It looks like you're using an Ad Blocker.

Please white-list or disable in your ad-blocking tool.

Thank you.


Some features of ATS will be disabled while you continue to use an ad-blocker.


Girl died as parents prayed instead of seeking help

page: 3
<< 1  2    4  5  6 >>

log in


posted on Mar, 26 2008 @ 03:56 PM
reply to post by oLDWoRLDDiSoRDeR

If you have ever been purposefully harmed by a “loved one” you would understand.

I would much rather have lost a leg or even an arm because of “misguided” love than have been though the physical, emotional, and mental abuse that I was put through.

If you see something as love it hurts much less. If you see the hate and anger it only hurts much more.

This is the best way I can describe “better” abuse. I know that all abuse is wrong and as I said these parents were wrong. But they were loving (or seemed to be) though I believe their love was misguided in this case. I also cannot tell these parents how to raise their children without allowing someone to tell me how I am going to raise mine. I believe children are the most important things we have but when it comes to kids there will be no middle ground with the government, they will either control what we do with them or they will be left to our will on how they will be raised.

I also can say that I can sympathize with the parents in the loss of a child. I am a father of two and the oldest sleeps while his brother plays. Losing a child hurts and cuts deeply into your soul, which might be why I feel for any child being harmed, but some forms are better for a child if not in body in mind and soul.

I hope I explained things a little better this time.


posted on Mar, 26 2008 @ 03:56 PM
reply to post by dk3000

Treatment for Diabetes is insulin... It's honestly not terribly expensive. I myself am diabetic and self diagnosed myself. Her parents must be completely delusional to notice notice signs of excessive ketones. Someone mentioned that they have more children? I truly hope that child services take them away from these neglectful parents and put them into a home that can truly care for them before any of them die.

I wonder if the parents realized that there is no cure for Diabetes and that once your pancreas stops working there is no recovery.

These parents are not Christian, they're evil.


posted on Mar, 26 2008 @ 03:58 PM
reply to post by Christian Voice

Diabetes doesn't require drugs. It requires insulin, a hormone produced by every single living being...

You're just replacing what is lost.


posted on Mar, 26 2008 @ 03:58 PM

Originally posted by oLDWoRLDDiSoRDeR

Well on that note .(Since were speculating) Maybe they didn't want to bring her in cause they were sexually abusing her . And they thought the doctors would see it.
Do you think there defence would/should still hold up ?
I mean if its there right to chose what there kids get treated for and not treated for . Where is the line ?

I agree it was not the right thing to do, and I think Raist said that in his initial post. I am in agreement with you there.

As for the sex abuse, sure that is possible. I have seen parents intentionally avoid doctors for reasons like that. But that's obviously speculation, and lets not go the way of guilty until proven innocent.

One one end I am thinking it's completely up to the family. On the other end I am thinking since the child was not an adult, pehaps it's okay if society intervenes. It's a sticky situation. We are talking about freedom here. Overall I don't agree with the "christian science" way. But I don't think the parents had malicious intent, I think they were just uneducated. What's the root of that? Church indoctrination. That's the target, not the parents.

posted on Mar, 26 2008 @ 04:07 PM
reply to post by oLDWoRLDDiSoRDeR

If they were sexually abusing her an autopsy will show that rather quickly. They will and should be punished if that is the case. If that was their reasoning for not taking her than that is the “worse” abuse I was speaking of.

The only way I can really explain this is if you have witnessed abuse that is unloving. Sexual abuse is in that category. Not taking your child to the doctor is not really different than those who refuse to get their kids the shots required to get into public school. The shots still might be a cause of autism I cannot say as I have seen studies on both sides an am unsure. These people may believe that modern medicine may not be much different than how many view the shots. They may think that more harm can come to their daughter by going to the doctor. In a world today that drugs are freely assigned to anyone who asks could there be more harm?

After all how often do we hear about the drugs we are taking are what is harming us most. The article said her condition was treatable not curable. She would have been given drugs and a certain diet more than likely. Again is this much different from a parent not getting their child the shots and the kid getting seriously sick? Or what about those that do get the shots and their child died due to complications? Or what about the doctor’s office that was tossing the needles but reusing the syringes? Do you see how they might have been showing a misguided love?

