Conflicting ideology?

This is for me an issue i have difficulty coming to terms with, as i always considered myself to hold the ideals of self-sacrifice and compassion close to my heart.

It has always been there, sitting in my mind - a Question un-asked, with an Answer that is as eye-opening personally as the truth of our society.

I found myself becoming aware of this question almost 5 years ago, when i first acquanted myself with the idea of global social breakdown and my actions to deal with it personally.

I always avoided this issue, perhaps conciously.

My question surrounds the circumstances in the event of a SitX, and what to do with the Family.

You may be tempted to inform me that in a SitX old social values once held will be next to meaningless, or you may be tempted to inform that those who can need to take care of themselves.

The latter may hold some relevance considering i am the youngest and therefore probably should not hold myself personally accountable for the survival of those in my immediate surroundings, but i feel that because of my knowledge and skills i stand the best chance of surviving in a situation that requires escape and evasion or even combat, and as such i feel my presence is not merely needed, but required.

It is tempting for me to say i would simply run for it, go and hide somewhere until they gave up looking for me - after all, there might be some emotional troubles that may be brought up if i were to simply say "I'm better off on my own" to my Family.

I am aware that many of those here have family who they themselves have raised, and have instilled the values and skills of survival into those whom are young enough to learn from it.

I feel this is a point that needs to be discussed and clarified now instead of later.

Surely there are those who have thought on the issue, so i would ask what they intend to do, but of course their response may be viewed with unkind appraisal by those whom police their social circles the same way a dog would patrol it's territory.

You could U2U the answer if you liked.

If any has any advice for one whose mind is chaotic on this issue, it would be appreciated in a way that exceeds simple pleasantries.

I need an answer.

I don't want to end up looking into the eyes of a SitX with members of my family standing by me, each of them thinking for themselves on what they think the best course of action is.

I 'know' the best course of action, but it only works insofar as i am alone.

When i start working in groups i start making bad judgements.

Originally posted by Throbber
I 'know' the best course of action, but it only works insofar as i am alone.

When i start working in groups i start making bad judgements.

well let me respond to those two sentences in reverse.

that you KNOW you make bad judgements is a step in the right direction for its the wise man who knows his weaknesses and more importantly can admit them.

as for the second statement (first chronologically) you'd be suprised to find that what often can work for the individual CAN for the short to intermediate terms work for the group.

things to consider:
any plan that will work for you alone will work for your group so long as you arent the only one working for the good of the group. sure you could take care of yourself if you were alone, dont let that make you think that if you suddenly have a group situation that YOU are the ONLY one capable. even those with no clue can probably take directions if you are clear in giving them.

NEVER assume that your way of doing things is the ONLY way. you may be shocked what even what you'd consider your weakest link may be able to offer in a given situation. there are times for one leader to delegate but there are other times when even a brief "committee" may mean the difference between success or failure.

when someone in your group offers a suggestion you find to be, for lack of a better term, wrong. dont just say "thats stupid it would never work". first becuase then they may hesitate to offer suggestions down the line (any of which could save you) and second its always best to explain to someone WHY their idea isnt a good one...in the discussion that follows you may find some part of it that may just be a great idea, but if nothing else you explaining they why's of a bad idea teaches that person and as they learn the more it resets their thinking and their subsequent ideas may be golden.

as to your fear of making bad judgements. the only thing to prepare you for those situations is planning and preparation. if you go over every scenario you can think of in the comfort of your house before youre faced with said situations, and the more you can "plan out" what a good plan is and what a bad plan may be, then when the time comes theres less to sweat as youve already gone over the bad ideas in your head or on paper or in discussions with others so you KNOW what choices to make when the defecation hits the oscillation.

and if you find yourself presented with a situation you couldnt have dreamed up...dont shoulder it all yourself...discuss it with those in your group. their outcome is just as tied to your decisions as your outcome is.

most of all, once you make a decision be it alone or in committee....ACT. it was right or it was wrong. nothing to do then but adapt and overcome.

*shakes head, but smiles*

I'm not saying i know what's best for the group, but that i know what's best for myself.

Which is ultimately the problem i have with surviving alongside a group - when i'm alone i am flexible, i would be able to weather storms, to build ships, to infiltrate enemy lines - the works.

When i'm in a group i need to take into consideration that the next choice could result in the death or injury of a member of the group, and to me that is something that must be avoided at all costs.

Even without the first inkling of a plan, i am restricted to protecting lives instead of simply using my own to acheive whatever it is i need to acheive.

