The Greatest Conspiracy Ever Perpetrated: My Interpretation.

reply to post by AshleyD

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Starred and flagged Ash. I also starred and flagged the OP. I think that you made some important points, especially those involving a deep spiritual relationship with God. The fact that you are not controlled by anyone including the man made rules and regulations of your own religion in quite admirable. Unfortunately not everyone is not as intelligent as you, not everyone is altruistic, and not everyone actually believes in the religion they are peddling off on others. There are those that create an atmosphere of fear and control, often supposedly speaking on god's behalf. Though you may not fall for it, many have willingly, leading them to be manipulated and controlled in God's name. This has happened in countless countries throughout history. Religions, especially those of Christian origin, have been used to control many, I cannot dispute that.... and I'm not sure how you can either.

Should such control happen? It most certainly should not.

Should those who believe in God have the view you have? Certainly, because you worship God and not the religion.

I am not a Christian, and I happen to agree with much the OP had to say. I also happen to agree with much of what you have to say in this instance. However, control through religion has been commonplace for quite some time. It is those of weak wills, and weak mindsets that allow it to happen to them. Unfortunately this is a good portion of the population. You have the right idea as far as how you view your religion and I commend you for it.... but there are plenty that are enslaved by the religious leaders that claim to be there to save their souls. I hope you can see that.

PS - I officially apologize for the statements I made in The Gullibility of Evolutionists thread. That thread was completely out of control, it pissed me off, you happened to be the epicenter of the thread, and I took it out on you. Sorry.

Aw, thanks. Not sure how you can flag a comment, though. But seriously, it didn't seem fair to pick it apart since he admitted it was only his personal interpretation and 'imagination' but figured I'd give it a shot at least in order to clarify some things.



I have to say I agree with you. The O.P. seems to have been describing the origin of religion in general but only focused on Judeo-Christianity so that is what I focused on as well. I also agreed with the O.P. in that aspects of Judaism can appear to be 'controlling' from an outsider's view (including my own I will admit) as well as some sects of Christianity. So, I will agree with you when you say the same thing.







No worries whatsoever. My apologies as well.

Two green bottle...


All religious and political movements start off small, local and personal. As they grow bigger and more successful, they become institutionalized, concentrating power in a hierarchy ruled by an elite. This continues until the controlling minority has grown so distant from the mass of followers that they are widely perceived to have betrayed the trust of the people in favour of their own selfish agenda. Then there is a revolution or some other form of popular renewal, power changes hands and the whole cycle starts all over again. The revolutionaries become the new rulers or priests, grow powerful and corrupt in their turn, and in their turn are turfed out. Depressing, I know, but this is one of the ways in which all human institutions operate. The Reformation was just another example.

It has happened in Christianity quite often -- the early doctrinal battles, the Great Schism, the Franciscan movement and so on. The endless proliferation of Protestant denominations, each believing in a slightly different revelation from the next, is a particularly amusing example. In fact, this is even how Christianity started out -- as a popular replacement for huge, expensive pagan rites and institutions that had begun to seem increasingly distant and irrelevant to the people of the Empire.

You are wrong to speak of Christianity as an outgrowth of Judaism. The two are connected only in a historical sense. Christianity is a Roman religion invented to meet Roman needs -- that fact that its doctrines are based on the teachings of a revolutionary Jewish rabbi is neither here nor there.


On the contrary. Christians gather together every week in a big room to hear a man on a platform tell them what to feel, believe, think and do. They constantly judge and police each other inside their respective congregations. The official doctrine and code of conduct may vary from church to church but it is always very clearly understood by those within that church; the ruling elite (priests, pastors, TV preachers, bishops, what have you) work it out in detail and disseminate it. Woe betide you if you do not comply; you become a maverick, an eccentric, eventuallly an outsider in your church.

All this business about a direct link with God is just Lutheran propaganda. Any Christian who insists upon a truly personal, unmediated relationship with his deity will quickly find himself isolated and eventually expelled from the community -- though he may still be acknowledged, for form's sake, as a believer.

He can, of course, still pray and read his Bible. But he will no longer be a member in good standing of his particular sect. In America, where religion is branded, packaged and marketed like any other consumer product, he may quite easily find another sect to accept him and his beliefs; American Christianity is all about ego and money and pastors are always looking for more marks to shake down. But as soon as finds his new church, the rugged individualist will once again find that he is expected to feel, believe, think and do just what his new pastor and congregation demand.

One green bottle...


They all belong to the same species, Homo Sapiens. Their bodies and particularly their brains are of similar construction, they build similar societies and for most of human prehistory they lived roughly similar lives. Myth is simply a way of explaining things not accessible to direct knowledge, using the shared symbols, images and archetypes that populate the human collective unconscious (which is nothing telepathic or mystical, just a by-product of the way our shared brain software works). There were no dragons in history or prehistory; but there were 'dragons' in our heads, and still are. Nothing more is required to explain the correspondence of myths from different cultures.

