Florida School Security Officer Tasers 11-Year-Old Girl

Originally posted by Damocles

Originally posted by gimme_some_truth
I said nothing about throwing anyone on the floor. I meant to say that you would hold one there head down. If done correctly (this officer did not use NVCI correctly) It will not hurt them.

The bottome line is I am stricly against the use of tazer guns. I simply dont like it. No one can convince me that they are a good thing. Im too damn stubborn

[edit on 28-3-2008 by gimme_some_truth]

yes, i know what you said.

i also know what i typed.

i was throwing out a "what if"

"what if" you did this move with the intent of simply "forcing their head down" and the child then overbalanced and went tumbling headlong to the floor with at least one of the arms they'd normally use to catch themselves firmly in your grasp?

not something you envision cuz thats not doing it correctly?

Here is another 'what if' for you then

What if the taser kills the child? Then what?

In this situation the taser may have been the correct response, we will never know as we weren't there. What we can say is that if the officer was big enough and strong enough to control the child in the first place then a situation would have never arose where the taser would have been necessary.

Originally posted by Finn1916

I'm still withholding judgement on the taser as far as for or against untill the rest of the story omes out. as we all know, there will be more that we don't know as of yet, kinda like a cliffhanger in a dikens book, forcing us to hold on and wait to see all the facts.

Yeah Like a little more evidence to show that this girl really attempted to murder someone, outisde of another rival child's testimony

Originally posted by Tguntony

Then I stand by my previous post if they have the ability to qualify with a handgun they can qualify in the art of safely subduing a person without the need to use a tazer.

Those are my sentiments exactly

Sorry for this crap post

Originally posted by zysin5
This little brat was so out of control that she tried to murder another person.

What are your thoughts on the part where no one witnessed this murder attempt, other then another child? I am not saying she didn't but kids lie and exggerate in grade school all the time. You are saying it so absolutely.

I think hitting her with that taser was a good idea.

Assuming it wasn't against Florida Law, do you still think it was a good idea? What about unarmed skills, the ability to submit someone with grappling techniques? This officer may not have had those skills and ability. Do you think they should? Or is the taser good for all situations?

Originally posted by Damocles

however...youre a professional fighter right? or if not pro then at least an amateur who competes

I guess it would be amateur since I am not getting paid. But I compete at the national level attempting to go world. Primarily in the eskrima arts. The flavor I belong to is called San Miguel Doce Pares. Basically if you have heard the terms "kali" "arnis" "eskrima", you prolly have an idea. Short sword, dagger, and clubs/sticks are the focus for my team.

and so to that end you spend a LOT of time training. 3 times a week? more?

Like most it varies with personal discipline But I would say on average 2-3 times a week at 1-2 hour sessions. ALOT more a couple months before any competition though. There is alot more full contact sparring (armored) in my art then most others.

we both know that to keep skills requires practice and that much of that learning well then having your skills "kick in" when needed if you dont practice is BS. police simple do not have time to spend half their duty day in the dojo.

Right, I agree with that, but I think you're exaggerating things a bit

Police don't need to spend half their time in the dojo to keep simple grappling techiniques in muscle memory. I would say to keep just a few key techniques in memory, 1 session a week at 2 hours would be plenty.

we do have data gonig back years of kids getting electrocuted etc in accidents but most of all we have a pretty good idea of how the body reacts to electricity.

Fair enough. But I did post some interesting info on that from Wiki. Including 5 cops filing lawsuits because of injuries sustained from using tasers in training. That counts for something. Not too mention the push to have it reclassified at "impact weapons". Clearly many others are stressing a higher risk with this tasers..

it takes .6mA or so to stop a heart and that is amps across the heart.

I am pretty sure I read there was cases of deaths by tasers in that Wiki. Not saying what you're saying isn't valid. But those instances were heart related I think?

so YOU as a trained fighter would likely have been able to restrain her without damaging her. I probably could have as well. (never been in a ring but im not exactly untrained)

That's a big part of what I am trying to stress here though. People like us, who have been trained, are qualified. Police officers should not be armed with tasers and assigned as school security if they don't even have those basic unarmed skills.

but, the officer tried, failed, and did what she felt she had to. you think it was excessive. i think it was a good alternative to mace or the baton or god forbid a firearm.