I would be no longer Flexible - i would have to rely on the abilities and leadership skills of others if i want to help the group stay together.

The key elements of my abilities are reduced when i am with others, i wouldn't be able to simply throw myself as the problem with all the discretion of a neon triple x advertisement.

If possible i would end up in a group of like-minded individuals, because at least then we would all be aware of the fact that circumstances can change rapidly, and that in issues of secrecy the misguided actions of one person can illuminate the positions of the entire group.

Of course, each one of us would have our own response to what would happen then.

I guess that what i'm coming to terms with is the idea of 'the bigger the group, the harder it is to survive', because sooner or later someone will come and hunt us down.

I suppose i should leave the leadership to someone else, and take up the duties of a scout, when it comes down to it...

Well, thanks for the response Damocles, you've given me food for thought, and that is more than i asked for.

I think you have some kind of romantic idea of SitX. It's going to be exciting, you'll have to invade the enemy, set traps, and basically be rambo running around the wilderness surviving. Maybe I'm getting the wrong impression.

And none of us truly knows what it's going to be like, but I'm almost certain that it's not going to be fun. It's not going to be going behind enemy lines with a machete and a SAW tearing up the enemy and going back into hiding. I am preparing to be on the run indefinitely.

I have a wife, no children, but a ton of animals. I've said it before, I'll say it again: the animals aren't coming with me if we have to leave the house. I don't have any family where I am, so that makes it easy for me, just take my wife and go. If I move before sitx, I'll be near my family or my wife's family, in which case I'll have the same decisions to make that you have.

My preparations are scalable, in that I'm planning to be moving with a group, some of whom will be older and slower. What works for a group, will work for an individual, only you'll have more options.

It will really come down to the specific situation, on how I approach it. If a nuke is about to drop, I won't have time to grab 4 or 5 people and get out of dodge. I may have time to warn them and get myself to safety if I'm lucky. If it's an invasion of some enemy military force, there will likely be a bit of time before ground forces show up, and in the event of civil breakdown, it's best to stay put for some time anyway.

You have to think about your given situation and who you care about first and apply that to the sitx that comes up. But what you really need to do, is think about what you have and who you have, and prepare in general. You can't prepare for every eventuality, but you can just have survival gear on hand, and be flexible when the time comes.

Tht's an odd idea of romance you have - i'm fully aware of the fact that in many scenarios i'll probably be observing my adversaries from my vantage point while storms lash down around me, reducing visibility to practically zero.

Oh, and if i decide to infiltrate enemy lines, it'll be because i've got my mind set on assassination.

There's only so far you can run before you start to get old.

edit; this is the thing; against an enemy that is prepared to not only occupy but keep your country, you have to be willing to do what it takes to make life hell for them.

In that kind of SitX, i don't expect to survive.

[edit on 28-3-2008 by Throbber]

Originally posted by Throbber
In that kind of SitX, i don't expect to survive.

lol not to sound harsh...but with that mindset id not want you in my group. when it hits the fan i want to be with people who know that to defeat any oppressor you must FIRST SECOND AND LAST survive.

kamikaze nobility makes for great fiction but you do no one anygood if youre dead.

wars are not won by dying for your country. wars are won by making the other guy die for his

and after years of teaching survival...one thing i do know...as good as i thnk i am, im not. no man is an island. but even the US Army dropped the "army of one" campaign.

Ah, i see.

But i wouldn't be anywhere near your group seeing as i'm acting as a scout - at most i'd only be hanging around with you at secure locations.

Even i acknowledge it's pointless to simply dumbfire at random objectives, unless as part of a swarm technique.

On the other hand, i'm in a good position to get ambushed if the enemy decides to rapidly deploy transports, but i suppose advance warning is better than none eh?

if they do their ambush with any proficiency at all...there'd be no warning.

and of course there would be times when any individual could be operating alone in a OP position or as a forward scout...but he/she would still need to be "part of the team" otherwise they have no support.

and not necessarily swarm...an old saying goes "while wolves fight over a carcass, a mouse may sneak in to grab a scrap"

but as to something you said earlier...anyone in the group needs to be able to take leadership should the need arise.

if you and i were in a group and i was leading...what happens if i get sniped? you need to be able to step in and take charge.

thats why special forces soldiers each have a job on the team, yet everyone learns everyone elses job. just in case.

Well, if i can just borrow damocles sword for a minute, why don't you train up your loved ones to a reasonable standard? Even if they are not the type you could organise some camping,teach them some basic skills etc. You could even with hold or offer extra pocket money to your kids in an exchange for tasks learnt or completed? Just a thought. Failing that your bug out bag's gonna be pretty big!