[edit on 27-3-2008 by Astyanax]

Thanks for the history lesson. I did go to college. Got kicked out twice but I did go. Promise. Now onto the meat and potatoes of your comment, post history lesson.



This has conspiracy theory and a historical rewrite all over it. Sorry but I'm not picking up what you're putting down. Not only is illogical, it is also not historically accurate or religiously sound. Sorry, no dice. I don't have to time to rebut something so vague but I've heard it all before. Rome/Catholicism did not found Christianity. Period. And Christianity most definitely is an outgrowth of Judaism. Sorry.



I don't. But thanks.



I'm not Lutheran. Thanks again. Nor do I adhere to much of Luther's teachings.



What on earth are you talking about? It seems like you are referring to something like excommunication. Sorry, but that is more controlling stuff I don't worry about.



I'm nondenominational and a 'home studier' and have no such problems.



Memes. But it is yet another possible explanation, I'll give you that. After all, this thread is mainly a personal interpretation thread. Won't argue your view with you. You're welcome to it.

[edit on 3/27/2008 by AshleyD]

...No green bottle!


Christianity was invented by a man called Saul of Tarsus, a Cilician Jew and Roman citizen. It is based on the teachings of that other well-known Jew, Jesus of Nazareth. So much I grant you. But a cursory glance at those teachings, at least as they are preserved in the New Testament, will show that they contradict Jewish doctrine and custom at almost every turn. They were a reaction against Judaism, not an outgrowth of it. The revisionism is not on my part but your coreligionists'. It is the conspiracy to which the OP alludes.


Then you're one of the mavericks, and your churchgoing friends don't think much of your brand of Christianity. Faith is personal, but religion is a communal thing.


'Lutheran' need not mean 'of the Lutheran church'. It also means 'of Martin Luther'. The 'direct link with God' was a conception of Luther's, much alluded to in his writings.


Nothing so formal. More like being sent to Coventry. But the effect is the same.


See above.


Not memes. Archetypes. They are the polar opposite of memes. You have quite misunderstood what I was saying.

Yes. I've heard of that viewpoint, too. It also comes with many problems as well. Both logical and evidentiary.



A 'cursory glance,' perhaps. But I like to delve deeper.



Can you elaborate?



I completely understand what you are getting at but it goes back to whether or not you want to worry about what 'friends' think or what 'God' thinks. Granted, communal worship and gatherings are nice but not required like some sects teach (Catholicism, for example, teaches you can only achieve salvation by being apart of their church). To me, church is a perk to gather with like-minded believers and to separate yourself from the rat race that is the secular world, if even only for a few hours on Sunday mornings. I view it like baptism or communion- it's nice but not a requirement. Again, there are always thought that will disagree.



I understand that which is why I also said, "Nor do I adhere to much of Luther's teachings." The 'direct link with God' was not a concept started by Luther. He only 're-popularized' it after having the concept hidden for so long by forcing the people to believe a pope or saints were necessary as a link.



Again, I certainly see where you are coming from but in my opinion such people can toss off. Just my two cents. The actual faith never mentions such a thing. The only thing remotely close that is mentioned is to distance ourselves from false doctrine and teachers.



Then you might either need to repeat it or wait until morning when I am wide awake and can reread it.

*Edited to fix quote tags*

[edit on 3/27/2008 by AshleyD]

wow, you guys get seriously fired up don't ya!!

i would just like to say in response to the origional post by that brilliant person who wrote it....

thank you, i'm glad there are other people who think along the same lines as me. I'm not going to get into detail about the things i've heard/ read/ discussed about christianity and some of the churches doings, (for fear of being killed by someone from this thread) but i will say, i am not an atheist, i believe in something, i feel something amazing in my soul, and a deep connection with something i can not see nor hear nor touch, but when it comes to thinking logically, i find it ironic as ever, that some people believe wholeheartedly that the world was made in seven days, the entire population manifested from 2 people, and that god made the world without the light on! (sorry, but it does say that!)

but yet we don't believe that simple trickery is all around us or it's possible for life to exist elsewhere!

just sayin!

What I find ironic about this thread; since someone ask. Is the fact
that atheist have conspired together to attack all religion, belief in a
Creator, and Christianity in particular. Then mojo comes up with this
thread. Insinuating that all religion is a grand conspiracy!

Some of you have brought up the point and question about; Christianity claiming to be the only way and Evangelicals condemning everybody else.
If you would read and study the Bible for yourselves; and not just accept
second hand information from others. Then you would "Know the truth,
and the truth would set you free".