I agree that the girl needed to be 'subdued'. I agree that the taser was better then a baton and a firearm. *dunno enough about mace*. I don't agree the taser was better then submission grappling, especially considering it was child.

Originally posted by Damocles

Originally posted by Tguntony
In the article it states that she is 11 years old and 150lbs, in my book that qualifies as morbidly obese (depending on height) so that alone would be putting major stress on the child's heart so yes being electrocuted could potentially cause serious injury or even death. Shes very lucky she wasnt injured by the tazer.

omg, i actually feel kind of dumb for missing that point!

it doesnt change my apraisal of the situation and i still think the officer was justified...BUT, you are the first to point this out and you are correct

Yeah that's a keen observation there. I am no cardiologist by any means but that makes sense to me

reply to post by cleggy88



well, as a "what if" and from that perspective, it would have been a tragedy and theres no way around it honestly.

but what if she didnt have a taser? more aggressive hand to hand which could have also harmed the child longer than the 5 seconds it did.

Chemical intervention IE mace/cs (not sure waht they carry down there but from my perspective id hope it was pepper mace vs CS)

baton?

firearm?

im still of the opinion that while it was a bad situation she made the right call. yes theres an X% chance the child could have been harmed by the taser but she was a large child and that X% chance was pretty small.

IMO it was a smaller chance than the chance of the child OR officer being injured due to any aggressive hand to hand moves. when someone is fighting back, regardless of how passive your hand to hand is, theres a chance of doing harm and serious injury to EITHER the child or the officer.

from that point of view i continue to think she responded in a level that while may or may not have been excessive, it was justified.

had this been an adult the officer could have shot her and probably had it found to be justified there as well.

Originally posted by Lucid Lunacy
What are your thoughts on the part where no one witnessed this murder attempt, other then another child? I am not saying she didn't but kids lie and exggerate in grade school all the time. You are saying it so absolutely.

I think hitting her with that taser was a good idea.

The incident began when teachers at the Moss Elemenary School in Orange County confronted an 11-year-old girl for allegedly attempting to push another student into ongoing traffic outside the campus, MyFOXOrlando.com reported.

Authorities say the young female ignored the teacher and walked inside the homeroom, where she was again approached by teachers over her behavior. The student responded by thowing a desk and chair and attempting to spit on the instructor, according to MyFOXOrlando.com.

the teachers were outside. the story isnt real clear ill admit but at first glance theres nothing to indicate to me that the teachers didnt in fact witness it...

Assuming it wasn't against Florida Law, do you still think it was a good idea? What about unarmed skills, the ability to submit someone with grappling techniques? This officer may not have had those skills and ability. Do you think they should? Or is the taser good for all situations?

i wont presume to speak for anyone else, and we've had this discussion on going between us as well as a few others but the story does indicate that that WAS her first recourse. so after that failed she was faced with two choices

more agressive hand to hand which we BOTH know that regardless of the officers level of experience COULD have resulted in greater injury to the child

OR

back off and use the taser which while it could have injured the child was the safer of the choices.

Originally posted by Lucid Lunacy
I agree that the girl needed to be 'subdued'. I agree that the taser was better then a baton and a firearm. *dunno enough about mace*. I don't agree the taser was better then submission grappling, especially considering it was child.

then one last thing to consider from the hand to hand vs taser standpoint.

officer is already injured, broken or just took one hell of a blow to the nose its going to cause pain and likely blurred vision due if nothing else to the tearing effect thats common to such a strike, and while a trained fighter takes blows to the face in training that will allow them to in a sense "get used to it" so that they can still fight with their minds clear most people, even cops dont. but thats actually pretty irrelevant to what im going to say..

the actual point is that at the childs age regardless of size her bones arent going to be as fully developed as an adult her size.

youre sensei ever teach you how to apply your hand to hand moves on kids with that in mind? you could apply an arm bar to me and id be fine yet the same arm bar even with less force could have broken this childs arm. and the adrenaline rush associated with being in pain could have only made this chance greater.

do you see where i am coming from in thinking that maybe the taser was in actuality the safer way to go?

and ill look up some stuff for you on mace later, im actually probably done here for the day or at least til later. its pretty benign overall (unless the girl had asthma which could have turned into a bad situation REAL fast) just hurts like hell for up to 30 mins. but id still say mace over CS anytime. CS (tear gas for those that dont know) can do some nasty stuff to the body, adult or child (this one i know first hand, ive been CS'd more than probably anyone youve ever spoken too) but ill try to find you some good info on that one later.

