Ballistic Hunting Weapons - UK

reply to post by 44soulslayer

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The couple of gunsmiths I've been into here in the UK had physical security equivalent to a bank/jewellers so unless you have access to industrial cutting gear to get into the gun-safes and are prepared to take the risk of getting caught for looting, then the only other way is to improvise and improve on what is legally available to buy at the moment.




[edit on 28-3-2008 by citizen smith]

One of the things i do find strange about uk gun law is the status of shotguns? If you are a countryside landowner you can have a shotgun for pest control. You can also get a shotgun license if you can prove you have a sporting need for one (eg. you are a member of a country club that has a range). Seems a bit unfair that toffs can have shotguns and normal working people can't even have a decent air weapon without illegal modifications? Just my thoughts-am open to new ones!

reply to post by the way

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Over-the-counter restrictions on arms purchases do have a distict advantage over the toff who relies on his goons and monogrammed over-under grouse-gun...it means you must be more resourceful, more devious, more cunning in how you you arm yourself

...if i really wanted to build an arsenal, the place i'd start would be to buy a load of fireworks for a celebration of somekind, its not like you'll have to account for all those fireworks at that particular 'celebration' actually being discharged is it now? *wink*

reply to post by citizen smith

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I like the way you think! In fact i seem to remember a few years ago there was a war between two rival yardie gangs for control of some turf in st. pauls here in bristol-they were using display fireworks as makeshift rocket launchers against each other and the police! If anyone is going to do this be careful as the more powerful ones are supposed to be electronically activated and can be deadly if you try to light them by flame.

I own a shotgun and I'm no toff (Lanber Sporting Delux 12ga O/U M/C)! Shotguns are quite easy to get hold of really. All you need do do is join a gun club that offers clay shooting facilities. Failing that you can get permission from land owners to use their land for hunting purposes. You also need a clean record and two references from "people of standing" in the community who have known you for at least two years, e.g. doctors, solicitors or some such (I used my Medical Officer and CO). You also need to provide secure facilities for the gun. Assuming these check out then there is no reason that a certificate shouldn't be issued.

Remember it is the right of all UK citizens to own a shotgun, and the onus is on the police to prove that you are unfit to own one. With rifles the onus is on the shooter to proove a need or valid reason to own one. Hence it is more difficult to own a rifle than a shotgun. It is still perfectly possible - I own two bolt-action rifles for hunting purposes. I'm thinking of starting F class shooting so I'll probably be upgrading soon.

Really, if you want a shotgun/firearm that badly, why not just go through the legal system to attain one? It's not that hard if you can meet the above criteria. If you can't meet this criteria then why do you want the gun? If you aren't a member of a club or have land owners permission, where are you going to shoot? The UK isn't like the US. We don't have large areas of open public land that you can just drive to to shoot. All the land is owned by someone, and their permission is required to use it.

The more legal owners there are out there the better it is for the sport and the less stigma there will be attached to it. This can only be a good thing.

Air rifles are the real strange one. If you are caught with an illegally held air rifle (power >12ft/lbs) then you will be done for posession of a firearm, which is a more serious offence than if you were caught with an illegally owned shotgun! You need a firearms certificate for such a rifle (as opposed to a shotgun ticket), yet a shotgun is much more dangerous than any air rifle. Weird, but there you go.

reply to post by PaddyInf

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Thanks for your informative post, paddy. Still a bit confused though! Are you saying i can join a club and shoot and get my licence afterwards or do i need a licence first to join? I used to shoot small bore pistol and rifle in a club in my teens (before the handgun ban) but only got in because i was invited by another member (my uncle), who vouched for me. Has it changed now?

Unless I somehow missed it in my look through the thread and someone already mentioned it, you can easily obtain a bow in the UK as well as crossbows. You can get some really powerful ones which will be lethal at long range, if you're accurate. longbows need the most skill, but with a skilled person would be incredibly good. Course, if you don't start practicing until the survival situation, you have a problem.

When I did archery, someone I knew even had some replica war arrows with armour piercing points on them. They didn't shoot them, but you can get them easily.