None of us know the thoughts of the parents we can only speculate on what information given. Given that information I do not see intentional harm desired for the girl, I do see some parents who took the wrong road on this trip and it cost them dearly.


posted on Mar, 26 2008 @ 04:12 PM
Heres some legal aspects of "Faith healing" . May be of some use here .

Freedom to choose faith healing

Withholding medical treatment from children

Religious exemptions in child abuse laws

Legal attack on faith healing

May not support my belief . But is a read on the subject none the less.

Also most parents that "sexually abuse" there kids think there "loving" them . I mean sex is refered to as "Making love" And the children think the same thing . So don't they then too die thinking they were loved ? I know what your trying to say . But "love" is a counterproductive argument here.

I'm not trying to dispute your points . More they way your arguing them i suppose.

[edit on 26-3-2008 by oLDWoRLDDiSoRDeR]

posted on Mar, 26 2008 @ 04:22 PM
reply to post by Lucid Lunacy

Well I can say it is interesting to say the least. I noticed the speaker repeatedly points to intelligence as being above faith, meaning you could not have faith and intelligence both. Or at least that is how I was taking it, if you believe you really are not that smart, only a smart person can think past faith. Defiantly interesting video though, thanks.

But here is an article that may just be a way to fix amputations. Help from God in the form of medical knowledge? I cannot say but it is some very cool stuff.

As for the rest of the questions in it I cannot say I can answer them all others I might be able to answer. I am sure though that some can do a better job at answering them though.


posted on Mar, 26 2008 @ 04:34 PM
reply to post by oLDWoRLDDiSoRDeR

But I am not arguing against you on what the parents did. Maybe we are passing each other on the street here instead of meeting face to face.

I am simply pointing out that there is a difference in abuse and this is on the least harmful overall type.

As for the sexual abuse issues the child never feels they are being “loved” rather they tend to feel often physical pain, emotional trauma showing up as depression and anger. It is called “making love” because it is intended for two adults not child and adult. Children I believe inherently understand this, thus the emotional and mental stresses and abuse this causes.

We can speak about sexual abuse until we turn blue though. At this point there is no proof of such so it is purely speculative. I on the other hand was explaining the difference in this abuse from the other forms.

With this abuse physical harm seems to be the only out come. In the other forms they intermingle resulting in more harm overall. In a way these parents showed to much love the wrong way. They believed the best thing for their girl was to pray this is showing love. They went wrong though in that they were showing to much love in the wrong way, they simply needed to seek medical attention. This in a way is not far from how many other religious peoples live in the U.S. the Amish for instance do not seek many of the modern medical services we take for granted. Their children are not vaccinated most do not even use electricity (though some do), could one not consider this abuse as well? But would it be better for a child to be “loved” to death than “hated” to death?


posted on Mar, 26 2008 @ 04:58 PM

Originally posted by Christian Voice
Perhaps, they were waiting on God to cure her and they didn't want to drug her up in the mean time, but there is a fine line there and they crossed it.

The drug in this case would have been insulin, something the body produces naturally. She was a diabetic and went into insulin shock (from the sounds of it) and died as a result of it.

She was not curable by western medicine, but a simple shot of insulin would have allowed her to live the life she no longer can.

Its a tough situation, but regardless of their beliefs, I believe they made the wrong choice.

posted on Mar, 26 2008 @ 05:05 PM

Originally posted by Christian Voice

Whoa, hold on there skippy.
That went way over the top. Why don't you try and walk a few steps in their shoes for a sec. Her parents didn't stab her in her eyeballs, they prayed for her. While it was perhaps a lack of vision, or sheer stubbornness, they messed up. I'm sure they had no intention of having their daughter die. Saying they should burn in hell is just a straight down right callous and rediculous thing to say.

Not really, it is the OP's opinion.

Lack of vision you say? How about they do not deserve the "right" to be parents. Trying to use prayer to heal their sick child? Nothing like forcing their beliefs on to their children, so they can suffer. I am sure they could have found a clinic if they really wanted to. And how can you not say that they did not intend for their daughter to die? Prayer is not a means of healing. But then again, that is my opinion.

Maybe a metal evalution is in order. Because of this, a child is dead. They might as well have stabbed her in the eye.

posted on Mar, 26 2008 @ 05:11 PM
My heart aches for the parents who have lost their beloved child... and I'll tell you why.

When my daughter was 8 years old, she started getting sick. Nothing you could really put a finger on... she just started getting weak and loosing weight. I took her to the Dr. at one of the best medical facilities in Minnesota, the Duluth Clinic. Dr.'s found nothing wrong with her.