Romans 2:14 For when the Gentials (those who do not have the law or precepts of God, given by the prophets) which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:"
So you see, as Jesus said, "I have many others, that are not of this fold,
that I must also bring with me". There are many, and have been many others, that don't have the exact understanding of God's salvation, as do
Christians or Jews. But they have enough understanding to save them.
All it takes is the "faith of the seed of a mustard tree". A tree seed,
doesn't have to try to have faith, it just does.

reply to post by AshleyD

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Umm.... I flagged you magically.... yeah that's it. I have magical flagging abilities..... I guess

[edit on 27-3-2008 by Osiris1953]

reply to post by realism

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[quote}that some people believe wholeheartedly that the world was made in seven days,

This post in reply on the "attack" of Christianity which started this thread.

Bare with me as I am new to your board. However I am not new to the military community and things that surround it. I am not going to direct a response to each on paragraphs in a long rebuttal just my humble opinion as a soldier, sailor, and a person who has some general life experiences in the blood letting that you see today on TV and the internet.

Since the debate of religion seems to always hit any board whether it is scientific, space, what have you. Then I shall point out that even the very people who claim there is no God or creator or such still can't prove their isn't one. Throughout peoples understanding of the world around them many many many theories abound and none are "FACT". Based on calculations of a man interpretation we fathom what we believe is real and not real. But not all calculations can be surmised in human reasoning and thinking. Even theology and scientific investigation can't surmise the true universe about us.

An example would be that some do not believe in a creator but do believe in an ET, yet still can't surmise their existence. Yet we have no direct evidence to prove they exist or "not" or carry on their anal probing like many claim. Now some may believe in a God but do not believe in an ET and some believe in neither. Well scientific calculations alone cannot disprove creation as such as it cannot disprove ET's or prove them.

Evolution is a farce to "me" in my opinions and to me is the very evil that is forced upon mankind and which is used for control of the masses. Just look at all these schools in America who are having a hard time who wish to teach on both creationism and evolution. Who is the one crying about science and facts when facts cannot be ascertained even through investigation of the scientific methods used today those proposed by many early scientist who happen to be Christian.

If you can neither prove that evolution is real then you must accept that creationism should be taught as well in a school curriculum. And I must say that none of you here can prove that evolution exists just as my claim to prove that God does exist. So the situation seems to be a draw in my opinion. But thats at the moment, not in the future.

Man has not evolved in the last 10,000 years and to claim he has is opinion based on nothing. their is no direct proof to mans evolution. We can make scientific guesses but none are concrete enough as "PROOF".

Atheism, Evolution, Marxism, Leninism and other grand poohah regimes are also used as control over the masses. So before one or many claim that Christianity is a farce lest I remind you that your claims are just as bullish as those of Darwin who in my opinion was an ego maniac and decrepit old man like his decedents Hitler, Marx, Stalin and Lenin.


So please don't take offense to this post. It is just an opinion of a Christian. Just not your run of the mill Christian I might add....

But hey this debate and at least not hostile.


And I don't bear a torch unless you wish to call it Illumination......

reply to post by MatrixProphet

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To me, what you just said backs up everything, if one part of the bible is open to interpretation, then isn't it all???

i hope no one takes offence to what i am saying, i respect anyone who follows any religion as their ultimate goal is to be a good person, no matter what they want to call their god, or what book they read, and as i stated before i am NOT an athiest, but i find it hard to take sometimes when people are so closed minded, i have heard a thousand theories on creation and conspiracies, but none so hits home as that of the religions that have been herding people for the last however many years in an attempt to control the masses and keep the elite in luxury.

people are always asking for proof, can you prove god existed, can you prove he didn't? again it frustrates me so much that a religious person could all give their life for a god they have never met and does not know even exists, yet will point blank dismiss any other theory about life and creation, even if that does have proof!!!

I know someone is going to want to probably arm wrestle me over this post, but can i just say, erm, you wouldn't hit a guy with glasses would you!!

reply to post by Astyanax

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I think that there is a thread of a Lie that permeates religion as it does politics. Both have much in common. Both crave membership. Which religion or party do you belong to? Both work out of omission and words unsaid, but implied, and wield power through shame. You are shamed for not being a participant of one (fashionable) party, or voting in a system that does not work, or are not accepted by the hierarchies in your religious group. You do not do it their way, expecting others to climb on board championing their belief or delusions.

As with all groups - religion included, there are an abundance of theories or philosophies that are pronounced as truth, but in reality are mans opinions, being dispensed as doctrine. Give an 'idea' or 'whisper' enough time and enough transference from mouth to mouth, and soon what was a thought, becomes a truth. This is how The Lie becomes natural for man to accept. Man weaves this thread into fabric and then arrives to the conclusion that this fabric is real, beautiful, and has many patterns. It's easier to accept because The Truth is not always beautiful, or pretty. The Lie is easier to manipulate and weave, and can be altered or changed on a whim after all; it never was the truth anyway.

