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Basra / DC Residents Asked to Give Up Weapons

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posted on Mar, 28 2008 @ 07:20 AM
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BAGHDAD (AP) -- Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki's office says the Iraqi government has given residents of Basra until April 8 to turn over "heavy and medium-size weapons" in return for a reward.

Government adviser Sadiq al-Rikabi says the deadline is separate from a three-day ultimatum for gunmen in the southern town to surrender their arms and renounce violence or face harsher measures. That expires later Friday.

The move instead appears to be aimed at noncombatants who may have weapons like machine guns and grenade launchers, either for smuggling purposes or to sell to militants or criminal gangs.


Full Story

Does anyone else see a parallel between this action and the Gun ban they're trying to institute in D.C.? Turn over your guns and we'll reward you, if you don't face serious consequences. We know what will happen to the people in Basra once they're disarmed. Home invasions, round ups of alleged dissidents, beatings, shootings, etc.

There has been a troop buildup in D.C. over the last year with no good explanation as to why. Could this be part of a plan for disarmanent of the residents? It'd be so much easier to control an unarmed population than one that has the ability to fight back.

Here's a few links that might be of interest. Put on your tinfoil hats and let me know what you think!


www.wesh.com...

www.abovetopsecret.com...

www.abovetopsecret.com...

[edit on 3/28/08 by LLoyd45]




posted on Mar, 28 2008 @ 10:03 AM
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I see this sort of thinking on ATS at lot, but I still don't really get it.

So, so many countries in the world don't permit guns in homes, countries that are arguably far more democratic and politically fair/stable than the US despite all this.

Yet everybody is freaked out that if guns leave US homes, suddenly you'd all be powerless. Here in Australia (just using it because I live here and know it...) I'm exceedingly happy about the lack of guns. Full-on illegal gang war sort of stuff in Sydney aside, you don't get any school shootings here and that's just one example off the top of my head. The most you get is perhaps someone trying to stab people... and even if they do its 1-2 people before everyone runs and calls the cops/overpowers the criminal. You don't get the sort of opportunity you do in a country like America to spray 50 people with bullets in a few seconds and then go on to do more damage through walls, or while people are running... You get the idea.

Why would you need guns anyway? If you're going to fight against the military, yeah you'll put up some resistance but you'll still lose, particularly in the US where the firepower is fairly ridiculous (something we seem to be told every day for no particular reason). What are the guns going to do to a few tanks and whatnot? Or hell, even the lasers mounted on humvees/jets that were just mentioned on one of these forums. Good luck!

I know we can all imagine elaborate scenarios where you'd win but ergh... It's a bit far gone. Additionally if the country has fallen apart to the point where the majority of citizens are rising up physically against their government, then the country is really in trouble and during these situations you end up getting military forces disbanding/turning on the government because they don't want to fight their own citizens. You also generally get total economic collapses too because if you kill your populations there goes all of that. You can't just keep funding war through war, at least not if it's on your own country.

I mean, I see that perhaps a one in a billion situation could erupt where having guns would save the day, but is having them every other day worth that? The crime in the US because of guns, or injuries etc is amazing. It's a hell of a lot easier to threaten someone with a gun than a knife...

I realise I've now turned this into a "Guns in the US: GOOD OR BAD?" debate, but I think that was inevitable because this topic brings it up directly.

Why are you so afraid of your government? Why aren't people in the US taking democratic, peaceful or legal actions against the government there if theres a problem? I saw almost nobody even amongst the American citizens speaking out over Bush just eating up more and more power.

Maybe talk of physical threats would be called for, if the political processes failed, but nobody even tried! Why not act peacefully and appropriately there? Why must you always have your finger on the trigger (literally and figuratively?) towards yourselves, and I suppose others too... Why? Why the paranoia?

Perhaps if the citizens of America had more solid faith in their own political systems and processes, none of this would be neccessary. We all hear about how patriotic Americans are, even globally, so if that's true why must you be ready to destroy yourselves at any given time?

