Apparently they are fighting over oil city. The surge, shock and awe, gonna sick my granny on you, all a bunch of putrid nonsense. Loved how sprout
tried to do the Reagan thing with his last news conference. Steer the boat, keep the eyes on the horizon. Truth is he couldn't steer his arse out of
a paper bag. Good money, good lives, good blood anon seeking a different outcome.
The definition of insanity.
The surge was bunk, and today proves it., page 1
privacy
Topic started on 28-3-2008 @ 01:50 AM by Agit8dChop
today is an important day, its the day Iraq has failed.
For the past 4-5 months, many people on this board have been declaring success in Iraq based on the surge.
Well, many returned fired and told the bold truth, that the reason violence lulled, was purely because of sad'rs ceasefire.
its finally been resolved:
Wednesday:
Thursday:
Friday:
news.bbc.co.uk...
www.atimes.com...
Sadr has come out of the woodworks with a vengance, I also read that the Iraqi PM was ordered out of Basra, his compound was surrounded, and America helicopters came to rescue him..
Sorry to say, the surge was bunk.
Alsadar' controls Iraq, and he's ordered his militia to take it back
the people say this:
Baghdad is slowly falling to the Mahdi army,
Troops have torn off uniforms and joined sides.
The real Iraq war is coming
US V Mahdi army
For the past 4-5 months, many people on this board have been declaring success in Iraq based on the surge.
Well, many returned fired and told the bold truth, that the reason violence lulled, was purely because of sad'rs ceasefire.
its finally been resolved:
Wednesday:
WASHINGTON - The escalation of fighting between Mahdi Army militiamen and their Shi'ite rivals, which could mark the end of Muqtada al-Sadr's self-imposed ceasefire, also exposes General David Petraeus' strategy for controlling Muqtada's forces as a failure.
The signs that the Madhi Army will no longer remain passive mark a major defeat for the US military command's strategy aimed at weakening the Mahdi Army.
Thursday:
Thursday: 225 Iraqis, 1 US Soldier, 3 US Contractors Killed; 538 Iraqis Wounded
US President George W Bush has praised Iraqi PM Nouri Maliki's "bold decision" in ordering Iraqi forces to crack down on Shia militias in the city of Basra.
Heavy fighting continued in the city for a third day between militias and security forces, with violence in other parts of southern Iraq and Baghdad.
The clashes have claimed more than 130 lives since Tuesday.
Mr Maliki vowed that he would continue the fight against the militias for as long as was necessary.
'No retreat'
"We have made up our minds to enter this battle and we will continue until the end. No retreat," Mr Maliki said in a speech broadcast on Iraqi state television.
Thousands in Baghdad demanded the Iraqi PM quit
Friday:
Iraq’s Prime Minister was staring into the abyss today after his operation to crush militia strongholds in Basra stalled, members of his own security forces defected and district after district of his own capital fell to Shia militia gunmen.
With the threat of a civil war looming in the south, Nouri al-Maliki’s police chief in Basra narrowly escaped assassination in the crucial port city, while in Baghdad, the spokesman for the Iraqi side of the US military surge was kidnapped by gunmen and his house burnt to the ground.
Saboteurs also blew up one of Iraq's two main oil pipelines from Basra, cutting at least a third of the exports from the city which provides 80 per cent of government revenue, a clear sign that the militias — who siphon significant sums off the oil smuggling trade — would not stop at mere insurrection.
news.bbc.co.uk...
www.atimes.com...
Sadr has come out of the woodworks with a vengance, I also read that the Iraqi PM was ordered out of Basra, his compound was surrounded, and America helicopters came to rescue him..
Sorry to say, the surge was bunk.
Alsadar' controls Iraq, and he's ordered his militia to take it back
the people say this:
In Baghdad, tens of thousands of supporters of Mr Sadr, whose base of support is the Shia poor, marched through the streets shouting slogans demanding that Mr Maliki's government be overthrown. "We demand the downfall of the Maliki government," said one of the marchers, Hussein Abu Ali. "It does not represent the people. It represents Bush and Cheney."
Baghdad is slowly falling to the Mahdi army,
Troops have torn off uniforms and joined sides.
The real Iraq war is coming
US V Mahdi army
reply posted on 31-3-2008 @ 05:10 AM by donwhite
reply to post by pugachev
Au contraire, Mr Pugachev.
First, on the topic. I agree the SURGE was bunkum! It’s my own view that it was a device coldly calculated by Bush43 to spare his sorry *** from sharp Congressional oversight following his rebuke at the polls in ‘06. For him, Bush43, the issue was HOW could he prolong HIS war until the next president who would perforce SHARE some of the blame for the unmitigated debacle we charitably call the Iraq War. I call it the Second Punitive Expedition to Iraq.