[edit on 30-3-2008 by apex]

reply to post by the way

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You can just walk in off the street. But before you can become a full member, there is a probationary period (3 months) during which time you have to be under supervision of a senior member if I remember correctly - it's been a while...

Funnily enough, I had to jump through more hoops to get my firearms license than I did for my shotgun license. The FAC came though quicker too.

On another note, regarding air guns... to get extra power without an illegal modification, just put a drop or two of gun oil into the piston chamber. When you release the piston, the oil ignites under the pressure, and your pellet will fly much faster. It's called "deselling" (sp?). You are probably breaking the law by doing this however.

Good one

I forgot about the dieselling as a way to boost the power, though it will wreck the piston seals eventually if you use a volatile 'excellerant'...It could always be claimed as having accidentally happened during maintainance if ever questioned

Just as a theoretical idea, could there be a way to introduce a spark at the head of the piston-chamber to ignite the compressed volatiles/air mixture and give greater power?

[edit on 30-3-2008 by citizen smith]

reply to post by citizen smith

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The oil does ignite on it's own (no spark is necessary) due to the high pressure generated by the spring/piston. Don't forget, pressure and temperature are related, so when the pressure increases, the temperature goes up enough to reach the flash point of the oil, providing you use the correct oil. Some oils (mineral based?) will not work if I remember correctly.

It's worth noting that a significant amount of noise is generated this way (not surprisingly), which could be an issue depending on your situation. One of the main advantages of air-weapons is that they are relatively silent when used in the intended way.

If you're hunting small quarry like rabbits, then you're better off not boosting your power by this method. A rifle working at the legal limit is more than sufficient to do the job, and in some cases will even result in over-penetration.

What other 'additives' could best exploit this method to increase power output?

I'm thinking in terms of an oxidiser-effect to boost the explosive combustion that occurs as you describe, but similar in principle to injecting NOx into a car engine

reply to post by citizen smith

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I really couldn't say, but as you already have a chamber full of compressed air it probably wouldn't be beneficial to add further oxygen.

You could experiment with other volatile liquids/mixtures I guess, but I'd be careful if I were you... you don't want to end up with a ruptured chamber and/or possible legal issues.

If you really want more power, then it would be much better to take Paddy's advice and apply for a shotgun/firearms certificate IMHO.

I currently have a .177 Falcon FN19 (PCP rifle) running at 11.7ft/lbs. Thanks to the wonderful design of the rifle, its remarkably easy to get more power out of it. Its basic operation is the trigger releases the cocked bolt, which impacts the air valve, setting the rifle off. To get more power, you need to force the bolt forward harder. And here's the good bit: you don't need tools, just a very sturdy elastic band. Stretch it from the front of the air reservoir, and hook it onto the cocking handle. Be careful what kind of band you use, as a too powerful band will wear out the trigger sear, and could cause some nasty accidents... on the plus side, the band is easily removed, and the police will be none the wiser.

Using this method, I get a boost in power levels up to 18ft/lbs, however I do find it pointless, as it reduces the amount of shots per fill. My preferred choice in .177 is for the flatter trajectory, although there are people who prefer the stopping power of the .22. My next purchase will be another falcon, but in .20 (best of both worlds IMO). Good marksmanship and field skills will be much more beneficial regardless of what weapon you use. Practice your marksmanship where ever possible, and learn how to trap and snare your prey.

That should have read: "I had to jump through more hoops to get my shotgun license than I did for my firearms license."

I should add, that may have been because I was a regular attendee at my local rifle/pistol club, where as I had done hardly any shotgun, and was not a member of any clay pigeon shooting clubs.

To all those people who are advocating increasing air gun power to >12ft/lb, please ensure that you state that this is strictly for use in a survival/no other option scenario. Increasing the power of these rifles is a breach in firearms legislation, meaning that you could receive up to 10yrs imprisonment for illegal posession of a section 1 firearm.

ATS terms & conditions also state that members should not condone illegal actions.

Just a reminder...

