The Greatest Conspiracy Ever Perpetrated: My Interpretation.

I'm okay with the "peace, love, charity and good behavior" part...it's when a particular religion (not restricted to Christianity) states that it is the "One and only TRUTH" that things start to get scary.

I believe this was the gist of the OP:

- Religions were created by myths used to explain natural occrrences

- The religions use these myths to validate their claim that they are the "right" one

- Based on these "validated" claims, people surrender themselves to the religion out of fear of eternal damnation

It's nice that Christianity, and similar religions, produce people who genuinely are of good intent, but it would be nicer if they could do it with out the use of fear or the insistence that all other paths are wrong.

Soylent

Great reference to the Foundation trilogy - one of my favorites! Asimov really knew how to write. You can even see the similarities as the base of scientists at the end of the galaxy and the fledgling church established themselves, grew their power bases, and eventually reached the level where maintaining their positions were their raison d'etre. The only difference was Asimov had Mayors instead of Popes.

Goonga-la-goongla!!!

reply to post by CAP811

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It is only the evangelist side of Christianity which proclaims that it is the one true path and all those who dont believe in jesus are doomed to burn in hell etc etc rapture BS blah blah...

True Christianity respects all paths (or so I was taught by the reverends at my school).

I found this thread really funny, and very ironic. With all the anti estabishment conspiracies posted. With obvious Christian
sources It was no surprise that such a sweeping attack on religion,
(being a grand conspiracy) would eventually make it's appearance.
At best I would call this an attempt at misdirection, red herring
or obscurafacation. From the real conspiracies. It is also a blatant
"tit for tat", childish tantrum. Also I would label it flame baiting at
is worst.
Next time try something with some real depth. Not just a bunch of warn out, over used half truths, and straw man criticisms. IF you want anyone
to take you seriously. Also make sure it isn't a conspiracy that has been
going on since the beginning of time. That has slipped by every body in
history. Until you just now discovered it.

reply to post by 44soulslayer

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Cool...I've met those kinds of Christians and I agree, they are the true ones.

Hrm,
Well, history is full of accounts of people being branded heretics or similar for threatening a churches power base. Even priests (catholicism) being denied marriage rights due to the church losing land due to inheritance laws. Many church leaders run around with 'bling' from televangelists driving a 'Benz 'for the lord'. To the deep deep coffers of churches..

So far we have: Money, Political Power and Property (more than simply money as it also allows farming land and water rights etc.)-generally the three core aspects of items people conspire to attain or keep.

As for 'slipping by everybody in history' well.. theres a reason Catholicism was cast out of England by kings and why church leaders are regarded with suspicion by locations when they setup shop.

Some historical quotes that are seem applicable:

"If we look back into history for the character of the present sects in Christianity, we shall find few that have not in their turns been persecutors, and complainers of persecution. The primitive Christians thought persecution extremely wrong in the Pagans, but practiced it on one another. The first Protestants of the Church of England blamed persecution in the Romish Church, but practiced it upon the Puritans. They found it wrong in Bishops, but fell into the practice themselves both there (England) and in New England."--- Benjamin Franklin

Which funny enough, still continues unabated today, as observed in the anti-atheist threads... But, I digress.

I am wondering, did you actually read the OP? If so, please explain how it is a "childish tantrum" also, "Not just a bunch of warn out, over used half truths, and straw man criticisms." That one is just baffling.

Please elaborate.

reply to post by Howie47

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What's the irony? That someone talked about a real -- and in fact widely acknowledged -- conspiracy instead of all the garbage about aliens, Planet X, free energy suppression and how anyone but Islamic fanatics perpetrated 9/11? I suppose that is ironic in its way, but not in the way you mean.

44soulslayer: you may examine the witness.

I rarely pipe up on the Religion/Origin threads but I have some input here.

Do you, as in YOU anonymous ATS member (or Guest) reading this post ... have a true self-awareness of right and wrong? In other words ... do you truly feel bad after cutting someone off on the highway? Does helping others make you feel good? Do you have an innate sense of "this is good yay!" and "oh crap, this is bad"?

Then I hate to say it - it doesn't matter if you like the OP's interpretation, current Catholic teachings, or literal word for word translation of the bible.

YOU are on an even footing with people of ALL religions.