Surely to have great faith and involvement in a solid political system is far more patriotic than having guns pointed inwardly and outwardly at all times, always on the watch for the next big threat. Reds under the beds. Terrorist cells in your local community. Next up? Corrupt government officials everywhere?

Where does the paranoia and fear end...? You speak of disarming the people, but hell you're already disarmed, controlled by fear from what I can see.

Heres to hoping this doesn't turn into a "My country is better than your country" slinging match. That's just my 2c on this.



posted on Mar, 28 2008 @ 10:38 AM
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our constitution gives us the right to own guns

the problem with guns in the U.S. is the illegal ones not the legal ones but the government doesn't stop the illegal ones, they want to take the legal ones which would make the ligitiment ppl defenceless against the criminals.

If the government was only doing their search for the illegal ones then our citizens would most likely go with it.But they want the legal ones also which goes against our rights as citizens.



posted on Mar, 28 2008 @ 10:47 AM
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We always have mind bullets to fall back on.



posted on Mar, 28 2008 @ 10:50 AM
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Originally posted by Duality
I see this sort of thinking on ATS at lot, but I still don't really get it.
It's fine with me if you don't get it. I always heard though, you should walk a mile in another man's/ woman's shoes before you judge him/her. From what I've heard Australia is a wonderful place to live, but unfortunately that all could change one day for your people as well. All it takes is for a little complacency to set in.


So, so many countries in the world don't permit guns in homes, countries that are arguably far more democratic and politically fair/stable than the US despite all this.
Our constitution gaurantees it's citizens the right to bear arms, and it has long been a tradition for Americans to do so. It wasn't our armies that won our independence, but the combined efforts of everyday, common people who realized sometimes words are not always a sufficient response to bullets being fired at you.


Yet everybody is freaked out that if guns leave US homes, suddenly you'd all be powerless. Here in Australia (just using it because I live here and know it...) I'm exceedingly happy about the lack of guns.
If everyone around you were unarmed, a system like your would work fine. Unfortunately, criminals don't obey the law. What would you do if your home was invade by armed gunmen? You could try to overpower them, but I doubt that would work. What's to become of your family, or you for that matter?


Full-on illegal gang war sort of stuff in Sydney aside, you don't get any school shootings here and that's just one example off the top of my head. The most you get is perhaps someone trying to stab people... and even if they do its 1-2 people before everyone runs and calls the cops/overpowers the criminal.
Crime is like cancer, it spreads. If you have it in Sydney, it won't take long for it take root elsewhere. America used to be a really nice place to live at one time too. An unarmed response will not help you against a gun, all it will do is get you killed.


You don't get the sort of opportunity you do in a country like America to spray 50 people with bullets in a few seconds and then go on to do more damage through walls, or while people are running... You get the idea.
Not everyone in America is a gangster like you see on MTV. Many people who own guns are very responsible people. Only criminals use their firearms to commit crimes, the rest of us use them for hunting and self-defense.


Why would you need guns anyway? If you're going to fight against the military, yeah you'll put up some resistance but you'll still lose, particularly in the US where the firepower is fairly ridiculous (something we seem to be told every day for no particular reason). What are the guns going to do to a few tanks and whatnot? Or hell, even the lasers mounted on humvees/jets that were just mentioned on one of these forums. Good luck!
I use my guns for hunting and to protect my family from those who do not believe I have a right to be secure in my own home from violence. I have no intention of fighting against the military, it'd be suicide to do so. I have no Johnny Rambo fantasies, and I'm sure the majority of gun owners don't either.


mean, I see that perhaps a one in a billion situation could erupt where having guns would save the day, but is having them every other day worth that? The crime in the US because of guns, or injuries etc is amazing. It's a hell of a lot easier to threaten someone with a gun than a knife...
People kill people, not guns. They're a tool just like a wrench, a screwdriver, or a butcher's knife. People can be stabbed by a knife, should we ban all knives? My guns sit under lock and key, and are bothering no one.


you so afraid of your government? Why aren't people in the US taking democratic, peaceful or legal actions against the government there if theres a problem? I saw almost nobody even amongst the American citizens speaking out over Bush just eating up more and more power.
We've spoken out, but our cries have fallen on deaf ears unfortunately. We don't like our government's expansionist policies, but there's little we can do about it. Our country has been hijacked. Hopefully you'll never feel the same sense of powerless that many of here in the USA do.