Her condition continued to worsen, I watched as my normally high spirited little girl became more and more withdrawn, and her grades were slipping. She had little interest in playing or participating in any of her other favorite interests. After 30 more days I took her to the Dr./Clinic again. They did blood tests, X-rays, urinalysis... all the regular tests. They found nothing wrong. They suggested that maybe as a middle child she was just acting out for attention, and I was supposed to not show any interest in her medical complaints.

Jenny became weaker and was still loosing weight, all she wanted to eat was candy bars and soda. I tried to get her to eat normal meals, but she wouldn't, and if she did... she would throw it all up. I would get so worried about her lack of food that even though it was against her Dr.'s orders I would give her one Snickers and a 7up a day. I'd call the Dr. every week and get berated for not being a good parent and allowing my child to rule me.

Finally it was the end of the school year... I was so happy because she had been missing so much school. I had the School Board on my a$$ about her attendance. They were threatening me with having Social Services come into our home and do an evaluation to see if I was a fit parent. I was not involved in any Social programs, so they could not threaten me financially... but they were still putting the pressure on.

As June faded into July, my daughter continued to weaken and withdraw. I was worried sick and taking her to the Dr. every two weeks. The Dr. had been contacted by Social Services... and on my last visit July 6th they informed me that the felt that I was the problem and mentioned Munchausen Syndrome by Proxy;

MUNCHAUSEN BY PROXY (MBP) (also called Munchausen Syndrome by Proxy, Munchausen by Proxy Syndrome, and Factitious Disorder by Proxy) is a label for a pattern of behavior in which caretakers deliberately exaggerate and/or fabricate and/or induce physical and/or psychological-behavioral-mental health problems in others.

This pattern of behavior constitutes a separate kind of maltreatment (abuse/neglect) that manifests as physical abuse, sexual abuse, emotional abuse, neglect, or a combination. The primary purpose of this behavior is to gain some form of internal gratification, such as attention, for the perpetrator.

OMG! They thought I was intentionally making my daughter ill so I could get attention and sympathy. I was crushed. Then they said if I didn't stop bringing here into the Dr. for no reason I would be charged with child abuse!

Mid July and it is time for Summer Bible School. Jenny did not want to attend, but I made her go. The ladies teaching the school decided that Jenny was Anorexic and spread that rumor far and wide. The day before graduation Jenny was too weak to go to school or even get up to eat or drink anything. I was terrified. If I brought her to the Dr. they were going to arrest me for child abuse and take my kids away, if I didn't take her she might die!

Fu@k them and what they thought! I took her to the ER! She was so wasted away they could not even find a vein to put in an IV. The flew in an Anesthesiologist to get an IV in her. Jenny lapsed into a coma before the anesthesiologist got there. Upon arrival this beautiful angel of a Dr. who was a diabetic herself got an IV started and immediately ordered a blood sugar level... that was it! Jenny had Type 1 juvenile diabetes! She was flown to a Juvenile ICU where she remained in a coma for six days. I never left her side, and I prayed for her continuously... and I can honestly say that God never left her or my side that entire time.

It took us awhile to get used to the diabetes... a crash course in medicine was necessary for her to leave the hospital. Needless to say we both survived. She has been in two comas since then because she is a brittle diabetic. To this day we both have to be very vigilant about her diabetes... so much so that Jenny now has an infusion pump that she wears 24X7.

What I want to illustrate here is that even with the best insurance (BC+BS) and Doctors, it is up to parents to ensure that their kids survive a medical situation. You just have to go with what your instinct tells you is right. This little girl in Wisconsin could have easily been my Jenny 13 years ago. And I as a parent, I would have been blamed and cursed just as harshly as those parents are. They have lost a beloved child, and there is nothing you or society can do or say to them that would be any worse then the price they have already payed.

Before you start casting stones, make sure you know ALL of what has happened. If they had Social Services and Dr.'s threatening them like I did...

But for the grace of God and a Diabetic Anesthesiologist who knew what to look for... my child survived. All those medical tests Jenny had, and no one did a blood sugar level.

posted on Mar, 26 2008 @ 05:26 PM
reply to post by yankeerose

Deep story... although it's weird that they didn't find out it was diabetes earlier.