For Bush43 the issue came down to TIME. How to escape the summer of '07. The US fiscal year ends September 30. If Bush43 can somehow avoid close public scrutiny of his (mis)conduct of the War until the ‘07-‘08 Fiscal Year starting on October 1, he is home free! Nothing Congress or GOD can do will end the war on his watch.
Q. How do you get from January 3 - NEW Congress takes office - to the next fiscal year, October 1?
A. The Surge! A PR masterstroke!
Americans are dedicated to fair play and we do want to see the War in Iraq succeed although we have sharply differing POV on what amounts to success. Although one could argue that raising the American troop level from 130,000 to 160,000 was merely an incremental increase and not a REAL surge - like doubling the force - that is just one more prerogative the White House enjoys being able to define the issues. In this case setting up a STRAW MAN for debate! The Surge. Congress speaks with 435 voices, the White House with but one. Advantage WH! Every time.
The ploy worked, Congress was stymied all during the ‘07 summer. Now Bush43 cares not a wit what happens anywhere. New Orleans. Of Mosul. Wall Street. Tibet. "He's outta here!" Leaving behind 4,000 KIA in Iraq and counting. He has escaped legal and moral accountability while in office and can avoid answering hard questions until American’s are so tired of Iraq that we leave it as we did finally leave Saigon, Vietnam. The American Tripartite Dictatorship - Bush43, VP Cheney and Herr Rumsfeld - will escape public repudiation for their ‘01-‘08 contrivances. The world has been struck by A Perfect Storm!
After PM Blair was driven from office by his “lapdog” support of Bush43's irrational policies - preemptive war - torture - rendition - Abu Ghriab - new PM Gordon Brown had to STOP LOSS of British KIAs or else see the Labor Government FALL. The Brits withdrew from Basra late last year. The Brits, some 3,000 strong - a brigade - are now ensconced in a safe area 20 miles outside of Basra awaiting their return home which I predict will be on November 5, 2008. Brown has a bit of cover on UK losses in Afghan because there a NATO force is deployed so US Central Command - the Texas Oval Office - is not in total charge. I believe PM Rudd of Australia has probably set the same date for the withdrawal of their 500 soldiers. The Coalition of the Willing has finally gone KIA!
On the Iraqi people. 5,000 years in Mesopotamia and still running! There is nothing wrong in Iraq that can be fixed in W-DC. When we are gone from Iraq, and STOP trying to impose a government we vetted early on, and let the Iraqi choose their own government, the so-called insurgency will end. Either of its own momentum or because the Iraqi do not WANT or NEED them further. As in most places around the world, the locals LOVE Americans but HATE our government. And sadly, Americans for the most part confuse the two.
[edit on 3/31/2008 by donwhite]
Just leave this pathetic society to ruins. Apparently, all they are capable of doing is kill each other. Leave them to their misery. If they mess with us at home. send a few tomahawks their way...
Au contraire, Mr Pugachev.
First, on the topic. I agree the SURGE was bunkum! It’s my own view that it was a device coldly calculated by Bush43 to spare his sorry *** from sharp Congressional oversight following his rebuke at the polls in ‘06. For him, Bush43, the issue was HOW could he prolong HIS war until the next president who would perforce SHARE some of the blame for the unmitigated debacle we charitably call the Iraq War. I call it the Second Punitive Expedition to Iraq.
For Bush43 the issue came down to TIME. How to escape the summer of '07. The US fiscal year ends September 30. If Bush43 can somehow avoid close public scrutiny of his (mis)conduct of the War until the ‘07-‘08 Fiscal Year starting on October 1, he is home free! Nothing Congress or GOD can do will end the war on his watch.
Q. How do you get from January 3 - NEW Congress takes office - to the next fiscal year, October 1?
A. The Surge! A PR masterstroke!
Americans are dedicated to fair play and we do want to see the War in Iraq succeed although we have sharply differing POV on what amounts to success. Although one could argue that raising the American troop level from 130,000 to 160,000 was merely an incremental increase and not a REAL surge - like doubling the force - that is just one more prerogative the White House enjoys being able to define the issues. In this case setting up a STRAW MAN for debate! The Surge. Congress speaks with 435 voices, the White House with but one. Advantage WH! Every time.