[edit on 29-3-2008 by Damocles]

[edit on 29-3-2008 by Damocles]

[edit on 29-3-2008 by Damocles]

Originally posted by Damocles
reply to post by gimme_some_truth

 

sorry i missed your post a few pages back and wanted to reply.

believe it or not i DO see where youre coming from and i can respect that you dont like 'what if's' but you have to admit they can and do happen usually at the worst possible time.

you may see NVCI as simple self defense but the person you are using them against means to do you harm and at some point you must shift from a defensive stance to an offensive one if you want to take this person into custody unless your intent is to stand there and defend until they tire out and give up but the longer you do that the better the chances of a 'what if' have to occur.

Then what?

well, you have what we have here. the officer tried to restrain the child, a 'what if' popped up and she responded. maybe not to your satisfaction but that doesnt mean it wasnt justified and even you should agree that the taser is better than more aggressive hand to hand combat which has a greater chance of harming the child long term than a taser does.

maybe you dont agree...but i guess we'll have to agree to disagree then

I figured you missed it, Its okay

Im glad you can see where im coming from, to be perfectly honest I can see your point as well. You are right to say that what if's can and do happen. I must admit that my opinion on this particular situation could be considered a biased one because I really am completly against tazer guns. I dont know, I guess I just like to think that its possible to handle situations without resorting to such things (niave as it may be) I will admit that the girl was absolutley out of control and needed to be brought under control. You are right to assume that the way she was brough under control did not meet my satisfaction. As far as using the tazer, I think we may just have to agree to disagree as you suggested.

reply to post by Lucid Lunacy



I just saw that you wrote a punch in the nose shouldn't have been enough to get the action. I'm also a fighter, broke many a nose in my day; and if you hit the right spot the nose turns to mush and would even send the most experienced sensei back to one knee. Now you may notice that my previous statement didn't go anywhere, much like you stating your experience in the earlier article. Fact is that anything done to any type of officer is considered foul play, even if you threw a pen at the lady. Other fact is that any type of officer with even minimal training is tought to use their side arms, which ever side arm it may be. You can tell me a million times that this girl was 11, and I'll tell you a million times that even a six year old could cause significant damage if put in the right situation. She threw a desk, spit on a teacher, and punched a "officer" in the face, she deserved anytype of treatment necessary.

Originally posted by Damocles

and maybe ive not been clear, i dont say this should have been the FIRST thing she tried..and it wasnt. she tried to restrain the child physically and failed and recieved an injury. so rather than use more aggressive hand to hand techniques she shocked the child and i see that as being less harmful than potentially causing the child longterm harm.

Damocles I was just posting that wiki stuff as I thought it was somewhat relevant food for thought for us to read, I wasn't directing that bit at you or anything.

Originally posted by Lokey13
She threw a desk, spit on a teacher, and punched a "officer" in the face, she deserved anytype of treatment necessary.

Right. Like I said, and I think we are all in agreement, this girl needed to be "subdued". The thing I am arguing is wether that was the necessary treatment or not.

My contention is still that this officer should have had the adequate grappling training, and should have been able to submit her with it. Instead she failed her attempt at subduing her physically, most likely because of her lack of skill, and immediately resorted to the taser. My contention is that if she had the proper training it wouldn't have even gotten that far.

As for the punch in the face. Yes it could potentially disoriente even someone who is a 'seasoned' fighter.

If you read all the articles (I found 3) it becomes clear the nose probably wasn't broken. Bruised up pretty bad though. I am sure it was a solid connect But it didn't turn it to mush.

Thinking about this more and more, I have realized the LEO probably did not have very much hand to hand combat training. Most people that I have met who have had any training whatsoever in any form of combat arts have a natural reaction to being hit, or even a punch being thrown. My judo minded friend will more often than not grapple and then throw his attacker. My kung fu practicing brother, a simple move out of the way type thing followed by a kick or hand strike to your head. my point? anyone with training in combat arts/self defense will naturally react to a physical attack in a way that means striking, grappling, or blocking. By the way, i believe as some of you have pointed out, if she did not have decent hand to hand combat training, she needs to, as all cops need to, be taught a ew moves that can help defuse a situation better.