Where does the paranoia and fear end...? You speak of disarming the people, but hell you're already disarmed, controlled by fear from what I can see.
It ends when the threat is removed. I'm sure Australia isn't Utopia either.





[edit on 3/28/08 by LLoyd45]



posted on Mar, 28 2008 @ 11:06 AM
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reply to post by rtcctr
 


The legal ones are great until used illegally, and by then it's too late.

Additionally, saying the constitution allows guns is really not much of a justification ethically, logically or morally. Yes, it's in there but as I'm sure any American will know there's an endless debate over whether it means the people as individuals or the people as a military force such as the US Army.

I would go so far as to say ownership of guns being in the constitution is totally illogical on an individual level and may I also add that it seems almost as if this law is being kept out of tradition. Are we left following traditions for the sake of tradition now? I thought most of the developed world was beyond this now.

What I'm more importantly trying to get at, is what is the explanation behind guns meaning more political/individual freedom? Does it work? Apparently not because the American people seem to be more and more paranoid about their own government. There are more and more complaints about the checks and balances that were once in place going downhill...

Constitutional right or not, is it logical? Is it justified?, particularly in 2008 onwards? Do the benefits outweigh the costs? Perhaps the founders of America did not forsee the difficulties with gun control and 'accident prevention' that America now faces given its amazing population size these days. Perhaps they also did not envisage the horrifying efficiency with which today's weapons can kill, not just one target but many.

Relating specifically to this thread: Does taking away guns really infringe on your every day freedoms, or is it simply a case of not wanting to change the status quo?

Also before somebody presents this point... Yes restricting guns technically restricts freedom, in the same ways that perhaps saying murder is wrong and illegal technically restricts freedoms. Restricting anything at all infringes on freedoms, but without at least some guidelines to follow societies fall apart and few people would disagree with this... Aside from fairly extreme Anarchists.

Would you really even miss the weapons on a daily basis? What is their use? To defend yourselves from other people with guns? Ergh... It's almost as if the laws have created a bigger problem in trying to solve one that was almost nonexistant in the first place.

If it's to turn on the government, why should you need to? Also, how often does this ever occur and as I said how effective would such weapons even be against the 'best military force on Earth'?

This whole situation absolutely screams fear. Fear in the first place, the reason for having the guns in the constitution.

Fear of the government or others, now with guns (even more scary!) one day turning on you, the reason for keeping them.

Fear of now losing these dangerous guns (what if ONE person keeps a gun and turns on us all!), the reason for resisting these changes.

In the end, you have to fear absolutely everthing forever or you have to sit back and say: Yes, you know what the world is a dangerous place. Someone might drive past tomorrow and shoot me to pieces, but that's no reason to live in fear of it 24/7, that's no reason to keep the very weapons i fear in my home every day, causing even more fear in my community, increasing the danger, increasing the paranoia.

It's all a vicious cycle of fear and as I said before, for a country that keeps worrying about being controlled by fear (come on ATS members this is your thing!), America seems to already be controlled by it and it looks as if it has been since it's founding.

As always, this i just my opinion and I don't mean to unconstructively flame a country or it's people. I just believe there is huge room for improvement on this front.



posted on Mar, 28 2008 @ 11:14 AM
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Now I am no expert, but wasn't that whole right to bare arms thing because the founding fathers wanted the US to have militias and not a standing army, for the very reasons that are happening today. Wouldn't the creating of a standing army make the reasons for the right kind of moot. I am not anti-gun, in fact I'm a gun guy myself, but stricter gun laws in Canada sure seem to help. Yes I can't carry a handgun, but if I go through a strict process i can get them. It is just made difficult. That seems fine by me as you should have to put some effort in. It seems to have helped alot here.



posted on Mar, 28 2008 @ 11:23 AM
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reply to post by Tenebrous
 


That's an extremely good point...