The ploy worked, Congress was stymied all during the ‘07 summer. Now Bush43 cares not a wit what happens anywhere. New Orleans. Of Mosul. Wall Street. Tibet. "He's outta here!" Leaving behind 4,000 KIA in Iraq and counting. He has escaped legal and moral accountability while in office and can avoid answering hard questions until American’s are so tired of Iraq that we leave it as we did finally leave Saigon, Vietnam. The American Tripartite Dictatorship - Bush43, VP Cheney and Herr Rumsfeld - will escape public repudiation for their ‘01-‘08 contrivances. The world has been struck by A Perfect Storm!
After PM Blair was driven from office by his “lapdog” support of Bush43's irrational policies - preemptive war - torture - rendition - Abu Ghriab - new PM Gordon Brown had to STOP LOSS of British KIAs or else see the Labor Government FALL. The Brits withdrew from Basra late last year. The Brits, some 3,000 strong - a brigade - are now ensconced in a safe area 20 miles outside of Basra awaiting their return home which I predict will be on November 5, 2008. Brown has a bit of cover on UK losses in Afghan because there a NATO force is deployed so US Central Command - the Texas Oval Office - is not in total charge. I believe PM Rudd of Australia has probably set the same date for the withdrawal of their 500 soldiers. The Coalition of the Willing has finally gone KIA!
On the Iraqi people. 5,000 years in Mesopotamia and still running! There is nothing wrong in Iraq that can be fixed in W-DC. When we are gone from Iraq, and STOP trying to impose a government we vetted early on, and let the Iraqi choose their own government, the so-called insurgency will end. Either of its own momentum or because the Iraqi do not WANT or NEED them further. As in most places around the world, the locals LOVE Americans but HATE our government. And sadly, Americans for the most part confuse the two.
[edit on 3/31/2008 by donwhite]
reply posted on 31-3-2008 @ 01:28 PM by Alxandro
reply to post by Agit8dChop
So what would be an alternative plan for winning in Iraq?
[edit on 31-3-2008 by Alxandro]
So what would be an alternative plan for winning in Iraq?
[edit on 31-3-2008 by Alxandro]
reply posted on 31-3-2008 @ 04:07 PM by donwhite
reply to post by Alxandro
I suggest we need an Attitude Adjustment. “Winning” is a bad word in the context of the turmoil unleashed in Iraq on March 18, 2003 and shortly thereafter. With little knowledge and even less forethought, we tore apart the fabric that had bound Iraq together since 1922 in less than 30 days. Operating ad hoc out of the Pentagon and the White House, we made first one mistake - allowed looting of the ancient artifacts of Iraq - with another - abolished the Army - and further compounded the misunderstood task we were shortly to face by banning the only people who knew how to run Iraq, the Ba’athists. America was driven by two major forces - ignorance and ideology. A dangerous combination anywhere, anytime.
As I have declared elsewhere, the Iraqi people have been systematically garroted by the American Tripartite Dictatorship - Bush43, VP Cheney and Herr Rumsfeld - the Perfect Storm!
Now that the United States has created maximum disorder out of order, offering evidence if not proof of the horrid outcome of a Second Law of Thermodynamics first gone awry then unleashed on social institutions. it is no time to talk about “winning.” Surviving might be more appropriate. Let us recall that first we vetted all the candidates for office before the first Iraq election. Then we wrote the Iraqi Constitution although our surrogates claim to have had input though no one doubts every dot and tittle was approved by L. Paul Bremmer, American Pro-Consul for Iraq.
We - I say “we” but I mean “they” - Iraq needs BOTTOM UP leadership and not more of the TOP DOWN kind that America is so quick to furnish. We have put the cart before the horse. Local governance comes before national or federal governance. We tried to do it on the CHEAP but it has not worked and it will not work. One example: we constantly lament the lack of good policing, but we overlook that in most of Iraq there are not yet courts, and few or no impartial judges before who the police can take suspects for hearings and due process of law. Yes, Iraqi also want DUE PROCESS of law even if the Bush43 clique does not. Police without a justice system is a half full glass and tempts police to be judge and jury.
The sad news for Iraq (and for many more potential American KIAs) is that Bush43 is now disengaging from his two terms as president. That would be good news but for the mess he has created at home and abroad. Unlike birds that don’t soil their own nests, he has done that and now he wants to walk off into history leaving us to clean up behind him. As if nothing hd ever happened! Advice? Wait until January 20, 2009, to come back to this issue again. It’s a waste until then.
[edit on 3/31/2008 by donwhite]
So what would be an alternative plan for winning in Iraq?
