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Jewish Beliefs Derived from Egyptians?

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posted on Mar, 24 2008 @ 03:12 PM
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I read something somewhere that alluded to the fact that the early old testamant or the torah which contains the history of the isrealites/hebrews, was actually a conversion of existing ancient egyptian historical accounts.

One can definately see that Moses had a heavy influence on the torah and he lived as egyptian royalty for many years. And there is no way to verify his non-egyption lineage.

What sort of information is out there to corroborate this connection? I am interested in some good information on this topic for my own research.

Also, if any of you have any non-faith-based info or comments that would be greatly appreciated.

[edit on 3/25/2008 by Choronzon]




posted on Mar, 24 2008 @ 03:28 PM
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the ancient Hebrews were a nomadic group who migrated from Canaan to Egypt. They were enslaved by the Pharoah, presumably for their beliefs.

some interesting history

www.historyguide.org...



posted on Mar, 24 2008 @ 03:31 PM
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Quoteing from a student of Washington State University:


When the Egyptians reasserted dominance over Egypt at the start of the New Kingdom, they actively expelled as many foreigners as they could. Life got fairly harsh for these foreigners, who were called "habiru," which was applied to landless aliens (taken from the word, "apiru," or foreigner). Is this where the Hebrews got their name? It's a hotly contested issue.


The Hebrews...

Actually when reading through her account, it appears as though the conspiracy begins with the validation of Moses' life. Especially since NONE of the egyptian plagues or Moses divine intervention over the egyptians are at all recorded by the egyptians. Almost as if they were completely unaware it, if it did in fact occur.

[edit on 3/24/2008 by Choronzon]



posted on Mar, 24 2008 @ 03:36 PM
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Most middle eastern religions have similar structures to their mythologies and practices.

It is known from anthropological evidence that most of Exodus was more legend then truth, being that the Jews did not build the pyramids, and records among the Egyptians of Moses are non-existent. There is evidence of a Jewish community that lived in upper Egypt around that time, who were forced to leave over an issue of the Hebrew practice of sacrificing goats, which were sacred to Isis and therefor a source of tension between Egyptians and Jews. Other than that, a simple genetic test would show whether the two groups share a common ancestry, of which I know none.



posted on Mar, 24 2008 @ 03:43 PM
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It would seem that if one were to believe that the Exodus story as myth, that digging deeper may reveal that the Moses and the story of Exodus maybe rehashes of other pre-existing folk-lore.

This site has a good bit of info, on the Exodus story as Myth:

Exploring the Exodus Myth


The influences do not stop in Egypt, however, since the Exodus also has striking similarities with the Indian Mahabarata [kg]. Moses himself has been equated with various of the Egyptian Pharoes and (like Jesus) with the mythical Osiris [mo].

Moreover, the historical evidence shows that the Jewish people did not become monotheistic until around 800 BC [jt]. It would appear that the "story" of Exodus then became incorporated into the Jewish canon based on older verbal traditions.



posted on Mar, 24 2008 @ 03:50 PM
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I am obviously biased, however will TRY to provide neutral information for you to consider:
Ancient historians:
In what i know of sources using (except Apion) Manetho (Egyptian ancient historian) he (or his followers) considered Jews/Hebrews to be Hyksos. Whether it is true or not, it is probably that their agreed that Hebrews were not native to Egypt.
Am not aware of Greek historians who talk about origin of Hebrews.
Versions of Jewish historians (from book of kings to writings by Josephus Flavius) also do not support Egyptian origin of Jews/Hebrews
Roman historian Strabo supported your version,by saying he is based this on most credited report (Apion?).
Roman historian Tacitus, living later, presents several versions - Ethiopia,Assyria,Crete,Egypt as possible origin.
So this gives no clear answer. Anyway - in Torah/Old Testament it is clearly stated that together with Jews a lot of other people (including Egyptians) followed.