Also, LLoyd45 I can see some of what you're saying but why do you need to protect yourself or your family with weapons anyway?

All of this stuff, as mentioned... frequently... seems to stem from fear and even a breakdown of systems. Where are the police? If they don't respond fast enough or help, then that is an issue to fix and improve.

Innocent citizens shouldn't be putting themselves in the line of fire, or even harming others when there are forces in place to take care of this in a well-trained and well-coordinated manner. Not to mention the increase in the rates of serious crimes that having easy access to guns causes...

You mention that it all stops when the threats stop, you also mention that Australia isn't a utopia and that's right, it isn't. It never will be, the US won't be either and that is exactly the point I'm making.

Nowhere will ever be 100% safe, even if America destroys all other people in every other nation, it'll eventually just collapse inwards, cannabilising it's own populations. All it takes is minute divisions in religious beliefs, in ethical beliefs, in skin colour, in politicial ideologies... God, the list goes on.

Even if we wipe those out, hell, why not genes too? If you're of inferior genes perhaps you're predisposed to criminality, perhaps we need guns to protect us 'good genes folk' from these 'lower quality Americans'.

Obviously that last part is taking it to an extreme, but that's the nature of this discussion. Having weapons in this way just leads to constant escalation of the issues. The threat will never be over as long as we can imagine it and even worse, individuals will always exploit our fears to gain power or infulence or whatever else you can think of.

If we are all a freaking hive-mind with nothing to fear from ourselves, do we then point our guns at the sky?

I think I've made my point. I'm going to end up making this thread a case of "TL;DR".



posted on Mar, 28 2008 @ 01:00 PM
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Originally posted by Duality

Also, LLoyd45 I can see some of what you're saying but why do you need to protect yourself or your family with weapons anyway?
Mainly because the majority of criminals that have the nerve to invade an occupied home are armed, and intend to do you grievous bodily harm.

By the way, You never did tell me how you would personally handle that situation without a firearm. Maybe you intend to use harsh language or catch their bullets with your chest..


All of this stuff, as mentioned... frequently... seems to stem from fear and even a breakdown of systems. Where are the police? If they don't respond fast enough or help, then that is an issue to fix and improve.
Most reasonable people fear being a victim of crime. The police are too few and far between to be of any real assistance to you in an emergency. Criminals unfortunately don't wait for law enforcement to arrive before attempting to victimize you..


Innocent citizens shouldn't be putting themselves in the line of fire, or even harming others when there are forces in place to take care of this in a well-trained and well-coordinated manner.
No, They shouldn't, but unfortunately the police can't be everywhere all the time.


Not to mention the increase in the rates of serious crimes that having easy access to guns causes...
I seem to remember reading about how violent crimes escalated in Australia after the government began limition gun ownership back in 1996..


Be that as it may, at a cost of $500 million, out of an estimated 7 million firearms (of which 2.8 million were prohibited), only 640,000 guns were surrendered to police. What has been the result? Same as in England. Like in Great Britain, crime Down Under has escalated. Twelve months after the law was implemented in 1997, there has been a 44 percent increase in armed robberies; an 8.6 percent increase in aggravated assaults; and, a 3.2 percent increase in homicides. That same year in the state of Victoria, there was a 300 percent increase in homicides committed with firearms. The following year, robberies increased almost 60 percent in South Australia. By 1999, assaults had increased in New South Wales by almost 20 percent.

Two years after the ban, there have been further increases in crime: armed robberies by 73 percent; unarmed robberies by 28 percent; kidnappings by 38 percent; assaults by 17 percent; manslaughter by 29 percent, according to the Australian Bureau of Statistics.

And consider the fact that over the previous 25-year period, Australia had shown a steady decrease both in homicide with firearms and armed robbery --- until the ban.



Link

Still want to tell me how well gun control works and reduces crime rates?

I think I've made my point. I'm going to end up making this thread a case of "TL;DR". I'm not sure what point that was, but if you're happy, so Am I.



[edit on 3/28/08 by LLoyd45]



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