When I was diagnosed this past (after my parents brushed my symptoms off as "puberty") summer I simply told my physician my symptoms and he immediately sent me a blood test to check my blood sugars. He later told me that he knew I had diabetes before the test due to the symptoms.

I don't think you are to blame at all in this situation, it is merely the doctors who had a complete lack of judgment not to diagnose a very common disease.


posted on Mar, 26 2008 @ 05:49 PM
reply to post by MitchMagic

I agree, I can't imagine them overlooking the possibility of blood sugar issues when that's usually one of the first things they look for when somebody is having unexplained symptoms. I get a full blood panel yearly and I don't even have diabetes or any family history of it.

Either way, at least the poster above made an effort to get their child help, and if I were them I would be looking into options for the possibility of a malpractice suit, if they overlooked something so basic, they should not be practicing medicine.

However, the parents of this article are beyond stupid. There is nothing I detest more than organized religion, ALL of them. What better way for evil to prevail than to fool the masses into believing they are following a righteous god, yet have no tolerance for and even kill those who disagree with the book they choose to follow. Only the devil himself would desire to see parents watch and do NOTHING as their child lay suffering, scared and helpless until she died, when a simple injection would have had her up and running with her friends again. We have brains, and thumbs for a reason, "god" (the positive one) gave them to us so we may help ourselves, instead of begging to the air for help. SICK.

posted on Mar, 26 2008 @ 05:51 PM
reply to post by 27jd

It's another life claimed in the name of religion. If I followed religion then I would say this:

"God gave you a brain, now go use it!"


posted on Mar, 26 2008 @ 06:00 PM
This is such a sad situation its almost unreal. I teach medical practitioners prayer and metaphysical means of overcoming issues that do not respond to medical care. I teach the spiritual symptoms of spirit attack and healing according to the Christian Mysteries in the Bible. I teach the laying of hands and the raising of the dead if certain criteria are met. I teach when to recommend hypnosis and other means to buy time in medical conditions so that unresponsive patients can have every chance to be healed possible, when standard treatments fail.

I make them sign their name next to this:

Medical Disclaimer:
Spiritual healing and products are not substitutes for professional medical care.
For medical assistance, see your doctor. The techniques mentioned here are for educational purposes only; information contained within, should not be used to diagnose or treat a health problem. Consult a licensed physician if you have health problems and you require a medical diagnosis or medical advice or treatment. We assume no responsibility for misuse. Spiritual healing should always be used IN ADDITION TO proper licensed medical care.

My new practitioner manual (not available to the public) has the same disclaimer and they will sign that as well or not receive it.

posted on Mar, 26 2008 @ 06:07 PM

Originally posted by Illahee
Spiritual healing should always be used IN ADDITION TO proper licensed medical care.

I agree completely. I consider myself a spiritual individual, but not religious by any means. I believe fully in attacking a problem from all angles, if only the parents of this girl were intelligent enough to pray for her recovery WHILE getting her the immediate attention she so desperately needed...

posted on Mar, 26 2008 @ 06:16 PM

Originally posted by 27jd
if only the parents of this girl were intelligent enough to pray for her recovery WHILE getting her the immediate attention she so desperately needed...

Most doctors will agree, if they have any extended amount of experience that many cases should respond to treatment but either don't or respond sluggishly, and that there is an element outside of medicine that should be included.

They will seldom say what that inclusion should be.

posted on Mar, 26 2008 @ 06:22 PM

Originally posted by Illahee
They will seldom say what that inclusion should be.

The other elements, IMO, should always include spirituality, hope, and educated nutrition (meaning nutrition that doesn't interfere with the medical tx; like some antioxidants can interfere with cancer tx).

posted on Mar, 26 2008 @ 06:28 PM
One question for god believers please, do you believe that god intervenes with earthly affairs? Or do you think that god leaves us to our own devices?

posted on Mar, 26 2008 @ 06:30 PM
You people who are advocating Jail for these parents are controll freaks.
Get over it!
It is not your child.

Do you want to raise your children the way you think they should be raised or do you want the government to do it for you?

Another poster here is correct. This weak/imperfect gene for this condition will not be passed on. That is nature's way of keeping the population strong.

The human specis has 4000+ heritable defects. The defective should be educated on the matter so that they can give serious consideration as to whether they want to impose this defect on their children, and all subsequent generations.

new topics

top topics

<< 1  2    4  5  6 >>

log in