It looks like you're using an Ad Blocker.

Please white-list or disable in your ad-blocking tool.

Thank you.


Some features of ATS will be disabled while you continue to use an ad-blocker.


The surge was bunk, and today proves it.

page: 1
<<   2 >>

log in


posted on Mar, 28 2008 @ 01:50 AM
today is an important day, its the day Iraq has failed.
For the past 4-5 months, many people on this board have been declaring success in Iraq based on the surge.

Well, many returned fired and told the bold truth, that the reason violence lulled, was purely because of sad'rs ceasefire.

its finally been resolved:


WASHINGTON - The escalation of fighting between Mahdi Army militiamen and their Shi'ite rivals, which could mark the end of Muqtada al-Sadr's self-imposed ceasefire, also exposes General David Petraeus' strategy for controlling Muqtada's forces as a failure.

The signs that the Madhi Army will no longer remain passive mark a major defeat for the US military command's strategy aimed at weakening the Mahdi Army.


Thursday: 225 Iraqis, 1 US Soldier, 3 US Contractors Killed; 538 Iraqis Wounded

US President George W Bush has praised Iraqi PM Nouri Maliki's "bold decision" in ordering Iraqi forces to crack down on Shia militias in the city of Basra.
Heavy fighting continued in the city for a third day between militias and security forces, with violence in other parts of southern Iraq and Baghdad.
The clashes have claimed more than 130 lives since Tuesday.
Mr Maliki vowed that he would continue the fight against the militias for as long as was necessary.
'No retreat'
"We have made up our minds to enter this battle and we will continue until the end. No retreat," Mr Maliki said in a speech broadcast on Iraqi state television.
Thousands in Baghdad demanded the Iraqi PM quit


Iraq’s Prime Minister was staring into the abyss today after his operation to crush militia strongholds in Basra stalled, members of his own security forces defected and district after district of his own capital fell to Shia militia gunmen.

With the threat of a civil war looming in the south, Nouri al-Maliki’s police chief in Basra narrowly escaped assassination in the crucial port city, while in Baghdad, the spokesman for the Iraqi side of the US military surge was kidnapped by gunmen and his house burnt to the ground.

Saboteurs also blew up one of Iraq's two main oil pipelines from Basra, cutting at least a third of the exports from the city which provides 80 per cent of government revenue, a clear sign that the militias — who siphon significant sums off the oil smuggling trade — would not stop at mere insurrection.

Sadr has come out of the woodworks with a vengance, I also read that the Iraqi PM was ordered out of Basra, his compound was surrounded, and America helicopters came to rescue him..

Sorry to say, the surge was bunk.
Alsadar' controls Iraq, and he's ordered his militia to take it back

the people say this:

In Baghdad, tens of thousands of supporters of Mr Sadr, whose base of support is the Shia poor, marched through the streets shouting slogans demanding that Mr Maliki's government be overthrown. "We demand the downfall of the Maliki government," said one of the marchers, Hussein Abu Ali. "It does not represent the people. It represents Bush and Cheney."

Baghdad is slowly falling to the Mahdi army,
Troops have torn off uniforms and joined sides.

The real Iraq war is coming

US V Mahdi army

posted on Mar, 28 2008 @ 03:33 AM
Apparently they are fighting over oil city. The surge, shock and awe, gonna sick my granny on you, all a bunch of putrid nonsense. Loved how sprout tried to do the Reagan thing with his last news conference. Steer the boat, keep the eyes on the horizon. Truth is he couldn't steer his arse out of a paper bag. Good money, good lives, good blood anon seeking a different outcome.
The definition of insanity.

posted on Mar, 28 2008 @ 01:23 PM
The more we send over the more they recruit and train its a never ending battle

posted on Mar, 28 2008 @ 07:58 PM
Just leave this pathetic society to ruins. Apparently, all they are capable of doing is kill each other. Leave them to their misery. If they mess with us at home. send a few tomahawks their way...

posted on Mar, 28 2008 @ 08:18 PM
But we are laying the foundation for peace don't you know. Like a carnival huckster, just another 50 cents, and another, and another, you're almost there! Get that big snoopy for the missus. You're almost there. Pigeon poop.

posted on Mar, 31 2008 @ 02:09 AM
lest we forget that is the city the British said was secure and then they promptly pulled out and that was what before or during the surge i forget... the point though is that this has little to do with the surge except that the surge drove them out of Baghdad in large numbers.

and don't start on Baghdad being unsafe until we can secure detroit of LA or even our capital

i think iraq is actualy safer for our soldiers now than most of the large cities in the US are.

but hey what do i know I just have been there and seen it for my self...