In my experience of religion and in analyzing religions, I have found they all teach; "We have the right view of the scriptures, - you are misinformed!" (You can replace the Bible with any other holy book and you will find the same result with its readers). They all believe they have it correct and are sure in their conviction, otherwise, why would they be part of one?

There are religions that are more "liberal" in their views, but I still question any religion that accepts emblems like the cross and beliefs like; the trinity that have such pagan origins. If a religion incorporates anything that is pagan into its belief system or doctrine without questioning its origins - I believe are duped, or at the very least; lukewarm!

The Bible is filled with examples of living the truth. If anything is questionable, I believe it wise to examine. All Christian faiths claim their origin to the Judeo/Christian 1st century church. The irony is; how can they all be right?

I think this quote is most appropriate:

"Religion is for those scared of hell; Spirituality is for those who have been there!"

reply to post by realism

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{quote]To me, what you just said backs up everything, if one part of the bible is open to interpretation, then isn't it all???

reply to post by MatrixProphet

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I absolutely agree with you, but this is what i think, and please bare in mind that this is just again my humble opinion...

Basically the bible, and many other religious teachings are based on time cycles and astrology, so yes, there is truth in them and answers to questions that have not yet been asked, i am not disputing that or saying that the Bible is rubbish or disrespecting anyone who follows it,

however, i do think that the organised religions of today have become conspiracies, simply there to instill fear, mind control and to very openly divide and conquer the human race

A person who follows Jesus or Alah or whoever is not an idiot or even part of the conspiracy in their own lives, they simply believe in something which they then use to try and be a better person, and there is nothing at all wrong with that, but the people who edit scripture for their own gain, or who make false claims in the name of something that others hold dearly to them, they are the lowest of the low, and unfortunately i really do believe they exist and have been at work for a long time

reply to post by realism

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Thank you. I think in many ways we are on the same page. I am not for religion either, but I believe that there are many hidden clues in the Bible that are just now being explored. It is these nuggets that I am interested in.

We are in a time of exposure & discovery. If we have walls up, we could miss the message. Let's enjoy the journey!

reply to post by MatrixProphet

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phew!! thought i was going to get assasinated there for a moment!!

The bible definately has some extraordinary info in it, i just think it's not as black and white as most believe

Mojo,

You just now realizing this, or have you been holding back, or are you simply trolling?

Harte

PS: Man you're explanations sound just like what Marduk has been saying for years. Except, that is, for a couple of details. You been listening to him??? (God [oops, I mean Nobody] Forbid!)

We make this simple for those who suspect religion and when talking religion we are talking about them all really. Relgion is nothing more than the flip side of the coin with government. Both are by design to control the general population. And the technique of control is also two sides of the same coin when you talk about how you apply fear. Is there really a GOD, sure there is, but it has nothing to do with what we are told.

For those of you that seem to want to debate your faith, ideology, sprituality or beliefs please take this in the way that it is meant, i really hope it doesn't come across as rude.
I will not be answering your posts.
If i wanted to debate your faith versus my belief, or sprituality or whether or not christians or other religious folk in this day and age are good people or bad people i would have started a thread in the Faith, Spirituality & Theology forum.

I didn't.
I posted this thread for discussion of my hypothesis regarding what i believe to be a conspiracy that began thousands of years ago, that is why i posted this in a conspiracy forum.
Check this out at the top of each page,



If you wish to discuss or debate or refute the evidence i presented in my opening post i will be more than happy to listen to any criticism you may have as long as it is constructive.
Any attempt to lead me into discussion of my or your beliefs or faith is going to be a waste of your time because i will simply ignore it. It is not relevant to my OP.
Others may want to take the bait but i won't be. You can accuse me of being a militant atheist all you like, the truth is i am not.
This hypothesis began for me over the past 12 months or so due to my love of history and archaeology and inspiration from a number of people,( yes Harte including You and Marduk, ) it had absolutely nothing to do with my personal view of religion or as an attempt to denigrate or ridicule people of religious leanings. You can either take me at my word on this or not, it will be the last time i explain my position.

Thank you.


Now, some of you have posted relevant questions and repudiation of my evidence, at the earliest opportunity i will attempt to get to them all, but please be patient as there is quite a bit to get to.

I will also be adding a continuation of my OP which will be more in depth in regards to certain elements of my OP with further evidence that i believe is relevant.

Sorry for the longwinded post but i wanted to make sure my position is clear as some people just seem to want to attack the poster rather than the post, and frankly i'm not interested in playing that game.

Cheers.

mojo.