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How Jackinthebox got jacked-up by the police

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posted on Mar, 30 2008 @ 11:38 AM
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reply to post by Alxandro
 



Kissing their behinds was never a suggestion.


One or the other Alxandro. Either you are willing to tolerate belligerence in silence, or you are willing to speak up for yourself when your civil rights are being victimized.



You obviously don't know the meaning of "Silence is Golden".


Oh I undertand the meaning quite well, as I have already shown. I simply refuse to submit to fascism.

I think you fail to grasp traditional American values.





You were probably let go because you spent too much time on ATS.


Another ignorant assumption you have?





[edit on 3/30/0808 by jackinthebox]




posted on Mar, 30 2008 @ 11:47 AM
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Can you please post the arrest report with the personnel fields blacked out? I know form experience that the victim/suspect says one thing, and the cops say another. The truth is usually in between the 2 somewhere (usually closer to the police side).

I only ask because you obviously have a biased opinion, and an inflated one at that. You post poems that were written about the holocaust as if they apply to you. You post terrorism posters as if they apply to you.

I mean, why should we feel sorry for you when by your own admission you were carrying a firearm while intoxicated (a crime in every state and a felony in some)told the police that you were armed and were belligerent with the police.



[edit on 30-3-2008 by Lotiki]



posted on Mar, 30 2008 @ 11:53 AM
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reply to post by craig732
 



Any insight into this Jack?


Maybe for the same reasons that there are non-smokers who die of cancer, while there are chain-smokers who live to a rip old age never getting it.

I might also suggest that crime is not the same in every community. Living out in the boonies next to a state park, it's really no wonder why you haven't seen any problems like this. Not to mention the "peace love and Hippyness" of the nearby town. When was the last time you even saw a police cruiser that wasn't on the Thruway?



posted on Mar, 30 2008 @ 12:21 PM
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reply to post by verylowfrequency
 



Had you not run your mouth you would be less likely to be dealing with this crap. I know you don't want/need to hear that, but I'm saying it for others reading along too.


Honestly, I really don't think it would have made a difference at that point, but I do see your point. I have already said that it wasn't the wisest choice I have ever made, but in no way did it warrant what they did, as you have said. I can only imagine what would have happened if I had said something explicitly insulting, and if they had not realized that they were being watched.

Here is another example. It is well within your rights to ask the officer to properly identify themself. It seems that these officers are the sort who would take great offense to such a request, and would beat you down for it. This is really the same sort of thing we are talking about here, and I find it intolerable, as should everyone who values their civil liberties.

I don't want to run and hide and be silent while fascism becomes the norm.



I believe you could of outsmarted them using you wit, and cooled them off with finesse, but instead you choose to stand your ground which led them to escalate the situation and they had the upper hand.


This is true. But are civil liberties not worth standing your ground for? My family has shed far too much blood for them for me to betray that obligation.



The biggest problem I see with your story is that you had a gun, which makes it appear like you may have been packing the gun because you were expecting possible retaliation from the person who's window was broke whom you've had an ongoing feud with.


I should clarify this point. My firearm was already safely secured within the apartment, but I was still carrying a knife, as I always do. And again, I made the status of my weapons known to the officers as a courtesy and from my own protection as well, before we began our discussion.

More importantly, the officers could not reasonably have made such a presumption based on several factors regarding the party who's window had been broken.



...the drunkenness will destroy your credibility.


The fact that I was under the influence of alcohol certainly would play a key role in any proceedings. My testimony would be irrelevent however, in light of the fact that there were several impartial witnesses. Their testimony is hampered however, by the simple fact that they are civilians.



It's three years where I live, I find it hard to believe that it's only three months for you.


You have 90 days to file a Notice of Claim. This basically reserves your right to sue at any point within the following three years.



posted on Mar, 30 2008 @ 12:28 PM
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reply to post by Lotiki
 



Can you please post the arrest report with the personnel fields blacked out?


I don't have a scanner to copy it to a computer.



You post poems that were written about the holocaust as if they apply to you. You post terrorism posters as if they apply to you.


If you don't see the relevance of what I was trying to show, then you are lost.



...and were belligerent with the police.