Article #1

www.foxnews.com...

The incident began when teachers at the Moss Elemenary School in Orange County confronted an 11-year-old girl for allegedly attempting to push another student into ongoing traffic outside the campus

Notice "allegedly". And the "outside of campus" part. Outside of campus usually somewhere not in sight of teachers.

The student responded by thowing a desk and chair and attempting to spit on the instructor

Notice it doesn't say the desk or chair was thrown at anyone, but rather just thrown in general. Notice it says 'attempted to spit on teacher'. So did she at all if it was an attempt?

Donna Hudepohl, a school resource officer called to remove the troubled girl from the classroom, was allegedly pushed and punched in the face during a struggle to restrain her.
Hudepohl responded by tasering the girl.

"Pushed and punched in the face during a struggle to restrain" I don't know, just sounds to me like it was reckless and not someone with unarmed grappling training. It's been establised by Zap and others LEO and Police may have very different training. So should LEOs w/o adequate training be armed with tasers in put in schools?

Hudepohl was treated for a possible broken nose.

Article #2

www.cfnews13.com...

Officials said at some point Hudepohl tried to secure the student, but was forced to use the Taser when she began assaulting her and punched her in the nose.

Ambigious. Doesn't elaborate on what "tried" actually entailed.

Authorities described the 11-year-old girl is being 5 feet 5 inches tall, weighing 150 pounds, which is the same size as Hudepohl.

The weight on this girl varies between articles, but I think we can infer they were similar in size. So what's the difference? Ones an officer and an adult.

Officials are characterizing the situation as one female defending herself against another female of similar size and strength, and not a grown adult tasering an 11-year-old girl.

Okay fine, if that was true, that doesn't change the fact that it's an officer with adult knowledge and ?training? against a child who doesn't have the combat training.

When it comes to elementary aged children, the use of force policy says that we should consider other force options prior to utilizing the Taser.

Okay so what exactly was the 'other' option the officer employed prior to using the taser then? The article just says "tried to secure". Meh.

And in this particular case she was attacked by an 11-year-old, struck in her nose. She thought her nose was broken.

Again, just speculation the nose was broken.

The deputy could have responded at a higher level than the Taser, but she did not. She went one level lower which was the use of the electronic control weapon, which subdued the child," said Commander Spike Hopkins.

The Commander says the officer could have responded at a higher level then the taser. At the point we are at now in this discussion do you guys agree with that? And have we figured out what 'higher' then a taser really entails? Baton? Mace?.... gun?

Hudephol is now recovering at home. She suffered severe bruising to her nasal cavity.

A solid hit that resulted in bad bruising. No break or fracture.

She has been charged with aggravated battery against a law enforcement officer

What do you think that means for a minor? I am thinking not too much?

Article #3

www.orlandosentinel.com...

Deputy Donna Hudepohl, Moss Park Elementary school resource officer, was forced to use her agency-issued Taser against the 5-foot-5, 170-pound girl after repeated efforts to hold her down failed, officials said.

Again, quite ambigious. "repeated efforts". Wish they gave more description, or a video Prolly the best we are gonna get though.

"She was 11 years old, but she had the physical ability to attack this deputy," said Cmdr. Paul "Spike" Hopkins of theOrange County Sheriff's Office.

Umm yeah. What 11 year old doesn't have the "physical ability" to attack a person lol. Bah. Are they just being overtly defensive here?

started after children told a music teacher that they saw the student pushing a smaller child into oncoming traffic. That child was not injured, but the teacher confronted the student who pushed the child about the incident.

So it says here no teachers saw this happen. The testimonies of rival child(ren). Not saying they are lying, but it obviously makes a difference.

she became agitated and began to shove her desk and chair . . . the student continued to yell and made several attempts to spit at the teachers," the agency's report shows.

Doesn't say she shoved the desk or chair at anyone.

Says she "attempted" to spit on teacher.

Administrators called Hudepohl into the classroom to remove the child. The student refused to budge, pushed the officer and then punched her in the face, causing her nose to bleed.

I don't know, I just get the impression the officer was wholly unprepared to handle any resistance. She probably was surprised there was any resistance. Probably didnt have the training to deal with it. Lucky she had her taser

The deputy suffered severe bruising to her nasal cavity,

Again, bad bruising, but no break or fracture.