Culture/Religion:
The Hebrew language/writings/alphabet shows no to little resemblance to Egyptian one. More Phoenician/Semitic in origin. Religion is and was different, however monotheistic ideas appeared in Egypt also.
Architecture was not Egyptian , names, except Moshe are not Egyptian.
So it is inconclusive. However i would like to ask you - if Hebrew were of Egyptian origin - why hiding it? In ancient world everybody searched for noble ancestors/heritage. (Rome



posted on Mar, 24 2008 @ 03:55 PM
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reply to post by Choronzon
 


About plagues - not the time line that modern historians will put exodus in, but conditions described are pretty similar: Ipuwer papyrus.
en.wikipedia.org...
Note: I read it for the first time in Velikovsky book - he is not considered reliable source at all today. But it puts him well into ATS, just because of that...



posted on Mar, 24 2008 @ 06:14 PM
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ZeroKnowledge is correct with this summary



Originally posted by ZeroKnowledge
In what i know of sources using (except Apion) Manetho (Egyptian ancient historian) he (or his followers) considered Jews/Hebrews to be Hyksos. Whether it is true or not, it is probably that their agreed that Hebrews were not native to Egypt.


They definately have their origins in the Middle East rather than in Africa-Egypt. The language family is completely different, as is the culture and the beliefs.


Am not aware of Greek historians who talk about origin of Hebrews.


The ancient Greeks apparently had no interest in the Hebrews -- the Hebrews didn't start any important wars with them and didn't engage in much important trade with them.


Versions of Jewish historians (from book of kings to writings by Josephus Flavius) also do not support Egyptian origin of Jews/Hebrews
Roman historian Strabo supported your version,by saying he is based this on most credited report (Apion?).


To add onto this, the Jewish historians don't mention Egypt with any great regard. The areas that the Jews hold sacred do not include any territories in or near the area of Egypt, but are rather in the area of the Fertile Crescent.


The Hebrew language/writings/alphabet shows no to little resemblance to Egyptian one. More Phoenician/Semitic in origin.

Scholars agree that the Hebrew alphabet derives in part from the Phoenecian alphabet rather than hieroglyphics. Even the sounds and names are rather different.


Religion is and was different, however monotheistic ideas appeared in Egypt also.

Interestingly enough, there have been recent finds that indicate the oldest form of Yahweh worship was not of a single god, but of a god and his consort: www.bib-arch.org...

...which gives an interesting twist to the "thou shalt have no other gods before me" commandment and the plural pronoun being used for "god" in some passages of the Bible.

The monotheism in Egypt appears to be something done by the pharaoh only. It was unpopular (people kept their household gods during his reign) and he built a brand new city in the desert to be his capital city. There are some very controversial findings here indicating that he worked his people so hard to build the city that many of them died. As soon as he died, everyone resumed worship of their gods.

I do have to make a correction here -- "Moshe" is not an Egyptian name.
"Thutmos" means "Thoth is born" and has nothing to do with "moshe" (you can clearly see it in the cartouche that spells this name; the first sign is that of the ibis, which represents Thoth.) He actually has five names... Thutmose is only the nomen.
en.wikipedia.org...

"Moshe" means "taken from the water" (as Moses' basket was taken from the water as a baby.) The ancients gave their children names that reflected an aspect of their culture, so the hero Moses has a name that reflects the legend of his origins.



posted on Mar, 24 2008 @ 06:16 PM
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I should also point out that the genetic haplotype studies show that the Jews are not a subpopulation of the Egyptians... and vice-versa. Although they moved into areas around the Middle East, they kept to themselves and did not intermarry or share the culture with the other groups:
www.aish.com...



posted on Mar, 24 2008 @ 06:28 PM
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It's generally understood that Abraham, originally Abram, the father of the Hebrew people, was born in the city of Ur in Mesopotamia. That's not exactly Egypt.

Jesus, although possibly born in Bethlehem, was only there because his human parents were traveling back to their home for the Census, and they returned to Egypt ostensibly to flee Herod's Slaughter of the Innocents, but more likely just to go back home. Jesus himself, then, was essentially Egyptian of Jewish parents.

Of course, during their long stay in Egypt, it's not ridiculous to think that the two cultures mixed in a variety of ways. So when God sent the killing fog to kill the firstborn of Egypt in preparation for the Exodus, it was necessary for the Hebrews to take active precautions, since although God was apparently powerful enough to create the fog, he lacked the ability to sort out exactly who were the good guys and who were the bad guys. Too much hanky-panky going on to tell who was firstborn of who.



posted on Mar, 24 2008 @ 06:51 PM
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Akhenaten plays an interesting role in all this talk of the Jewish race being acvtually of Egyptian bloodline. The fact that monotheism began with his rule and eventually the Judaic Faith based itself on this unique single "God" of worship could indicate they were kicked out of Egypt after Akhenaten died.

