankful also, i can at time be told im blunt so its nice to hear i was used for a positive affect.

God Bless

david

Good point - I think with some cancers, these shut down in the cancer zone and the cancer survives by a different form of respiration to get energy. However people who have diseases where the DNA is affected are quite seriously troubled.

For example these diseases are caused by faulty genes in the mitochondrial DNA:



Wiki Link




That was my thought. We acquired it but what is the mechanism? Oh, I see what you are getting at...that is interesting

reply to post by Bys0n

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Excellent reply. I could buy into that argument completely now. For the sake of brevity I cannot replicate your post entirely but this is the second time today that I can say that my faith and reason can be unified. Of course I believe in design, but it is the method that I wondered about and that was the point of the OP. Thank you for your comments.

I happened to stumble across this thread so I thought I would post my opinion/interpretation on what the bible says as an answer some of these questions.



My question to this would be: why would God do that? that would only make his Word less believable. and why cant God make bacteria at the same time as man? why does he have to make things evolve over millions of years?
let me step back here and make one thing clear - divergent evolution/speciation/micro evolution does not contradict the bible at all whatsoever. variations within the different kinds of animals out there happen, you may get a different species but you will never get a different kind of animal. for example: horses, zebras, zonkies, zeonies and shebras are all the same kind of animal same kind. 99% of the time they can produce offspring. and sometimes variations create sucha great diversity that (lets say) the shebra can no longer breed with the pony. this is scientfic and it has been observed. im not saying this example I gave has been proved, but the concept has. and all that we know by this concept is that species change over time and as far as we know, those changes are limited.

now back to this bacteria question. if this bacteria was only appearing to evolve over millions of years.... first of all that would be deceitfull on Gods part. I think God can do it right the first time.



id have to disagree with a few parts in this one.
God using evolution to get us? Jesus quotes/refers to Genesis numerous times, other cross references indicate that God created the universe in 6 literal days. and it also says that the creation of Adam was the beginning. now if that was the beginning, then all you have to do is use the geneology of the bible to find out how old the earth is. (rough estimate puts it at 6,000<10,000 years. I think the aliens are out of the question, God said he made man from dust of the earth, not using anything else. see God having to use something in order to create means he doesnt have absolute power. All God has to do is speak and things happen. "let there be light" and there is light.
and what is wrong with the idea that God can do it all in six days the way he wants it with no help? sounds to me like you are trying to limit God on his abilities in order to explain or find common ground with what some people try to call science.



to add to this one, (which I agree with 100%) try this sometime.
take about 5 minutes of your time to sit still and realize that the person looking through your eyes into the world is you. not john doe, not joe shmoe, its you. and the cool thing is, you know its you. you have control over your decisions and you can make things happen. notice also that you (a cognitive being) exists. and just ask yourself if you havent already. "how is it that I am me and not someone else?" if you think about that question, when you find the answer I can guarantee it will be "because you were created, not evolved"
by the way, how is it that I am me and you are you? why isnt someone else me? why isnt someone else you? not physically you (I supposed we could look like anything.) which leads to the thought of non-existence.
what would that be like? I dont remember but it sure does freak me out sometimes just thinkin about it.

idk just soemthing to think about.

its true though. Its easy for me to argue this point because i have an African Grey Parrot, to say he is intelligent is an understatement, he never ceases to amaze me but not just with his problem solving or quality vocal abiliys he is the most social pet i have ever had, he craves attention, loves people always joins in on the conversation he will even snuggle up in your arms if your stroking him. Now how can science explain how two species which are totally unrelated can communicate and bond on such a level, there is no natural mutual benefit, there is nothing chemically compatible, genetically compatible, scientifically speaking our existences should not meet yet when it does it works. What would be the scientific term for that?

Science can explain a lot of things but no one knows the meaning of life and why it was given to us and not just us but other species aswell. I am sure some of you own a dog or have owned a dog, how does science explain that?

Man probably played out before on earth, we do not know how many times before though.

So your question is useless, because we do not know what happened to the last time.

Read Psalms 90:3 You turn men back to dust, saying, "Return to dust, O sons of men." 4 For a thousand years in your sight are like a day that has just gone by, or like a watch in the night.

Now take 6000 years multiply it by 365.24 and then 1000. The answer to the riddle is 2.191.440.000. That would be about as long there has been life on earth.

A night watch however lasted three hours. Which would multiply our sum with eight: 2.191.440.000 x 8 = 17.531.520.000. That would be just about what science has managed to produce.... I'd say the bible is quite accurate...

[edit on 4/4/2008 by Neo Christian Mystic]

So if god modelled man after himself does this mean god also has components derived from bacteria? If so which came first? The god or the bacterium?

This is just too funny for I have long believed that bacteria was of more use to humans than any concept of gods and godesses.