Without stepping on too much of a soapbox here (I will possibly start my own thread on this) ... it is my belief that everyone has inherent knowledge of what it takes to be a good person, and that MOST people "follow their gut" regardless of what they "practice." That's one thing I never understood about the anti-religion camp - if you take the Bible/Quaran/Manifesto XYZ merely as a story, there's STILL some damn good morals in there. And the religious camps - if a person follows all the morals and does every thing right that you are supposed to follow and do in your religion, won't he/she too achieve the same "end result"?

Back on track, this is more or less a parallel to the OP's post. I can see mojo's interpretation as being spot on. You can call him God, Allah, angel on your shoulder, inner conscience whatever. It is the morals and inward sense of right and wrong that I believe those people truly passed on as they left the mountains for the valleys. As always, you will have people who are varying degrees of "corrupt" who will put their spin on things and twist ideas for their own gain. Are these people who are ignoring their inner self? Do these people really not know right from wrong (maybe less "aware" of moralities)? Or is their inner self just telling them that what they do is right???

That's what I think we shoud focus on finding out. What makes the bad apples tick. I don't know what you'd call it. Fiverzism. Done. Now I just need to jump up and down on Oprah's couch to get some media attention and I'm good to go (j/k Scientologists of the board)

Seriously though, sorry for the hijack - brilliant post mojo. One that finally got those ideas of mine out into the open.

reply to post by Fiverz

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Instead of giving a direct response to the idea that religion is the source of telling right from wrong.. I would like to direct you to the works of Plato and Hume. They do a far better job at it then I ever could.

You got that right it is getting real old and that is besides the almost too many to count mistakes and logical fallacy he has in this fairytale. The OP should have been moved to the essay books. I especially like how people use the "time" of Christs existence saying it copied pagan BS when it is the otherway around in most cases the Old testament predicts such pagan religions traditions etc,. not to mention the Christ .

It's like so much of the garbage out their where they pick on Christianity but if Christianity wasn't picked on like it is ,,

It wouldn't have any influence.

much less any credibility

- Con

I agree Astyanax,, it is no differen't then the well knownm widely accepted conspiracy of Neo Atheist extremists using the religion of evolution to overthrow the religious conspiracy without doing it by force.

While some may think it is their intellect that makes this bloodless,, I submit it is the axiom of the Atheist aversion to

Foxholes

- Con

Cute,, but I don't think there could BE TOO many anti-atheist threads when Atheism applied to be people who just didn't believe it was one thing but the new actively disbelieving Atheist has turned their un belief into a religion of active disbelief the anti Christian extremists who have stolen the good name of Atheist has created ten anti Christian threads to every one where they are the topic.

I challenge anyone to Google neo Atheism and tell me the sites you see Google pull up where they don't have an obsession with hating Christians, would be the rare exception rather then the rule.


- Con

Hi. Lots of time and effort has gone into your thread so well done.

However, I’m just curious as to why you suppose that these ‘rehashed tales from superstitious tribesman’ that been passed down for millennia have held up for so long?
No matter which place or culture you visit on Earth, people have being worshipping a God or Gods and still do today. There wouldn't be any truth as to what may have transpired many years ago would there? I mean, it is not as if our ancient ancestors were exactly stupid otherwise they could never have achieved some of the amazing engineering feats and architecture that still baffles many scientists today. Not to mention some of the artwork and artifacts from totally different parts of the world that appear to have some incredibly common similarities.

reply to post by Conspiriology...

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Yes, well, about that: I was thinking the other day how, before there were atheists, the whole world was one vast foxhole. One of the many achievements of the Greatest Conspiracy Ever Perpetrated.

Climb out of your foxhole and took a look around. You may see things a little more clearly -- and charitably.

I never said religion wasn't part of the conspiracies. That isn't equal
too, all religion being a conspiracy! Unless your not using the generally
excepted definition of, religion.

Well it's not entirely my theory, i have taken a lot from different sources to match what i believe happened.
Sure, no intelligent christian will believe the fables described in the bible are an accurate representation now. But it is too late now, the lie is firmly entrenched because of the deliberate falsehoods perpetrated over 2000 years ago, not so that the "uneducated peasants" could understand them but so that the upper echelons of the church could control them. But as i stated clearly in the thread title, that is entirely my interpretation.