I can tell you that the news only provides the public with one tenth of the total news coming out of that country. if you dont believe me just watch your local news and take note of what they do and do not report.

posted on Mar, 31 2008 @ 02:15 AM
I agree,
Thats why you start reading blogs and news directly from Iraqi's, or the resistance themselves.

Even the worst American city is 10 times better than Iraq.

But I am sad to say im shocked at Al Sadr pulling his militia of the streets.
It is a shock, he had the government on the ropes.

he had the support on the streets.

was he reigned in for the bigger battle approaching, where Iran will use him as a direct proxy to cripple the Iraqi dug in, american occupation?

killing of al sadar and his men now, will mean the americans have it easy in Iraq when the real fight starts.
keeping him there to cut supply lines and pester troops will be better in the final battle.

I feel Malaki will be assasinated shortly.

It will be the same result as the Mahdi army winning, with less bloodshed and exposure.

posted on Mar, 31 2008 @ 05:10 AM
reply to post by pugachev

Just leave this pathetic society to ruins. Apparently, all they are capable of doing is kill each other. Leave them to their misery. If they mess with us at home. send a few tomahawks their way...

Au contraire, Mr Pugachev.

First, on the topic.
I agree the SURGE was bunkum! It’s my own view that it was a device coldly calculated by Bush43 to spare his sorry *** from sharp Congressional oversight following his rebuke at the polls in ‘06. For him, Bush43, the issue was HOW could he prolong HIS war until the next president who would perforce SHARE some of the blame for the unmitigated debacle we charitably call the Iraq War. I call it the Second Punitive Expedition to Iraq.

For Bush43
the issue came down to TIME. How to escape the summer of '07. The US fiscal year ends September 30. If Bush43 can somehow avoid close public scrutiny of his (mis)conduct of the War until the ‘07-‘08 Fiscal Year starting on October 1, he is home free! Nothing Congress or GOD can do will end the war on his watch.

How do you get from January 3 - NEW Congress takes office - to the next fiscal year, October 1?
The Surge! A PR masterstroke!

Americans are dedicated
to fair play and we do want to see the War in Iraq succeed although we have sharply differing POV on what amounts to success. Although one could argue that raising the American troop level from 130,000 to 160,000 was merely an incremental increase and not a REAL surge - like doubling the force - that is just one more prerogative the White House enjoys being able to define the issues. In this case setting up a STRAW MAN for debate! The Surge. Congress speaks with 435 voices, the White House with but one. Advantage WH! Every time.

The ploy worked,
Congress was stymied all during the ‘07 summer. Now Bush43 cares not a wit what happens anywhere. New Orleans. Of Mosul. Wall Street. Tibet. "He's outta here!" Leaving behind 4,000 KIA in Iraq and counting. He has escaped legal and moral accountability while in office and can avoid answering hard questions until American’s are so tired of Iraq that we leave it as we did finally leave Saigon, Vietnam. The American Tripartite Dictatorship - Bush43, VP Cheney and Herr Rumsfeld - will escape public repudiation for their ‘01-‘08 contrivances. The world has been struck by A Perfect Storm!

After PM Blair
was driven from office by his “lapdog” support of Bush43's irrational policies - preemptive war - torture - rendition - Abu Ghriab - new PM Gordon Brown had to STOP LOSS of British KIAs or else see the Labor Government FALL. The Brits withdrew from Basra late last year. The Brits, some 3,000 strong - a brigade - are now ensconced in a safe area 20 miles outside of Basra awaiting their return home which I predict will be on November 5, 2008. Brown has a bit of cover on UK losses in Afghan because there a NATO force is deployed so US Central Command - the Texas Oval Office - is not in total charge. I believe PM Rudd of Australia has probably set the same date for the withdrawal of their 500 soldiers. The Coalition of the Willing has finally gone KIA!

On the Iraqi people.
5,000 years in Mesopotamia and still running! There is nothing wrong in Iraq that can be fixed in W-DC. When we are gone from Iraq, and STOP trying to impose a government we vetted early on, and let the Iraqi choose their own government, the so-called insurgency will end. Either of its own momentum or because the Iraqi do not WANT or NEED them further. As in most places around the world, the locals LOVE Americans but HATE our government. And sadly, Americans for the most part confuse the two.

