Sterilise parents receiving government benefits, says Tory

reply to post by MaMaa


Your example typifies just how the welfare system was meant to be used, and I've been in the same place myself and am grateful for living in a nation that has such a system in place to aid those in need of temporary financial support.

The 'sterilisation issue' posed by the OP, however, is aimed at those who adopt the attitude that the welfare state is a career choice for life, rather than as it was originally designed for...temporary aid

In my own life-situation, whenever I have fallen on hard times and had no where else to turn but the welfare state, I have divided my time between looking for employment and working as a volunteer in the community as a Citizen's Advice Bureaux legal advocate...If I can give back in time and effort what I claim for finacially, why the hell can't the many others who recieve state support?

The benefits system in the UK is totaly mad. My father was mad redundant from his job and went to the jobcentre where he was offered something stupid like 11.43 a week to keep a wife and 3 fairly yound kids...

Yet my uncle who errr... can't work... gets a house, benefits and can afford to go to the pub every day. The truth is he could work and the sole reason his wife doesnt work is because if she goes to work he looses his benefits.

It really is a sad situation where young women can live off the state just by having a few children. As for steralising them, the only problem is their human rights. Atleast this guy has the balls to say what a good few other people are thinking.

See, i think that peopel have it wrong here. its a simple bit of voluntary sterilization when you get down to it.

You want welfare? get sterilized and stop plonking out kids while on the public teat.


... or get a job.

Originally posted by CoffinFeeder
See, i think that peopel have it wrong here. its a simple bit of voluntary sterilization when you get down to it.

You want welfare? get sterilized and stop plonking out kids while on the public teat.


... or get a job.

Oh my goodness I cant believe I didnt think of that! An elegant solution to the problem. Kudos, star, and hats off to you sir.

-Ive been posting far too much in this thread, so Ill shut up and let others speak now. Save for any personal replies to any of my posts, I think Ill have to be silent. Good day to you all-

All right so this is my first post but I've been reading this forum for a while.

All I can really say is WOW!!!! this guy actually got elected to public office? I mean this sounds like something you would hear coming out of communist china not the UK, I mean seriously its not like this type of behavior is a genetic trait its taught to these peoples children.
Rather than do a "forced sterilization campaign" which violates the most basic of human rights. Why don't we just eliminate welfare all together and force people to take responsibility for themselves. The fact is 80 % of the people on welfare are perfectly capable of taking care of themselves they just fell into a rut and never got out.

We should allow Little Britain's Vicky Pollard to join this debate to hear a viewpoint from the other side of the fence...



"..Shut up! Shut up! Shut up! Don’t go givin’ me evils!

...Yeah well you lot have not even got nothing to do with my giro anyway so just leave it out, or whatever! God stop getting involved. I know why I’m claiming benefits, You are well out of order because I was thirteen when I had my second child, anyway have you been talking to Aaron Peal? Cause let me tell you about Aaron Peal, right cause listen to this!

Right, cause, I never not even done nothing or nothing, because let me tell you the whole thing right, because Michelle Bingham, who’s a complete bitch anyway has been completely going around saying that I went into Shelley Thackerell’s back, and nicked a bottle of Cinzano, but I never, but I did, but only cause you’re not actually supposed to have alcohol on school grounds, actually and I was gonna give it to Miss Turvey, but I forgot and drank it, and I only got found out cause I was getting off with Asif Shar behind the language lab and I was sick in his mouth.

Yeah well but, no but, and anyway talk to the face cause the hand ain’t listening, cause Aaron Peal is like a total batty boy, and he ain’t got no pubes, and he’s well out of order cause he’s been completely going around saying that I like smoke and drank when I was pregnant, but all I did was smoke like two packets of fags a day, drink like fifty pints of Snakebite, but apart from that I never done nothing apart from sign-on, so you can well shut up you total mingers!.."



[edit on 26-3-2008 by citizen smith]

[edit on 26-3-2008 by citizen smith]

I am sorry to say my Mother was like this and my father was a lost cause. My Mom stayed on the dole after her and my father split. They had kids like it was free and then they got divorced... My father spent all of his money at the race track or whatever the state didn't take for child support.