*sigh* No where in my OP have i at anytime accused true christians or believers of not promoting "peace, love, charity and good behaviour".
My post was not about my atheism, or denigrating anyones beliefs, it was about the original conspiracy of a few elite elders/priests/shamen call them what you will, who saw an opportunity to further enhance their standing among the populace and to increase their wealth and power through the deliberate use of superstition and fear and plagiarism of older myths and religions.

@ Solent Green Is People, I have read some of the Foundation series and some of Asimov's other works. A truly great author and thinker. Some of his non-fiction work is equally as brilliant as his sci fi. Thanks.




I haven't had a chance to check it out yet but i will and i'll let you know what i think via u2u if you like.




Mostly that was my aim, as well as postulating that it was done deliberately by an elite section of the populace at that time to enhance and profit from their standing in the community, hence the conspiracy angle.




Excellent.



Childish tantrum over what. Flame baiting. Now you've made me laugh, Thats funny and ironic too, are we even now.
The language and phrasing you have just used in your post is certainly more aggressive than any other poster in this thread so far......



Honestly, i didn't care whether anyone would take me seriously or not. It was something that has been rattling around in my head for awhile now.
Why shouldn't i use a conspiracy that in your words "has been going on since the beginning of time". Wouldn't that make it the "Greatest Conspiracy of All Time".
I don't claim to have discovered it, please point out where in my post that i have.
I wonder if some people ever read past the first few lines, i have stated numerous times that this is only "My Interpretation" of how i believe events unfolded thousands of years ago.

reply to post by Fiverz

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Thanks Fiverz.



Ahh, yes my story may very well be a fairytale. Think that would upset me did you.
The religious practices and rites of Catalhoyuk and Gobelki Tepe predate your old testament by a few thousand years.
But i wont suggest you need to go back to the essay books, that would just be rude and not contributing to the discussion.




Thanks, if i haven't answered your post specifically yet it's probably either:
(a) because i agree with what you've written, or
(b) i'm busy and i will get to it asap, or
(c) i don't wish to engage in petty bickering and name calling.

Thanks mojo












[edit on 26/3/08 by mojo4sale]

reply to post by mojo4sale

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I really enjoyed your creativity and research. We do not all have to agree on every point to achieve unity of thought. The point is; to question everything! I personally believe that Jah would be delighted to have his creation not be gullible.



Haven't we all been lemmings long enough?

"Real knowledge is to know the extent of one's ignorance." - Confucius

reply to post by MatrixProphet

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thank you for your post.

I certainly don't expect everyone to agree with every point or any point for that matter, and i admit to the possibility of flaws in my hypothesis. Grudgingly.
But it will hopefully generate some positive discussion.
What i really enjoy though is a balanced thoughtful reply as you have given even though our beliefs are probably polar opposites.

Starred your post because you have given me a smile to start my day.

cheers mojo.

Great thread mojo, I am fully feeling your vibe.
It is human nature..... scrap that, it is nature to look out for oneself. Fight or flight. It is also natural to care for those around you. Sadly, the righteous and empathetic leader will almost always be overthrown by the deviant and manipulative megalomaniac(s).
It pains me to see so many sheeple still meandering around, putting their time, energy and money towards a blind faith.
It's evolution baby! Darwin blew this adam and eve crap out of the garden long ago. I believe in a higher being or higher something. This universe is too incredible to be an accident.
IMO, this higher being made it possible for this universe to exist (big bang) and since then everything has been on freestyle mode. Galaxies, comets, planets, people, are all doing what they do. There is no such thing as fate, karma or turning wine into water.
Science is the bible, your body is your temple. Live your life to the fullest while we still live in a free world.

Again great post mojo keep them coming, peace

THE ORIGINS OF JUDEO-CHRISTIANITY

If you are going to be speaking of the 'Judeo-Christian Religion' then first of all, it is much older than 2,000 years old. 'Abrahamic Faiths' might have been a better term to encompass Judaism, Christianity, and Islam. However, it looks like you want to focus on Judaism and Christianity so we'll leave out Islam for now.

Christianity is only 2,000 years old. Judaism is much older. Second, Christianity is only a fulfillment of Judaism and did not start out as its own faith but instead splintered off into another faith when the Jews did not accept the Messiah.