[edit on 3/31/2008 by donwhite]

posted on Mar, 31 2008 @ 01:25 PM

Originally posted by Agit8dChop
I agree,
Thats why you start reading blogs and news directly from Iraqi's, or the resistance themselves.

well the problem with this, is that the information they provide is out of context to the events that happened. ohh how i love to see the pictures of dead iraqis without any proof of how they died.... see haditha.

he had the support on the streets.

the problem in Iraq is the same problem in America.

what i mean is that the people are the same.

for example look at how people behaved after Katrina...specifically the looting, i am sure that most of those people would have never stolen anything (major), but everyone else was doing it... its got that heard mentality.

second, the insurgents/ terrorists have proven that if you are not SUPPORTING them you ARE THE ENEMY. so with no coalition forces in the city and a police force that is inept, out gunned (by bombs, RPG's, and such), and for the most part not that dedicated, and that just the ones that aren't actually insurgents themselves.

but, yeah the puppet strings lead beck to Iran

posted on Mar, 31 2008 @ 01:28 PM
reply to post by Agit8dChop

So what would be an alternative plan for winning in Iraq?

[edit on 31-3-2008 by Alxandro]

posted on Mar, 31 2008 @ 04:07 PM
reply to post by Alxandro

So what would be an alternative plan for winning in Iraq?

I suggest we need an Attitude Adjustment. “Winning” is a bad word in the context of the turmoil unleashed in Iraq on March 18, 2003 and shortly thereafter. With little knowledge and even less forethought, we tore apart the fabric that had bound Iraq together since 1922 in less than 30 days. Operating ad hoc out of the Pentagon and the White House, we made first one mistake - allowed looting of the ancient artifacts of Iraq - with another - abolished the Army - and further compounded the misunderstood task we were shortly to face by banning the only people who knew how to run Iraq, the Ba’athists. America was driven by two major forces - ignorance and ideology. A dangerous combination anywhere, anytime.

As I have declared elsewhere, the Iraqi people have been systematically garroted by the American Tripartite Dictatorship - Bush43, VP Cheney and Herr Rumsfeld - the Perfect Storm!

Now that the United States has created maximum disorder out of order, offering evidence if not proof of the horrid outcome of a Second Law of Thermodynamics first gone awry then unleashed on social institutions. it is no time to talk about “winning.” Surviving might be more appropriate. Let us recall that first we vetted all the candidates for office before the first Iraq election. Then we wrote the Iraqi Constitution although our surrogates claim to have had input though no one doubts every dot and tittle was approved by L. Paul Bremmer, American Pro-Consul for Iraq.

We - I say “we” but I mean “they” - Iraq needs BOTTOM UP leadership and not more of the TOP DOWN kind that America is so quick to furnish. We have put the cart before the horse. Local governance comes before national or federal governance. We tried to do it on the CHEAP but it has not worked and it will not work. One example: we constantly lament the lack of good policing, but we overlook that in most of Iraq there are not yet courts, and few or no impartial judges before who the police can take suspects for hearings and due process of law. Yes, Iraqi also want DUE PROCESS of law even if the Bush43 clique does not. Police without a justice system is a half full glass and tempts police to be judge and jury.

The sad news for Iraq (and for many more potential American KIAs) is that Bush43 is now disengaging from his two terms as president. That would be good news but for the mess he has created at home and abroad. Unlike birds that don’t soil their own nests, he has done that and now he wants to walk off into history leaving us to clean up behind him. As if nothing hd ever happened! Advice? Wait until January 20, 2009, to come back to this issue again. It’s a waste until then.

[edit on 3/31/2008 by donwhite]

posted on Mar, 31 2008 @ 05:00 PM
reply to post by donwhite

Is that your way of saying we should lose instead?

Yes mistakes were made but could you imagine what the critics would be saying if the war was executed flawlessly?
Yeah, they'd be saying things like "the U.S. of A. is such an effective killing machine they've got war down to a science".

I'm with you about the looting of ancient artifacts.
The conspiracy theorist in me feels the elite masters do things with a "kill two birds with one stone" technique to maximize results in one swoop, but another side of me keeps asking, what if all these theories are wrong?

Truth is, we don't know for sure.

The Laws of Irony really do exist because if you take an event or situation of any kind and regardless of where you stand on THAT issue and whether you are for or against IT, IT will always develops into ironic twists and turns of unforeseen consequences as IT continues to evolve.

This war is no different because even though you, and many more anti US folks like you, would much rather lose this war and always seems to salivate when new figures are released on the Death Toll in Iraq, you all should at least be grateful that your children will not have to share the World with Uday and Qusay.

I feel we still don't know everything there is to know about why we went into Iraq, and we probably won't ever know, but I have a gut feeling information will be slowly revealed or leaked out over the next several years that will confirm that as painful and as exepnsive as it was, it was still the right thing to do.

posted on Mar, 31 2008 @ 06:26 PM
We cant win!.

