How old is civilization?, page 1

Originally posted by Nohup

That would probably be the Shoosh.

dooroodiran.blogspot.com...

There may have been some slightly older cultures that existed but didn't leave behind many artifacts because they may have constructed their houses out of dirt or wood or animal hides, so nothing much would be left of them. Archeologists are always digging around trying to find them.

Nohup,

The usual definition of civilization cannot be applied in the case of the Susa because they had no writing, as far as we know.

Your linked site says:

By civilization, we mean civilized city government or city state or Empire or Kingdom or any type of local civilized system.

Most anthropologists require quite a bit more from a culture than this before they can classify it as a civilization.
I sort of like a combination of these:

In 1936, the archeologist V. Gordon Childe published his book Man Makes Himself. Childe identified several elements which he believed were essential for a civilization to exist. He included: the plow, wheeled cart and draft animals, sailing ships, the smelting of copper and bronze, a solar calendar, writing, standards of measurement, irrigation ditches, specialized craftsmen, urban centers and a surplus of food necessary to support non-agricultural workers who lived within the walls of the city. Childe's list concerns human achievements and pays less attention to human organization.

Another historian agreed with Childe but added that a true definition of civilization should also include money collected through taxes, a privileged ruling class, a centralized government and a national religious or priestly class. Such a list, unlike Childe's, highlights human organization. In 1955, Clyde Kluckhohn argued that there were three essential criteria for civilization: towns containing more than 5000 people, writing, and monumental ceremonial centers. Finally, the archeologist and anthropologist Robert M. Adams argued for a definition of civilization as a society with functionally interrelated sets of social institutions: class stratification based on the ownership and control of production, political and religious hierarchies complementing each other in the central administration of territorially organized states and lastly, a complex division of labor, with skilled workers, soldiers and officials existing alongside the great mass of peasant producers.

Source

Agreement must be reached on the definition before one can argue for or against a "lost civilization," right?

Funny how that criterion is rarely met here at ATS. Makes me wonder sometimes if people arguing about lost civilizations realize that their opinions may not be all that different, just their definitions!

Anyway, if you like really old artifacts for "proof" of civilization, you could do worse than to consider the Jomon. As far as we can tell, they invented pottery. Read the following and be astonished:

It has long been known that the Jomon pottery of Japan goes back a very long way. (Jomon means Twisted cord, so this is the pottery made with twisted cord decoration.)

Recently however pottery has been found that dates back to 13,000 years ago, which, if you use the latest radiocarbon calibration, gives a date of 16,000 years ago. (or 14,000 BC).

Source

Holy crap - middle of the end of the last Ice Age!

Harte

[edit on 3/28/2008 by Harte]