In the beginning we were even called Jews. Even in the Bible we are referred to as 'Jews' with the exception of a few times in Acts where it documents the first use of the term 'Christian' in Antioch. All Christianity really is, is the acceptance of the Judaic Messiah with the fulfillment of the Messianic prophecies through Jesus Christ. I'm harping on this point because it will be important in just a minute.

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CONTROLLING RELIGIONS

Being under the OT Law, I can see how Orthodox Judaism could be considered a form of control by an outsider if they do not understand the spiritual principles. I can even agree with the opinions of those who believe certain sects of Christianity, Catholicism for example, could also be considered a controlling establishment. However, the Christian faith is completely unable to control anyone. But I'm not using word games like 'Guns don't kill people. People kill people.' I'm saying our actual faith is very liberating.

At it's core, Christianity is not a religion but a spiritual movement that was later harnessed by a corrupt government, Rome. Thanks to the Protestant Reformation we were able to return to our roots. Our roots of grace through faith. No human being can control someone when their spirituality consists of a one-on-one relationship with their God. Priests, pastors, clergy, spouses, the church, or organizations- none can come in between. Ever wonder why it was illegal for so long for the common man to own a Bible? Because they would have known the movement Jesus started was not what they were being spoon fed. It's very sad how a bunch of unscrupulous madmen hijacked our history and gives our faith a bad name.

Church attendance, works and good deeds, tithing, etc. is not required for salvation. Have you ever seen Christians get criticized by accusing them of being able to do whatever they want because 'they're saved?' Ok, then how is that controlling? It's not a matter of paying penance or earning anything. If the founders of the faith meant to control those who truly knew their Bible then they did a rotten job. Christianity is not about control and this cannot be stressed enough. It's a spiritual relationship with our God. This is all in the Bible so I'll spare you the quotes or trying to correct whatever disinformation you have received.

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PROPHETS

Prophets that got tons and tons of very specific things correct- even things we can see with our own eyes being fulfilled today. Not to mention if you were a false prophet you were in deep trouble. True prophets were listened to and rightfully heeded. False prophets were scorned... or worse. Why? So unscrupulous prophets couldn't control or manipulate anyone or anything. We were given very rigorous testing procedures to judge a prophet. This was a protective measure for our sake so they could not manipulate or deceive us. What was the test? 100% accuracy every single time. Not to mention the fact that if their far-off prophecies were to be accepted they would have to prove themselves by making near-future prophecies.

_________________________________________________________________

You will need to expound on this. It looks like you're trying to say the Genesis account was copied from older myths around time of Jesus' life. However, this is so obviously untrue that I will give you the benefit of a doubt and allow you to clarify before continuing.

_________________________________________________________________

That's pretty much what this thread is looking like to me.

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SIMILARITIES BETWEEN BIBLICAL STORIES AND SUMERIAN MYTHOLOGY

Let's not stop there. Let's also mention the stories all over the world that speak of a global flood, a paradise, a serpent/dragon, giants, etc. It gets far more interesting. How could these people from all over the world even from isolated islands to the deepest part of the jungles have such similar myths?

Common origins? It's highly possible. Being that the Sumerian account was the closest geographically, it doesn't surprise me at all to see it is the most similar to the Jewish accounts and, from a Christian conservative's perspective, the least adulterated from the truth. Whereas the flood myths in China, the Americas, or the Pacific Islands remain similar but get even more loose in terms of correlations.

Back to why I war harping about the 2,000 year history and how it actually goes back much, much further: If the Genesis account is accurate, then everything is already easily explained.

The Mosaic law, by conservatives, is believed to have originated around 1400 B.C. The Abrahamic covenant is even older. The covenant with Noah is even older than that. The Adamic covenant is the oldest.

So do these accounts stem from common origins? Is it all a conspiracy that traces back to Egypt or Babylon? Did the Jews pass on the true account orally before writing it down? Did the Sumerian accounts actually stem from the true accounts of what really happened but were distorted? Maybe.

It's up to the reader to decide.

[edit on 3/26/2008 by AshleyD]

reply to post by mojo4sale

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I love your signature!



I have a strong belief that there has been a Game going on in heavenly congress and part of the game is to expose all lies. I used to be religious. I am a spiritual person now and look at things in an entirely different light. "The Light Grew Brighter" after I left religion!

Thank you for your star!