Hudepohl, who has been with the force since 2001, could have used her baton or punched or kicked the child, Hopkins said, but the Taser was the most appropriate because of the girl's aggressiveness with students, teachers and deputies.

So he said the officer could have used the baton or direct physical strikes. Do you agree? I am not asking if it's the law or not. I'm asking if you agree with those kinds of attacks?

He also makes it sound like the taser was a higher level then batons and direct strikes?

Maybe we should teach our teachers how to BOX!!

And by the way, I'm only half-kidding!

Originally posted by Zaphod58
You're confusing Law Enforcement Officer with Police Officer. They are NOT necessarily the same thing. A rent a cop with a gun can be an LEO, WITHOUT being a police officer. The guys at airports that you see are LEOs many of them were never police officers. LEOs don't get the extensive training that police officers get.

But even if she was a veteran of 20 years, if you get popped in the nose, you're going to have a hard time afterwards. That's one of the more sensetive areas of the body.

Here in Florida they are full fledged sheriff department deputies. Do you think that they give a sheriff department take home squad car to a rent-a-cop? I have had two different neighbors who have done this job over the years, and its mainly older officers getting close to retirement, or officers who want to be off the street for a while for some reason. These officers have all the privileges and responsibilities of a normal officer. They can pull you over and write you a citation, they can work solo off duty jobs. Additionally, the Colleges here have their own police forces, which are also full fledged police officers. They even work DUI roadblocks here in Florida with the other agencies….
don’t sound like rental cops to me.

I know that Zaphod will need to be shown proof of this so here is some:

Florida Resource Officers
Today, crime creates fear that reaches every corner of our society, including our schools. Many police agencies have formed partnerships with school systems to create the School Resource Officer Program. The School Resource Officer Program places a law-enforcement officer on a school campus, making it the officer’s assigned patrol area. The School Resource Officer Program is considered one of the most proactive strategies in community-oriented policing and crime prevention. By applying a community oriented policing philosophy within the school, the School Resource Officer (SRO) is able to assist the school administration in providing the most secure and orderly environment possible.

In 1996, the University of Florida Police Department assigned a full-time School Resource Officer to P.K. Yonge. This officer is one of the few School Resource Officers in Florida to work in a school that includes elementary, middle and high school. The SRO is a specially trained, state-certified law enforcement officer who is assigned full time during the academic school year. The SRO Program is based on a cooperative relationship between law enforcement officers, teachers, school personnel and parents. It develops a positive relationship between the SRO and students.

School Resource Officer
There is one officer that is assigned to this unit. School Resource Officer Donna Darrell has been with Florida Atlantic University Police Department for five years and is assigned to Alexander D. Henderson University School and FAU High School.

See that reflective jacket she is wearing in the picture, it says ”POLICE” not “Security”. It would be against the law for her to wear that if she were not an actual LEO!

Operation 3D Road Blocks
For Immediate Release
News Release Number: OP3D08-061
March 28, 2008
Public Information Office
Who:
Hillsborough County Sheriff’s Office
Florida Highway Patrol
Tampa Police Department
University of South Florida Police Department
Plant City Police Department
What:
Operation3D “Heightened Patrol”

Look at this…. When you apply to be one of these “Rent-A-Cops”, you have to do it through the Sheriff Department:

HCSO Resource Officers
In the early 1970’s, the Hillsborough County Sheriff’s Office developed the School Resource Deputy program. The Hillsborough County Sheriff’s Office was one of the first law enforcement agencies in the nation to implement such a program, well before Community Oriented Policing became a nationally recognized philosophy.

This early strategy has grown into a program that provides a specially trained deputy, on-campus, at each middle school and high school within unincorporated Hillsborough County. The Sheriff’s Office has aggressively expanded the role of Community Oriented Policing to include additional deputies that are deployed to work in communities, surrounding select middle schools and high schools to focus on truancy and other school related problems.

The patrol deputies work in concert with School Resource Deputies, area Community Resource Deputies and detectives addressing problems such as residential burglaries, thefts, and other crimes in their assigned communities, ultimately seeking resolutions to such problems. The Hillsborough County Sheriff’s Office believes the School Resource Deputy program is an integral part of the philosophy of Community Oriented Policing and has greatly enhanced its partnership with the community.

Obviously I live near Hillsborough County, and most of the guys I know are HCSO, TPD, and so on...