That the PreistHood were particualrly ticked off with their loss of power and thus to regain it they persecuted/excommunicated all of Akhenaten's followers and hence the legend of the "Exodus" began is possible.

More possible than the alledged miracles that acompany the official story of parting sea's and selective fogs of death.



posted on Mar, 24 2008 @ 08:34 PM
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I apologize, I think my OP and subsequent articles may have been confusing.

I'm not really interested in the bloodlines so to speak, but that their religious rituals and beliefs may have derived from egyptian theology at the time. Namely the torah itself.



posted on Mar, 24 2008 @ 10:56 PM
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Originally posted by Choronzon
I apologize, I think my OP and subsequent articles may have been confusing.

I'm not really interested in the bloodlines so to speak, but that their religious rituals and beliefs may have derived from egyptian theology at the time. Namely the torah itself.


Well mate your Topic doesn't allude to that at all, I suspect you are pulling back for the fear of being labelled an "Anti-Semite". This very thing is what stymies fair and honest debate on this board...it seems all topics are fair game unless they have even the slightest hint of not painting the Jewish History in a good light.



posted on Mar, 25 2008 @ 12:40 AM
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Please reread the OP, I never mentioned blood lines, and no I am not in fear of being labeled anything. Not the least of which being that labels are a tool for the ignorant.

Again reading my OP , my original intentions are as stated. Not bloodlines but the history of the jewish people. And now elaborating on that by specifying their rituals and beliefs.

[edit on 3/25/2008 by Choronzon]



posted on Mar, 25 2008 @ 03:31 AM
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reply to post by Choronzon
 


Well change your Topic mate because it quite clearly is asking whether the Ancient Jews are Egyptian ok no mistaking what your topic is asking.



posted on Mar, 25 2008 @ 08:25 AM
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No problem....thanks for the suggestion.



posted on Mar, 25 2008 @ 10:10 AM
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Originally posted by Choronzon
I apologize, I think my OP and subsequent articles may have been confusing.

I'm not really interested in the bloodlines so to speak, but that their religious rituals and beliefs may have derived from egyptian theology at the time. Namely the torah itself.


The Torah is nothing like Egyptian religious beliefs. The moral codes (617 Commandments for the Jews) are nothing like any of the Egyptian religious strictures, and the Egyptian belief in the subdivisions of the soul and their fate does not match any Jewish belief no matter how you bend it.

The Jews, incidentally, did not believe in an afterlife. I'm in a rush, but if you have specific points I can belabor them later this evening.



posted on Mar, 25 2008 @ 10:14 AM
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Originally posted by mazzroth
Akhenaten plays an interesting role in all this talk of the Jewish race being acvtually of Egyptian bloodline. The fact that monotheism began with his rule and eventually the Judaic Faith based itself on this unique single "God" of worship could indicate they were kicked out of Egypt after Akhenaten died.


I'm not sure it began with him. He was the first in Egypt to declare one of the gods supreme and "dethrone" the others. I'll have to check.


That the PreistHood were particualrly ticked off with their loss of power and thus to regain it they persecuted/excommunicated all of Akhenaten's followers and hence the legend of the "Exodus" began is possible.


Ahkenaten built a royal city at Amara, which is where he and his priests and workers lived. The rest of the population never "bought into" this "worship of one god" and there was no expulsion of anyone after his death, according to records.

Plus, there's almost no record of the Jews being in Egypt. There are a few inscriptions from scholars who worked as scribes, but no indications of any sizeable population.



posted on Mar, 25 2008 @ 10:16 AM
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Originally posted by Byrd
I'm in a rush, but if you have specific points I can belabor them later this evening.

Well that is the whole point, I had heard claims before, but could not find any supporting evidence. That is precisely what I was looking for.



posted on Mar, 25 2008 @ 10:19 AM
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I see a great many things being offered "authoritatively" on this thread that do not bear up under recent scholarship. I suggest a thorough reading of the work of the Old Testament theologian Margaret Barker to understand the difference between the religion of the First Temple and the religion of the Deuteronomists. It helps one understand what the faith of the Hebrews was as distinct from what is found in current rabbinical Judaism. It also helps to understand just what the reform of the Deuteronomists was all about and how Moses became central to their God-story when he was not central to the faith of the First Temple.



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