This is incorrect. I was not belligerent with the police. I merely rebuked their illegal threats and intimidation tactics, as I have already said.



posted on Mar, 30 2008 @ 01:59 PM
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Originally posted by jackinthebox
I don't want to run and hide and be silent while fascism becomes the norm. are civil liberties not worth standing your ground for?


No, but there's a time in place to smartly defend your values/rights and your timing did nothing, but put you at risk. Sometimes it's better to live & fight another day - I suppose that you have, but it could have turned out worse.

Was it your body that was more bruised or your ego I wonder?


Originally posted by jackinthebox
I should clarify this point. My firearm was already safely secured within the apartment, but I was still carrying a knife, as I always do.


I see we're squeezing additional information out of you, I'm sorry that wasn't my intent, but thank you for making it more clear. That does make a huge difference (from our perspective), but maybe not a big enough one for them to not react the way they did.


Originally posted by jackinthebox
the officers could not reasonably have made such a presumption


Officers are human and we all make presumptions all the time and many times we're not right or reasonable, but make em we all do.

Continuing playing devils advocate here. - no offense intended

I have to ask if they shouldn't have made that presumption why did they have contact with you? Are you saying it was just a coincidence? Were they coming to your porch/home because someone sent them there? Did you have prior contact with them or other LEO's regarding this neighbor? Were they just walking around the area and decided you were there so they'd make contact? Or were they just walking by and you baited them to come to you?

I once replaced some single pane windows with insulated multi-panes and I put the old ones out front for collectors or restorers to take for free. I heard some loud noises at night and I came out & found some kids running away from my house and although I didn't see them attempt to break my windows (none broke just rattled loudly when hitting the sidewalk) they were the only ones out and they ran when they saw me come out - thus I presumed they were they ones trying to break my windows.

Thus, I think its not proof you were the window breaker, but having an ongoing something with the window party and being in visual range of the police when they were investigating I think its reasonable to assume at the very least you may know something about the event either by being the perp or seeing someone go by.

Doesn't prove anything, but that's why they made contact with you to see if you saw something or if you would snitch yourself off - like some of the moron's we see on cop TV.

Sounds like you may have been a bit belligerent at the time especially having been intoxicated and that coupled with the weapon gave them enough pretext to begin an arrest and the result of their actions weighed against policies, procedures & your civil rights potentially violated at some point is the only thing up for debate.

They're used to that approach and you called them on it and they didn't like being called on it, so they escalated it because you had a weapon & they could use that against your future arguments.



My testimony would be irrelevant however, in light of the fact that there were several impartial witnesses.


Well yes, at some point during that contact you have witnesses to back up your side of the story, but I suspect they weren't there from beginning to end or were they? The question is at what point were they a witness, they didn't see or hear the window break I'm assuming, did they see the cops when they showed up or after they heard an argument or scuffle?



You have 90 days to file a Notice of Claim. This basically reserves your right to sue at any point within the following three years.


That seems strange, but it wouldn't surprise me that the system protects itself more than its citizens.

In my case, I hadn't decided to file my claim against the city where I nearly died, at first I was happy to just be alive and be in the ICU of a good hospital with mostly competent staff.

It wasn't until about 6 months later that I began to look back at what happened and see that I had a case for a claim after reading a US Supreme court decision on the internet.

Had I not had time to come to my senses to fight for my rights and compensation for violation thereof , it would of been too late had I had only 90 days.

Of course my claim begins at 7 digits and my medical bills are in 6 and continuing, my life expectancy is likely shortened and may require additional surgeries to continue my life, that coupled with my wish to make changes for others in the future makes my case worth fighting for.



[edit on 30-3-2008 by verylowfrequency]



posted on Mar, 30 2008 @ 02:09 PM
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reply to post by jackinthebox
 


Silence does not equate with submission.
Since there were plenty of witnesses, your case would have been much stronger had you remained calm and not fought fire with fire and filed a legitimate and official complaint afterwards.
Instead beligerance went head on with fascism, beligerance lost and the now the case is dead.



posted on Mar, 30 2008 @ 03:27 PM
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reply to post by verylowfrequency
 



No, but there's a time in place to defend your values and your timing did nothing, but put you at risk. Sometimes it's better to live & fight another day - I suppose that you have, but it could have turned out worse.