I suggest we need an Attitude Adjustment. “Winning” is a bad word in the context of the turmoil unleashed in Iraq on March 18, 2003 and shortly thereafter. With little knowledge and even less forethought, we tore apart the fabric that had bound Iraq together since 1922 in less than 30 days. Operating ad hoc out of the Pentagon and the White House, we made first one mistake - allowed looting of the ancient artifacts of Iraq - with another - abolished the Army - and further compounded the misunderstood task we were shortly to face by banning the only people who knew how to run Iraq, the Ba’athists. America was driven by two major forces - ignorance and ideology. A dangerous combination anywhere, anytime.
As I have declared elsewhere, the Iraqi people have been systematically garroted by the American Tripartite Dictatorship - Bush43, VP Cheney and Herr Rumsfeld - the Perfect Storm!
Now that the United States has created maximum disorder out of order, offering evidence if not proof of the horrid outcome of a Second Law of Thermodynamics first gone awry then unleashed on social institutions. it is no time to talk about “winning.” Surviving might be more appropriate. Let us recall that first we vetted all the candidates for office before the first Iraq election. Then we wrote the Iraqi Constitution although our surrogates claim to have had input though no one doubts every dot and tittle was approved by L. Paul Bremmer, American Pro-Consul for Iraq.
We - I say “we” but I mean “they” - Iraq needs BOTTOM UP leadership and not more of the TOP DOWN kind that America is so quick to furnish. We have put the cart before the horse. Local governance comes before national or federal governance. We tried to do it on the CHEAP but it has not worked and it will not work. One example: we constantly lament the lack of good policing, but we overlook that in most of Iraq there are not yet courts, and few or no impartial judges before who the police can take suspects for hearings and due process of law. Yes, Iraqi also want DUE PROCESS of law even if the Bush43 clique does not. Police without a justice system is a half full glass and tempts police to be judge and jury.
The sad news for Iraq (and for many more potential American KIAs) is that Bush43 is now disengaging from his two terms as president. That would be good news but for the mess he has created at home and abroad. Unlike birds that don’t soil their own nests, he has done that and now he wants to walk off into history leaving us to clean up behind him. As if nothing hd ever happened! Advice? Wait until January 20, 2009, to come back to this issue again. It’s a waste until then.
[edit on 3/31/2008 by donwhite]
reply posted on 31-3-2008 @ 05:00 PM by Alxandro
reply to post by donwhite
Is that your way of saying we should lose instead?
Yes mistakes were made but could you imagine what the critics would be saying if the war was executed flawlessly?
Yeah, they'd be saying things like "the U.S. of A. is such an effective killing machine they've got war down to a science".
I'm with you about the looting of ancient artifacts.
The conspiracy theorist in me feels the elite masters do things with a "kill two birds with one stone" technique to maximize results in one swoop, but another side of me keeps asking, what if all these theories are wrong?
Truth is, we don't know for sure.
The Laws of Irony really do exist because if you take an event or situation of any kind and regardless of where you stand on THAT issue and whether you are for or against IT, IT will always develops into ironic twists and turns of unforeseen consequences as IT continues to evolve.
This war is no different because even though you, and many more anti US folks like you, would much rather lose this war and always seems to salivate when new figures are released on the Death Toll in Iraq, you all should at least be grateful that your children will not have to share the World with Uday and Qusay.
I feel we still don't know everything there is to know about why we went into Iraq, and we probably won't ever know, but I have a gut feeling information will be slowly revealed or leaked out over the next several years that will confirm that as painful and as exepnsive as it was, it was still the right thing to do.
Is that your way of saying we should lose instead?
Yes mistakes were made but could you imagine what the critics would be saying if the war was executed flawlessly?
Yeah, they'd be saying things like "the U.S. of A. is such an effective killing machine they've got war down to a science".
I'm with you about the looting of ancient artifacts.
The conspiracy theorist in me feels the elite masters do things with a "kill two birds with one stone" technique to maximize results in one swoop, but another side of me keeps asking, what if all these theories are wrong?
Truth is, we don't know for sure.
The Laws of Irony really do exist because if you take an event or situation of any kind and regardless of where you stand on THAT issue and whether you are for or against IT, IT will always develops into ironic twists and turns of unforeseen consequences as IT continues to evolve.
This war is no different because even though you, and many more anti US folks like you, would much rather lose this war and always seems to salivate when new figures are released on the Death Toll in Iraq, you all should at least be grateful that your children will not have to share the World with Uday and Qusay.
I feel we still don't know everything there is to know about why we went into Iraq, and we probably won't ever know, but I have a gut feeling information will be slowly revealed or leaked out over the next several years that will confirm that as painful and as exepnsive as it was, it was still the right thing to do.
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