She was a real LEO, nuff said?


Link Borken

[edit on 3/30/2008 by defcon5]

Originally posted by Finn1916
That is definitely wrong. Totally wrong. Then again the girl should not have brought a classmate to a push into traffic fight. She should have been escorted home so her mother could beat her for throwing chairs at teachers, spitting on them, and hitting rent a cops.

[edit on 28-3-2008 by Finn1916]

This story that includes the "Taser," goes national okay? Get it?

It polarizes people, it makes an unacceptable practice "acceptable, and debatable." Is it another "divide and conquer propaganda device where people say "good for the police," and others express nothing, Still others detest it because it is a potentially fatal form of Russian Roulette on the populace.

Some 300 people have died because of the spurious and casual use of this so called "non-lethal weapon."

It goes for national propaganda suggesting the government says nothing, and it keeps arming more and more police to use this device. It is to create controversy, where there is no controversy, the taser is a danger to public safety far more than it supplements safety. Instead of using skills the police have honed for more than a hundred years, the neophytes use it casually, and when you step back from the scenes of snickering and laughing, it looks totally insane. There is no argument, you have a better chance with a hidden heart condition to take the alternative method more seldom used with police firearms hitting your leg for example.

It is not controversial, there is no question that our police are armed with a device that can cause death, and no one knows who is vulnerable.

So do not forget the scene, nor the 11 year old girl, and inappropriateness of such force when strong words and firm leadership from the school is necessary. At the same time consider alternatives to these scenes with an obviously malnourished youngster, who needs things such as "Miracle in Michigan," instead of this kind of oppression.

One should fear that the passive acceptance of this kind of propaganda from the mainstream media is what their goal happens to be. File it and next time it happens, listen to the people cheering the police and forget the voice of reason. But the people have no media anymore, save for the internet and other methods that will become more and more necessary in the future. My argument is that this danger to public safety, and the laziness of law enforcement in handling such events is invariably wrong to all concerned with the subject matter here.

I guess that I should add this as well, since I know what zaphod is talking about in terms of the TSA’s at the airport. There is only one School Resource Officer at each normal sized school, they are not equivalent to a TSA, but more akin to Airport Police. There are additional reserve crossing guards that only work a few hours each day that would be more like a TSA officer. The crossing guards are only reserve deputies, and have little in the way of actual law enforcement ability, though I think they can flag you over if you are speeding in a school zone and turn you over to the resource officer for arrest/citation. The reserve officers only have authority to hold you and turn you over to a real officer, such as the resource officer, the same way that a reserve deputy can only assist a real officer in the field, but cannot perform the same functions. At the airport, the TSA’s can detain you, but the arrest has to be effected by an actual Airport Police Officer, same thing here.

Originally posted by Damocles
wait...did you READ what i wrote?

i was pointing out that maybe if kids had some discipline things like this wouldnt happen.

i was saying that MAYBE in THIS case that the taser was the lesser of all available evils.

put yourself in that officers shoes...seriously. the kid had just tried to throw SOMEONE ELSES CHILD into a BUSY STREET, had then assaulted teachers and then YOU, breaking your nose...

now, of all of the things you have at your disposal as a police officer which is the most appropriate for that situation?

do you physically restrain the child like you would an adult, and knowing kids arent built like adults risk serious injury to the child, do you threaten with a firearm? start swinging a baton? all these things cn lead to making a bad situation worse...

or

do you use a tool at your disposal that will allow you to safely render the child incapable of harming anyone else until you can control the situation?

im saying that this officer in this situation did what was least harmful to the child while still controling the situation.

ive also said in this thread that had THIS CHILD been taught some basic friggin values by HER PARENTS maybe just maybe this situation wouldnt have happened.

would your child have done this? based on what you said it appears not and for that i applaud you as a parent

but who are you to judge me for thinking that a taser is better than thrownig a child to the ground like an adult perpetrator or even just grabbing her wrists and risking injury to her....

and IM the one thats wrong here? plz

As far as I'm concerned, the child is lucky that the guard allowed her to continue breathing. She is a menace and should be delt with as such. She has no respect for the lives of others so in turn we show her no respect for her life.

What possible good can come out a person like that. Stop arguing that's she's only twelve or eleven or whatever. What she IS is a lost cause.

Write her off already.