No better time to defend your rights then when they are being violated, at whatever cost. I lost the fight, I knew I would lose the fight. But I refused to cower. And yes, it certainly could have turned out far worse.

EDIT to add: When I say "fight" I am not speaking of actual physical confrontation.



Was it your body that was more bruised or your ego I wonder?


As I have said, I have been in worse shape. I had my arm broken on the job not too long before. Thankfully it was healed by the time of this incident.

And this is not about ego. This is about having some backbone and standing up for what's right, not just for myself, but for all freedom loving people. For the values once held in high regard, but now are being extinguished by complaceny and worse. I don't know about anyone else, but I will not go quietly into the night to live under the fascist jackboot of abusive authority.



I have to ask if they shouldn't have made that presumption why did they have contact with you?


You're confusing two issues. I have no problem with the fact that they initiated contact with me. There was no grounds to make a resonable assumption that I or anyone else would be in fear of any sort of retaliation however, given the circumstances of the "window party." Especially such that would warrant the involvement of a weapon.



Were they coming to your porch/home because someone sent them there?


Yes, though I did not know that at the time.



Did you have prior contact with them or other LEO's regarding this neighbor? Were they just walking around the area and decided you were there so they'd make contact? Or were they just walking by and you baited them to come to you?


I did not have any contact with them that involved law-enforcement, but several neighbors have standing orders of protection against the neighbor, due to pending criminal chrages regarding child-molestation.

I also made a complaint to the landlord regarding their squalorous living condidtions that had extended beyond their residence. Specifically, their place was such a health hazard that their cats were now using surrounding lawns and driveways as litter boxes.



Sounds like you may have been a bit belligerent at the time especially having been intoxicated and that coupled with the weapon gave them enough pretext to begin an arrest and the result of their actions weighed against policies, procedures & your civil rights potentially violated at some point is the only thing up for debate.


I must reiterate that, despite the fact that I had been drinking, I was in no way belligerent. If they had properly inititated an arrest, I would have had no complaint, and would have made my defense in court. This would have been a simple matter. And again I make the reminder, that I voluntarily disarmed myself, and was no longer in posession of the weapon during our converstaion. I had no weapon in my possesion when I was beaten.



Well yes, at some point during that contact you have witnesses to back up your side of the story, but I suspect they weren't there from beginning to end or were they?


They were there, and watching from the point that the window was broken, from various vantage points.

EDIT to add: Some of those neighbors were also very concerned about the fact that I was denied medical treatment, and voiced their concern to officers who responded from different departments.

[edit on 3/30/0808 by jackinthebox]

[edit on 3/30/0808 by jackinthebox]



posted on Mar, 30 2008 @ 03:31 PM
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reply to post by Alxandro
 



...had you remained calm and not fought fire with fire...


I was perfectly calm, and in no way threatening, menacing, or beligerent.



posted on Mar, 30 2008 @ 03:56 PM
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Originally posted by jackinthebox
I might also suggest that crime is not the same in every community. Living out in the boonies next to a state park, it's really no wonder why you haven't seen any problems like this. Not to mention the "peace love and Hippyness" of the nearby town. When was the last time you even saw a police cruiser that wasn't on the Thruway?


I just changed my location in my profile from Round Top, NY to just NY... I have to assume from your post that my stated location was misleading.

I live and work in NYC and have a vacation home in Round Top. I am currently working in the private security field. I see NYPD police cars every day, in addition to the multitude of other police agencies here in the city. As a private security employee, I would NEVER think to say something like "Having worn a shield" because I know that can be misconstrued as me claiming to currently be a law enforcement officer, which I am not.

Being in private security is nothing like being a police officer or peace officer, regardless of who contracted you. Your vague references to being contracted by the state by no means show that you were in any way anything more than a security guard. New York State contracts private security guards for many of their locations, such as DMV and EZ-Pass offices. It sounds to me like you are trying to pass yourself off as something more than you were.



posted on Mar, 30 2008 @ 04:20 PM
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Originally posted by jackinthebox

They were there, and watching from the point that the window was broken, from various vantage points.

