Is the Cross Just Another Lie? (Revised), page 4

Originally posted by MatrixProphet
So you have been sent in as a heavy hitter? Yes, most of what you are saying has been discussed already. Please excuse me if I do not rehash it all again.

Ya, I'm kind of the resident loudmouth Christian.

Of course! There are engravings of the cross on sarcophagi that goes back to ancient Egypt. And it was used in their worship. Many Christians adopted beliefs from other pagan societies and incorporated them into Christianity...eventually.

Absolutely. But what would define things as a slam dunk match or a coincidence? And are you referring to the Egyptian Ankh, the fertility symbol? Let me know before I respond further.

It might behoove you to study more about Constantine and his connection to the cross and the establishment of Christianity.

I already have and know what all he was up to. He was an odd one, no doubt, and did a lot more harm than good regardless of his intentions. He definitely left a historical stink bomb for Christians to clean up.

"These crosses were used as symbols of the Babylonian sun-god, and are first seen on a coin of Julius Caesar, 100-44 B.C. and then on a coin struck by Caesar's heir (Augustus), 20 B.C. On the coins of Constantine their most frequent symbol is (an x with a circle), but; the same symbol is used without the surrounding circle, and with the four equal arms vertical and horizontal; and this was the symbol specially venerated as the 'Solar Wheel.' It should be stated that Constantine was a sun-god worshiper, and would not enter the 'Church' till some quarter of a century after the legend of his having seen such a cross in the heavens." -The Companion Bible, see also "The Non-Christian Cross."

Again, absolutely. There have been many cross symbolisms throughout history. See: HERE.

For comparison, See: STAR SYMBOLS and CIRCLE SYMBOLS. Just like the star symbol or circle symbol, the 'T' symbol is also frequently used although the meanings for certain things differ dramatically. So is the same with the Christian cross compared to other 'T/t' symbols used for other things. I simply don't see an issue.

I am sorry but I do not accept elusive comments like: 5,000 -25,000 first century Greek texts that confirm that Jesus died on a cross, especially when I read what the scholars have written or discovered, especially without documented proof. Ambiguous comments do not ring true.

As in, Greek New Testament and extrabiblical manuscripts dating back to 1st century A.D. They verify the crucifixion by eye witnesses. Then in the 2nd century, secular sources are also found.

And please remember, there was much apostasy in the first century amongst the Christians and dispute among them regarding what was actual truth. They were being hit with philosophy from many segments - Hellenism, Roman beliefs, gnosticism, etc. etc. For anyone to assume or to imply that none actual got incorporated into the Christian doctrine (along with the cross) would be showing a sign of ignorance.

Roman, maybe. I will give you that and ignore forming a rebuttal for now. As for Hellenistic or Gnostic philosophy, this simply seems illogical once you understand what they entail.

I thought you were aware; there was very little actually recorded in the first century as most information was transmitted orally!

Oh, I am definitely aware of this. And this fact even enhances my argument. Considering oral tradition was so rampant in 1st century A.D. due to lack of materials and literacy of the population, the tremendous amount of references that actually exist concerning Jesus and the crucifixion is amazing. As some have said before, more writings concerning Jesus exist than pretty much anything else in antiquity.

To say that there were as many as 5,000 to 25,000 texts? There are many books that would inform you otherwise. Actually to hear actual scholars speak (there have been many documentaries lately), they say that there was very little recorded in the first century, and that what was actually recorded is; being questioned as to their authority or origin. I am surprised you did not know this!

No, I know this. Not sure why you keep getting condescending and assuming I do not know these things. Anyways, again, yes. There are approximately 5,000 complete NT manuscripts of some 25,000 Greek segments. So what do I care if 'many books inform me otherwise?' It does not make these manuscripts magically disappear from existence.

Yes, there were many historians within the first three centuries. Unfortunately none were around at the time of Jesus death. Anything said about his death would be conjecture.

Thank goodness for the eye witness NT manuscripts then!

[edit on 3/30/2008 by AshleyD]