I hear what you're saying, for me it's the fact that there's only a couple of people i know on this planet that i'd trust to be able to take care of themselves alongside me if i were to go "rambo" (not that i plan to, but if insurgency is a valid tactic to defeat an enemy....).

I move at night and lots of times it's without lights through rugged terrain. I avoid trails and places where travel is ""possible" preferring to stay concealed and in a place where nobody would ever think of traveling through due to terrain. Even a "casual" hike usually involves scaling rock walls and belly crawling through hundreds of yards of acacia and catclaw. The same kind of tactics let me flank the opposition effectively and appear behind opposing forces with sniper fire. I use these kind of tactics playing paintball against the US military grunts with much success.


Even excluding the warfare aspect, there's few people who could survive where i plan to go if any situation x includes society turning into a dangerous place. One other person i know can actually truly hike with me and keep up without crying, flipping out, and becoming part of the food chain. My geographically close family already lives off the grid away from civilization, so i wouldn't be extremely worried about them to take care of themselves. I wouldn't drag anybody except one truly solid friend along if it came down to true guerilla war, insurgents VS military, only because i only know one person who stands an equal or better chance than I at surviving. Anybody else i know, being on my team would be a death sentence.

I think the best thing you can do right now is teach others to be sufficient. Whenever i go out I try to demonstrate to anybody with me how to find food and water in the desert, and hope that if it comes down to it they can use the skills to better their chances.

*pouts*

I guess i'm going to have to get my group to march down the country paths single file and get them to learn teamwork - but i'm hardily the kind of guy you'd think of as a leader.

It's that guy who looks like Rambo you want, not me.

no one said YOU had to be the leader...however it is incumbant upon you to be ABLE to be the leader.

and if it takes marching them down a path single file to get them to learn team work...yes, thats what you need to do.

life in a suvival situation is simple. you contribute or you starve. it could be as little as making sure the shelters were sound or gathering sticks for firewood. but, if youre part of the group in that situation, you work unless youre physically incapable of it (or mentally)

btw...guys that look like rambo have a hard time hiding behind the younger trees...they just too damn big. and they eat a lot more than everyone else

Your idea of what's going to happen sounds pretty specific, have you subscribed to some theory on a shtf scenario? If so, which one, or do you have a link to it?

I'm just curious.

I'm with Dezert as far as trying to fight the enemy. I really only know one person I would want with me, and right now, we're geographically disconnected. I know that I can count on him in a firefight and he knows he can count on me. The problem is, I know that we'll inevitably have others with us, including my wife.

That's why I won't be on the front lines of the rebellion if I can help it. I'll be trying to keep her alive, at least away from any fighting.

He's right in getting them prepared if you need to. My wife and I go hiking in the desert and the mountains often and continue to learn about survival here. Just got to keep getting her out and get her into the best shape of her life. We could be on the run for awhile.

well i wont speak for anyone but me but a SHTF scenario can be anything from downfall to society to trapped in a car in a blizzard in south dakota at 3am in january.

plane crash in the mountains...

pretty much anything that disconnects you from a source of food/shelter/clothing is a SHTF scenario and the more you know the better your chances are

but thats just me

i mean the list of skills you should have is incredible, but you'd be suprised how well you can do with little more than some common sense and an ability to keep your cool.

If necessity is the mother of invention, then you should also aqaint yourself with ingenuity, necessity's uncle

reply to post by citizen smith


LOL that is very true.

and never forget the wise words of murphy. (he was a grunt dontcha know?)

Originally posted by Damocles
reply to post by citizen smith

 

LOL that is very true.

and never forget the wise words of murphy. (he was a grunt dontcha know?)

"Whatever can go wrong, will go wrong, at the worst possible time, in the worst possible way"

One thing to remember, the best leaders are usually the best followers also. What I meen by that is to be a good leader, you also have to be able to take orders. It is not always about "group think" but you always need to think about the group -- even a group of one.
The possibility of survival goes up in direct proportion to the number of people in the group -- even the weekest link will have something to offer the group, whether it's gathering fire wood or just staying by the fire and cooking, everyone can have a job to do.
There are situations where it may be necessary to do some recon, but in most cases just hunkering down will get you through.
If it becomes necessary to go on the offence then you do it smart, recon - regroup - then use extream prejudice. Get in and get out - quickly and quietly and don't try to do it alone.
I know several people who can do more damage with a knife in the dark than most people could do with an M-60 but those skills are limited in usefullness in most Sit-X's.