EDIT to add: Some of those neighbors were also very concerned about the fact that I was denied medical treatment, and voiced their concern to officers who responded from different departments.



Well that's good that there were witnesses to the entire event.

My entire claim is based on the denial of medical treatment that led to my catastrophic heart attack while in custody. I was arrested for simply calling 911 and then having a change of heart and then refused to press charges. Instead of moving on they retaliated by deciding to write me up for false reporting for wasting their time. That led to my being arrested and stressed out over a six hour 3 different transports just to get me booked. I was never beaten but I was shaken over the event which contributed to my heart attack , though that's not part of my claim.

While in custody I began to ask for medical help. Both verbally & in written form asked & was refused medical care on more than a half dozen occasions in the little over 24 hours of my being in custody .

I suppose I should write this in another thread rather than clog up yours, but I'm not sure where I would put it, sorry I couldn't help it.




[edit on 30-3-2008 by verylowfrequency]



posted on Mar, 30 2008 @ 04:21 PM
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reply to post by craig732
 



Being in private security is nothing like being a police officer or peace officer, regardless of who contracted you.


To make such a statement, you must have limited experience in the field.



It sounds to me like you are trying to pass yourself off as something more than you were.


If that were my intention, why wouldn't I just lie? Is a LEO something "more" than someone else anyway? I have seen officers who do nothing more than issue parking tickets and I have seen security guards trained in special weapons and tactics to respond to terrorist action.

If you really are in the field as you claim, then you should realize that the fields overlap in many ways.

When was the last time you ran down a perp, or came into the middle of a domestic dispute with someone wielding a kitchen knife?



[edit on 3/30/0808 by jackinthebox]



posted on Mar, 30 2008 @ 04:42 PM
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reply to post by verylowfrequency
 


I really hope that justice is served in your case. Your arrest seems frivelous, but really that is not the issue. When you are in custody, they conveniently forget that they are charged with your care as well. Sometimes its intentional, many times I think it is purely ignorance that leads to prisoners dieing.

Here's something that happened to me in my teens. Myself and another friend of mine got a ride up the road to the convenience store with some guy that my friend knew. We were almost there when a swarm of cruisers executed a felony stop in the empty plaza parking lot we were cutting through. I was cuffed, put in the back of the cruiser and taken to another gas station without having anything explained to me.

Now here was the bad part. The deputy left the heat on full blast while he went inside, with all of the windows sealed. The heat became torturous. I tried to struggle out of my winter coat, but couldn't really do it with the cuffs on. I tried shouting but there was no one who could hear me, and the few customers who came and went just assumed that I was causing trouble by shouting and banging on the glass. I do not know how long I was in there. When I regained consciousness, I was laying on the pavement next to the cruiser in the bitter cold air, where I had fallen when the deputy opened the door. The deputy then pulled me up off the ground and put me against the cruiser to take the cuffs off, and left.

The reason I had been taken into custody was that the driver of the truck we were in had just robbed a gas station in the next town, but I almost died that night simply because the deputy was ignorant of his responsibility.

P.S. I can't believe, well I can really, that they hauled you off for a ticketable offense like that. Best of luck to you and your case. Unless someone has ever been in that position, they will never know what it is really like to be so utterly helpless.



posted on Mar, 30 2008 @ 04:48 PM
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reply to post by verylowfrequency
 


Thanks for sharing your story. And please don't feel that I have taken offense to your questions in any way either. I thank you for bringing valid questions to the table in an unbiased manner.



posted on Mar, 30 2008 @ 04:59 PM
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It's a pretty sick world when a bunch of people will all come together, to tell a man who was beaten by the cops that he "had it coming" because he said he wasn't afraid of something that no innocent person should ever be afraid of... the police.



posted on Mar, 30 2008 @ 05:19 PM
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JITB...All I have are 2 questions for you concerning this matter. As you know its been INVESTIGATED and PROVEN by my employer I am a LEO...so with that I ask:

1. Can you honestly say, sitting there you did NOTHING to provoke, escalate, or compound anything that occured?

2. When you worked in whatever capacity as a "badge" holder did you or did you not have the power to arrest people under the crimes code law of whatever state you worked/lived? Or under title 18 USC?