[edit on 1-4-2008 by PaddyInf]

reply to post by PaddyInf

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Perhaps we should add a tag to the bottom of posts suggesting that such ideas and methods are for hypothetical discussion purposes only, and the poster does not accept legal responsibility for those who get their collars felt ifor actually applying them in practice

reply to post by PaddyInf

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Agreed, and I've gone out of my way to point out that doing that is illegal. To be clear, I in no way condone breaking the law, but I think it goes without saying that what we are talking about here is a survival situation where law and order has broken down and/or your life may be at stake.

reply to post by PaddyInf

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Couldn't have said it better myself.

Since the subject of shotguns has been broached, an option for bigger game with any smooth bore arm(shot guns) would be a diabolo shaped slug(airgun pellet shape) into reloads. We tried some in a Brown Bess replica arm and the difference was astonishing as compared to patch and ball. Kill zone(9" pie plate) hits at 70 yards were easy under light wind conditions. Under 40 yards, buck-and-ball is as devastating as any pistol caliber sub-gun fire( with the possible exception of .45 ACP).

For survival purposes only, a sub FAC legal limit precharged airgun in .177 would likely be well above the legal in.25 or larger caliber ie barrel and bolt swap. There is also an arrow firing version of the GunPower Stealth(aka AirForce Talon) that is used here in the US for hunting large game.

There's an airgun revival here in the US as many of our shooting ranges that were once miles away from urban populations are slowly being swallowed up by urban sprawl. We've had 2 closures of ranges here in Austin, Texas area within the last 10 years. Airguns are still largely unregulated in most states. Texans, at least, still see gun ownership, hunting , fishing and other traditional outdoor activities as essential parts of modern life.

When I lived in your country 12 years ago, I was astonished at the lack of interest in archery even amongst rural folk. Bowhunting in the US is a huge industry far exceeding the airgun market in size and scope. Many firearms shooters also bow hunt. I bowhunted deer for years until I decided to keep a low profile.

reply to post by crgintx

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I had the privelige of being invited on a bow-hunt when in the 'states (Pennsylvanian Appalachians) some years ago.

Although I felt rather disgusted at other gun-hunters talking of using 'shredder' rounds or hunting with semi-auto's, my friend took down 2 adult deer per year using only a bow and broadheads. He tracked and killed with grace and respect for his prey...was a true lesson in repect for nature, the hunt, and how to kill with skill and minimal suffering

reply to post by citizen smith

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CS, trust me when I tell you that there are just as many bone-headed bow hunters in the US as there are hunters who use semi-auto rifle with shredder bullets. Bowhunting is well suited for thick pine forests of Pennsylvania or the South Texas mesquite forests but it's a lesson in futility to try such in deserts or grasslands. Most states require controlled expansion bullets for hunting or cast lead of .40 caliber or larger. A controlled expansion bullet can be a soft point or hollowpoint bullet. These are required for hunting the exact reasons their mostly banned from warfare: they're meant to kill and not wound. IMHO Controlled expansion bullets are far more humane to use for hunting than any broadhead for archery. A well placed shot(brain pain/heart lung area) with either CE bullet or broadhead will usually result in an instant kill but opportunities for such shots are few and far between. While working on our family's cattle ranch in '89, one of the saddest moments in my hunting life was when I stumbled across a deer that had been crippled by a just high bow shot that severed his spinal cord just above and behind its heart lung area. It could have moved just enough for the archer to miss and then drug itself into the nigh impenetrable South Texas white thorn brush to escape before the hunter could get to it to dispatch it or any number other scenarios. I dispatched it with my carry pistol and then fired 3 shots to alert either the hunter who wounded it or any game warden nearby. The warden showed up first after about 15 minutes, thanked me and took the deer.

I've known hunters who never take a bad shot and others who can't control their buck fever when the prey is within range of an easy shot and miss the prey entirely. Hunting with a scoped semi-auto firearm won't make getting close enough to the prey any easier than with a lever or bolt action. During hunting season, animals are usually at their most alert and are hard to get. Controlled expansion bullets ensure that the bullet will impart as much energy as possible into its intended target to ensure that instantaneous kill. Until you've hunted with a firearm, don't be too quick to judge the humaneness of the hunter using one. It maybe the only practical choice for them.