How can you possibly win when youve murdered and maimed so many people?

Militia's, yes, we can offer them a rosey period, hand in your weapons, return home and you wont be punished for your militia activites.

But Widows, moms, dads, sons, daughters, aunties, uncles, grandma's, grandpa's, cousins, friends whove lost loved ones... you think they can offer 'us' the same?

'' Ok, turn in your tanks, and we'll forget about our children being blown up ''

This adventure was only going to be succesful if it took a few months.
We had to go in there, remove him, setup security and immediately place a 'commoner' in charge, to show Iraqi's that its really THEIR country.

Instead, after being there 5 long years, the country is ruined, the people are angry and the massgraves are starting to represent saddams days

We, ' The West ' Have to accept the fact, we messed up bad, and its going to haunt us.

The longer we stay, the worse that 'haunt' is going to be, economically, security wise and world superiority wise.

We have to leave NOW!
We have to dedicate our industry to the Iraqi's. We have to build them a nice new country and offer bucket loads of cash and incentives for settlements on the hundreds of thousands of murder charges we are guilty off.

We have to try, convict and prosecute the current US Administration.
Just to show the world, that the US PEOPLE dont allow these sort of crimes against humanity.

If, After everything everyone has seen and heard, bush is still allowed to ride off into the sunset holding his corporate ties... then the American people are no better than the criminal himself.

And the world will take note.

posted on Mar, 31 2008 @ 06:29 PM

Originally posted by Alxandro
[I feel we still don't know everything there is to know about why we went into Iraq, and we probably won't ever know, but I have a gut feeling information will be slowly revealed or leaked out over the next several years that will confirm that as painful and as exepnsive as it was, it was still the right thing to do.

Your kidding huh?

The ONLY, ONLY plausable reason for attacking a country in the fashion we did is

- If they attacked us first
- If they had a nuclear weapon aimed, prepped and on countdown to fire at us

Thats it.

Any, ANY OTHER REASON is not a reason.

In this administrations case,I suppose you can add

- Corporate profits
- Oil revenue
- Teritorial control

posted on Mar, 31 2008 @ 06:47 PM
Iraq war nr 3, the occupation, was lost the day that US forces step to Baghdad without a plan how to keep it.

When Iraq national museum was lost to robbery, was the day that US lost the war.

US failed because its own greed of victory.

[edit on 31-3-2008 by JanusFIN]

posted on Mar, 31 2008 @ 07:00 PM
Oh yes, oil revenue.

I'd like to know what kind of bicycle you ride everyday.

posted on Mar, 31 2008 @ 07:03 PM
As I understand it, the reason for the recent (and now ending) lull in violence was that the US was basically paying-off the various factions to stop fighting.

The surged was well-time to coincide with the mass-bribery to make the govt. look effective.

I suppose the money dried-up or the factions decided it wasn't enough.

posted on Mar, 31 2008 @ 09:09 PM
A 250 Kawasaki, and a Mongoose pushbike.
How about you?
I havent owned a car in 4 years.

posted on Mar, 31 2008 @ 09:15 PM

I think Sadr pulled hi s people off the streets to prove that he is in a command, of sorts. That there is structure to his group. They follow his orders.

posted on Apr, 1 2008 @ 12:31 AM
I agree that to "win" in Iraq they need to step up and take charge and we should put more pressure on them to do that.

however we must remember that the war in Iraq is not occurring in a vacuum.

Iran, Kuwait, Turkey, Syria, and Saudi Arabia wait in the wings to carve up that country if we leave Iraq the way it is.

I think it is funny that most of the people that criticize the US for staying in Iraq turn around and in the next breath complain about how the US has a record of leaving bad situations only half done and in a worse position than before we got there (see complaints about post pull out vietnam, the contras, and bay of pigs.)

the Iraqi's have an expression for that
"he is talking out of both sides of his mouth"

ohh, and by the way any number of the civilian and military casualties in Iraq that are not posted by the US or coalition military are most likely false...
the Us's body counts are backed up by official documents.

yes, even when the US forces respond to random dead bobdies they have to write a report on what happened.

so i do not believe for one second that astronomical number about innocent civilians killed.

also, i have seen people get killed that were "innocent" until we noticed that the cell phone that he had on his body had the phone number to an IED that had been defused earlier that day int eh phones memory for speed dial. that my freind is not an innocent person.

also, here is something to think about. the military does not stand for any hint of illegal activities by our troops. ask a combat soldier how many time the IG (inspector general) investigators had questioned him about a complaint (99% of them are false) from an Iraqi national.

new topics

top topics

<<   2 >>

log in