I have debated many things with you, and you have brought up some good points in the past, etc...but I have to be honest...this thread sounds truly self serving and not complete. Some things just don't make sence and I wonder if your trying to gather support here to help you cope with what you actually know you did wrong? I'm not at all saying what you say did or did not happen the way you describe, I wasn't there...but as you know...if it looks like, walks like, and sounds like a duck...its a duck!!

If you were TRULY wronged, I wish you the best in your case.



posted on Mar, 30 2008 @ 05:54 PM
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Originally posted by jackinthebox
reply to post by craig732
 



Being in private security is nothing like being a police officer or peace officer, regardless of who contracted you.


To make such a statement, you must have limited experience in the field.



So far, you have been incorrect in all of your assumptions about me. I don't think that being a retired peace officer or working either part time or full time in private security for the past 22 years would be considered limited experience.


Originally posted by jackinthebox

When was the last time you ran down a perp, or came into the middle of a domestic dispute with someone wielding a kitchen knife?



Probably about 4 years since I did either of those things.

I just reread the 8 Hour Annual In-Service Training Course for Security Guards in New York State to be sure I was not mistaken, but it clearly states that a security guard is "a private citizen with no special governmental authority", which is much different from a peace officer or police officer. Maybe at K-Mart they have a different training program that doesn't follow the state-mandated training curriculum?



posted on Mar, 30 2008 @ 06:24 PM
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Originally posted by rcwj75

2. When you worked in whatever capacity as a "badge" holder did you or did you not have the power to arrest people under the crimes code law of whatever state you worked/lived? Or under title 18 USC?


I am feeling very helpful today rcjw, so please allow me to answer that question for Jack.

No he did not. In New York State, security guards have no powers of arrest other than that of any private citizen. In other words, he could make a citizen's arrest if a crime was in fact committed in his presence.



posted on Mar, 30 2008 @ 07:04 PM
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reply to post by rcwj75
 


I was hoping you would stop by. You seem to be more level-headed and unbiased than many members who dicuss these issues, despite your line of work, and therefore I value your opinion.



1. Can you honestly say, sitting there you did NOTHING to provoke, escalate, or compound anything that occured?


Legally speaking, yes. But as I have already stated, I did in fact make a remark which was a rebuke to their own beligerence, but also explicitly included my willingness to cooperate with whatever legal sanctions they saw fit.



2. When you worked in whatever capacity as a "badge" holder did you or did you not have the power to arrest people under the crimes code law of whatever state you worked/lived? Or under title 18 USC?


I did. Though not the authority to detain for the purposes of further investigation.



...this thread sounds truly self serving and not complete. Some things just don't make sence and I wonder if your trying to gather support here to help you cope with what you actually know you did wrong?


My only purpose in starting this thread specifically, is so that I can refer other members to it when it comes up in discussion. As you know, I have made my opinions known in other threads of similar nature, and felt that by posting this thread I could avoid being redundant.

Really, I did not expect to "gather support" at all. In fact, I expected the opposite.

As far as "coping" goes, this was something I had been prepared to do. I found myself confused, and thinking to myself that I must have simply forgotten that I had done something to deserve this. That ended when I was approached by the witnesses and reviewed the evidence. One such witness was a deputy, though he will not speak on the record in my defense for fear of reprisal. He was not there for the whole event either, but arrived to see me being kicked and stomped in the head and torso, while the other officer repeatedly applied the stun gun.




[edit on 3/30/0808 by jackinthebox]



posted on Mar, 30 2008 @ 07:24 PM
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reply to post by craig732
 



I don't think that being a retired peace officer or working either part time or full time in private security for the past 22 years would be considered limited experience.


Then you should have known better than to make the statement that you did.



I just reread the 8 Hour Annual In-Service Training Course for Security Guards in New York State to be sure I was not mistaken, but it clearly states that a security guard is "a private citizen with no special governmental authority", which is much different from a peace officer or police officer.


If you are working in the field, you should not have to "re-read" anything to know exactly what authority you do or do not have. Especially if you are posted somewhere that you might have to make a decision without the convenience of first going back to read up on what your duties are.



Maybe at K-Mart they have a different training program that doesn't follow the state-mandated training curriculum?


I wouldn't know.



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