For the kids living on the "dole" it is no picnic... I had 5 sisters and I was the only son. By the end of the month we were frying bread crumbs and eating ketchup packets... In the summer we used to walk to the supermarket and eat all the samples and then pick apples on the way back.

Enough of the sad story... My point here is I make about 60k a year after putting myself through school and if they would have sterilized my Mother I wouldn’t be here paying taxes for those that are using the system today... Kind of a paradox if you think about it. I do see the point about the abuse but I hope there are more good citizens than bad coming out the other end so to speak...

I would be mortified if I had to use the system. It scares the hell out of me. One thing they did here in the United States was take away the stigma of "food stamps" and gave the user a bridge card. It just looks like a credit card now. The reasoning was that it dehumanized the user... I would say it would be an incentive to get off the "drug"...

btw... None of my sisters are or ever were on the dole in their adult years either. So we are all paying back our share of what we "used" as kids. Sorry about that btw...

How about a baby IQ test. They fail, and we toss them into a vat of acid. Jesus, look...........This is a good example of a person that thinks they are more important than they are. People fall on hard times, so what. Many even with kids have made it out of that mess. I think that when people come up with ideas like this, we feed them to lions on live TV.

I touched on this subject in another post of mine in another topic.
While Sterilising people may a bit extreme, something definatly needs to be done.
I know people that are just having kid after kid so it means they wont have to go and get a job. These kids are born into mostly loveless homes, with no space and ill equiped parent/parents. Parents so selfish they would rather mess up a childs life before sorting their own.

reply to post by citizen smith


I dunno where you go that picture from, but did you notice that all those kids are about the same age?

reply to post by palehorse23


This was suggested to Winston Churchill by letter. Churchill replied, saying it was a good idea, but that it wasn't the sort of suggestion that should be sent via correspondence.

Some of you think that just cutting the benefits if they have more kids is a good idea. Are you forgetting that those existing kids will likely starve?
It is after all the parents that we are trying to impress is it not?

Someone mentioned putting the children in Foster homes.
You apparently know nothing of Foster homes or you would not even mention it.

And apparently they do not get impressed very easily. Therefore mandatory sterilization is the only cure.

For those who are screaming "rights". Tell me what is your solution?
Any person's freedom/rights Terminate/Come to an End when they interfere with/terminate the freedom/rights of another.

Do you agree with this? If not why not? Would you say that the rights/freedoms of the Have Nots are more important than the rights/freedoms of the Haves?

Taking my money to support the product of their "rights" is interfrering with/terminating a portion of my Rights.

I care about other people to the extent that they care about taking the responsibility for their own lives. If they are "down on their luck" and need a helping hand I will give it to them.

reply to post by OhZone


you're forgetting that a lot of the folk from the social demographic we are discussing here equate a hand-OUT as being a hand-UP...which is totally the wrong way to go about remedying the situation.

Your solution is akin to giving a junkie cash for their next fix because they are in pain, rather than address the root cause of 'habitual addiction to a lifestyle' in the first place

[edit on 26-3-2008 by citizen smith]

reply to post by jackinthebox


the pic i posted and dialogue 'in the style of..' is from a comedy sketch show called 'Little Britain'

here's a wee sample...social observational comedy at its funniest

Originally posted by jackinthebox
reply to post by citizen smith

 

I dunno where you go that picture from, but did you notice that all those kids are about the same age?

Yeah that's from a comedy "little britain"
That girl is actually a man lol.

It is horrible to say the least that some government body has any control over our decisions in life and what we do with our body , let alone sterilization.
I disagree with this idea of sterilization so you can only have one child, we are not over populated here in the UK either.
I do disagree however, with families that use the system's money , by having more children to increase there benefits.
But I think predigest people should stay out of there business, it is up to us whether or not we have more than one child.
Also , they are not harming us in any way.
That is my view on it.

Alright. I was hoping to be able to post before this got out of hand, but it appears I am too late.
What is really getting to me is that the people against this idea are twisting the story. This is about those that abuse the system, not everyone that needs help getting off their feet. There is a huge difference here. No matter how you look at it, you cannot deny the fact that there are people that take advantage of benefits by continually pumping out kids.
Some of you claim that it is a GOD given right to have children. To you
I ask....do you think GOD would approve of those that have children for purposes other than raising a family and actually contributing to society? I do not think he would condone this behavior. If you cannot take the responsibility of holding a job and raising a family in the proper way it was intended, then you shouldn't be raising children. Yes there are special circumstances. And for those that have special circumstances, it's the abusers that are making it difficult for the ones that really need the help. There are always abusers that end up ruining it for those who are really in need.
And this article should raise questions about child benefits globally. It is just as big of a problem here in the US as it is in the UK. There are so many examples of welfare abuse. A big case happened in my town a few years ago. A woman had seven children and was on welfare. She cried and cried that she got no child support from any of the four fathers. So she went on assistance program. Okay fine. She was then found to be using the money she received for things other than feeding, clothing, housing, the kids. She was also caught writing bad checks I believe. So while in court, the judge reviewed her history. He found that she clearly was abusing the system. He had threatened that if she had more than one more child, measures would be taken to "curb" her child rearing. Either jail or the voluntary sterilization route. He gave her the choice. Well, low and behold, this year, the woman was back in court with two more kids on the list. So, the judge asked her which way she wanted to go. She chose incarceration. So, he gave her the maximum sentence possible for fraudulent check writing, endangering the welfare of a child, and larceny. So in this case, which is an extreme one, how do you think the kids are doing now? They have no mother or father in their lives. Don't you think if she was made to have sterilization, some of these children might have been saved from an unhappy life? They didn't asked to be brought into this world under these circumstances. Why let it get to this point?
Sterilization does seem like a harsh solution. And there are other options out there such as the licensing, exams, etc. But nothing seems to be getting done about the abusers. Maybe something harsh needs to be done in order to get the message across that free hand-outs will not be tolerated.
I guess it does boil down to personal responsibility. But it seems to me that people are not taking the responsibility of wisely raising a family and supporting them through there own sweat and tears instead of reaping benefits from those of us that do put in the effort.
I am all for lending a helping hand but not giving out free passes.

Originally posted by OhZone
For those who are screaming "rights". Tell me what is your solution?
Any person's freedom/rights Terminate/Come to an End when they interfere with/terminate the freedom/rights of another.

Do you agree with this? If not why not? Would you say that the rights/freedoms of the Have Nots are more important than the rights/freedoms of the Haves?

Taking my money to support the product of their "rights" is interfering with/terminating a portion of my Rights.

The way you phrased that indicates to me (perhaps not correctly) that you equate reproduction with a civil liberty or some similar 'social' contract. Perhaps declaring it as a right is actually not the appropriate way to articulate my view point - which differs from yours nonetheless.

My opinion (I you don't mind my saying so) is that reproduction is a natural function of life. A biological imperative that is part of the human condition. I need not seek 'approval' from anyone to engage in that which is biologically natural for me to do. The problem here isn't that I (for the sake of argument) choose, perhaps foolishly, to reproduce like a hamster. The problem is that we have created a social support system that impinges on everyone even if they disagree with my actions. What needs to change is the model by which this 'support' manifests itself.

If you go down the road of sterilization (assuming it's mandated and involuntary) you open a new pathway for a government intrusion on you're most basic activities. What if they extend this (a little at a time for this scenario) to - Fat people cost us health care money - mandate stomach stapling; or, loud people are obnoxious, zap -now you're mute. They are too tall, they are too short, - here we go down eugenic blvd. en route to a better world where you're only remaining freedom is to choose the time of your death. It sounds outrageous, but then so is sterilization as a government tool for behavior issues.

I thin

The guy is a genius but going about it all in the wrong way and some of the posts here made me laugh reading comments like scrounging off the government and stealing my hard earned cash that i had to pay in tax.. some of you should really open your eyes what about the billions of pounds that goes to Brussels every year that we never see again a lot more than the benefit systems costs i don't see any one bitching about that but any way back on topic..

Right the guy has the right idea or does he, as a nation we are now literally dying there's more old people compared to young people so we need to change this and this is why our benefit system is so easy for people to cash in on, most young girls these days know how to screw the system and make there life cushy they know if they get pregnant that the they wont have to leave school and get a job as long as that have a kid/s and the young lads know they can get a girl up the duff and move in to a nice council house with her and then go claim the dole and they also know how to screw the dole system to stay out of work and keep claiming job seekers i believe its called these days BUT the government know that this and let it happen to increase the amount of births every year so they can grow up to be adults get jobs or claim benefits but don't forget even tho there some of them are claiming benefits and some of us have jobs they still buy things making the corporations money and the government then tax corporation and so it goes on and on, something else ive wondered about is maybe giving out benefits so easily and then those on benefits spend it on there Nike, lonsdale etc keeps the money out of Brussels piggy bank and keeps it in the UK. you see you have to look at why the benefit system exists and why they hand it out so freely and why the government would do this from the goodness of the hearts ? i think not, im expecting once the population as recovered and the ratio is balanced that they will pull the rug from under there feet and stop benefits and make it more harder for them to claim it and force them back into work.

Im not saying that its right to screw the benefit system for all its worth but look at the bigger picture there has to be a reason for it to be so accessible.

Now for those that seem to think that all people on benefits are scroungers let me give you a few examples and see if you agree with me

24 year old man claimed benefits for years and pissed it all up the wall ?
Wrong.

Woman single parent with qualifications 2 kids one 8 month old and the other 6 years of age recently divorced lives in a council house claims benefits ? wrong she could put the 8 month old in a creche and go out to work part time and the government should help out with rent, council tax and bills(gas,water,electricity).

a couple have 3 children 2 of which are disabled that require a lot of looking after and one other child who is not of school age both disabled children go to school but still require a lot of help and have many hospital appointments during the week ? acceptable.

couple 50 - 60 years of age both medically retired since early 40's worked all there life and payed off there mortgage before retirement but both claim benefits as they are unemployable ? acceptable.

young couple 16 - 25 years of age 3 children from different fathers had her first when 14 both never worked a day in there lives ? wrong.

you see not every one on benefits are scroungers and have no other choice than to claim them but people seem to tar them all with the same brush, i believe there should be a benefits system there but to only help out those that needed it i also believe that there should be job seekers benefit But it needs to have guide lines and time limits, maximum amount of time you can claim it should be 3 month's with an option for an extension under certain circumstances and those that do find employment on basic wage should be able to have some help to cover rent, council tax and bills(gas,water,electricity) as long as there on a low income, couples with children who both have full time jobs but low income should also get help with rent, council tax, bills(gas,water,electricity).
But also the adult education system needs sorting out so people working for a low income should be able to get training to help them find better more payed jobs and to be able to train after work or weekends.

anyway my 2 pence worth

Originally posted by palehorse23
Alright. I was hoping to be able to post before this got out of hand, but it appears I am too late.

Yup, I'd say so

..., you cannot deny the fact that there are people that take advantage of benefits by continually pumping out kids.
Some of you claim that it is a GOD given right to have children. To you
I ask....do you think GOD would approve of those that have children for purposes other than raising a family and actually contributing to society? ...., Why let it get to this point?

Of course, I can't disagree. However, for one thing, I am not inclined to second guess what God thinks of anything - I don;t mean that as a cop-out answer, I mean I am cautious about mucking about in reproductive affairs. I have children myself, and having witnessed first-hand their effect on my life, I find it hard to believe that it could be called the 'easy' way. But that's just me.

Sterilization does seem like a harsh solution.

I can't really see it as a 'solution' at all. Not any more than a bullet to the head is a solution for a headache. We need to change the 'benefit' of runaway child bearing, as well as the mindset that encourages it. That would be a solution. More difficult to achieve for certain, but less invasive and disrespectful to the human we're hypothetically speaking of, whether they are belligerent and exploitative or simply unwilling to take precautions and avoid unnecessarily burdening the community around them.

Thanks for listening.

[edit on 26-3-2008 by Maxmars]