Otis Moss III - Obama's New Pastor

Originally posted by jsobecky
My point was that when he said gd America, he wasn't only referring to the gov't.

Originally posted by jsobeckyThey are segregated, philosophically, regardless of skin color.

You (and FF) seem to know a lot about this situation, about this man and his church. I take it you've attended the church, then? Talked to the white members? They told you that they want segregation? You know the pastor personally? You know him well enough to know what he's referring to when he makes a comment?

I'm sorry, these are all just your assumptions and opinions based on ... really nothing that I can tell.

This thread is supposed to be about the NEW pastor, and I don't know anything about him, so I'll stop talking about the OLD pastor. It's good to "see" you both again.

[edit on 29-3-2008 by Benevolent Heretic]

reply to post by Benevolent Heretic

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
You (and FF) seem to know a lot about this situation, about this man and his church. I take it you've attended the church, then? Talked to the white members? They told you that they want segregation? You know the pastor personally? You know him well enough to know what he's referring to when he makes a comment?

I'm sorry, these are all just your assumptions and opinions based on ... really nothing that I can tell.

Well, young lady, maybe if you'd attend services once in a while you'd know what I mean!

Just kidding, of course.

It's been impossible to watch the news or listen to the radio without being inundated with this topic for the past week or two. He's a racist, alright. And I've never known a racist that wasn't a segregationist also.

Originally posted by semperfortis
I'm saying he is SCUM to do it...

... and you're certainly entitled to feel that way... but is he lying? (read further for an excerpt)

Originally posted by FlyersFan
What is funny is that whenever a politician gets caught with his pants down he (or she) says 'time to move on and discuss the issues'.

No, I said what I meant: we've been talking about this for two weeks (and counting...). When's the right time to bring up... um... the economy... or the war...or the general state of decay in the infrastructure of this country? Those are my concerns. We should be doing exactly what you said, vetting the candidates. We're not. We're vetting one candidate's preacher.

He did NOT say 'god damn the american government'. he yelled 'god damn america'.

FF, if I prove to you that you are wrong, will you admit your error?

“And the United States of America government, when it came to treating her citizens of Indian descent, she failed. She put them on reservations.”

“When it came to putting her citizens of Japanese descent fairly, she failed. She put them in interment prison camps.”

“When it came to putting the citizens of African descent fairly, America failed. She put them in chains. The government put them on slave quarters. Put them on auction blocks. Put them in cotton fields. Put them in inferior schools. Put them in substandard housing. Put them scientific experiments. Put them in the lower paying jobs. Put them outside the equal protection of the law. Kept them out of their racist bastions of higher education, and locked them into positions of hopelessness and helplessness.”

“The government gives them the drugs, builds bigger prisons, passes a three strike law and then wants us to sing God Bless America. Naw, naw, naw. Not God Bless America. God Damn America! That’s in the Bible. For killing innocent people. God Damn America for treating us citizens as less than human. God Damn America as long as she tries to act like she is God and she is Supreme.”
Anderson Cooper 360: Blog Archive- The full story behind Wright’s “God Damn America” sermon

Please note that he uses the feminine, singular, personal pronoun throughout, a common usage when speaking of a nation. Never once does he say "white people" or "they". In fact, upon further reflection, he pretty much repeated my own reasoning for reparations to the descendants of slaves in this thread-- Payment for Services Rendered-- although he chose a harsher tone than I would take.

Do you consider me "anti-American"? Like, really?

He has also made racial slurs against everyone (who isn't black) in this country.

When, and where, might I ask?

True pastors are supposed to...

I believe that after such a long time preaching and fighting and preaching and marching, many black religious leaders who who believe in 'liberation theology', as it's called, are quite beyond the point of asking nicely for justice from their God (or Allah). Their parishioners, in the Christian parlance, are being persecuted. Why shouldn't they beg, and plead, and make their case in their place of worship? Jews and other persecuted faiths never come under this kind of fire for doing the same exact thing.

Are black people only "allowed" to pray for equality in the privacy of their homes?


ps, hey BH!

reply to post by HarlemHottie

He has also made racial slurs against everyone (who isn't black) in this country.

Originally posted by HarlemHottie
When, and where, might I ask?

www.cnsnews.com.../politics/archive/200803/pol20080326a.html

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
This thread is supposed to be about the NEW pastor,

Yep. Kinda got off topic a bit, eh? I wanted it to be on the NEW fella'.

Originally posted by HarlemHottie
When's the right time to bring up... um... the economy... or the war...or the general state of decay in the infrastructure of this country?

America is capable of discussing it all. When I watch the TV I see it all being discussed. Well .. except the decay of infrastructure. The lack of discussion of that ticks me off. But the war and the economy are definately being discussed. CNN, MSMBC, FOX ... its' all there.

Obama claiming not to know what his mentor/advisor of 20+ years was doing IS important to be vetted. It goes to his credibility. It goes to his ability to make good decisions about who to have advising him.

We're vetting one candidate's preacher.

We are vetting all the candidates. Right now Hillary and Obama are giving the press plenty more fodder than McCain. (I'm sure that'll change once the dems pick a nominee)

No we are not 'vetting the preacher' - we are vetting the candidate and his mentor/advisor who he has had for 20+ years. The relationship is being vetted. The fact that this anti-american racist mentors and advises Obama is being vetted. The fact that Obama claims not to have known anything about it and wasn't aware that it was going on for the past 20 years is being vetted. Either Obama is incredibly unaware of what's going on around him OR he lied. THAT is being vetted.

FF, if I prove to you that you are wrong, will you admit your error?

Sure I would. But you just proved it with the transcript. He yelled "god damn america". That's what he said.

although he chose a harsher tone than I would take.

THAT"s an understatement!

many black religious leaders who who believe in 'liberation theology', as it's called, are quite beyond the point of asking nicely for justice from their God (or Allah).

I don't understand (I'm not being a wise-acre .. seriously .. I don't understand) .. are you saying that they don't believe in God anymore so they are taking it upon themselves to 'liberate' themselves?

Liberate from what? Michelle Obama makes $300,000 a year. Obama had a MUCH more affluant upbringing than I did.

'Liberation Theology'??
I see no theology in calling Italians 'garlic noses'.
I see no theology in saying Bill Clinton 'rode us dirty'.
I see no theology in posting the Hamas terrorist manifesto on the church website.
I see no theology in yelling 'God Damn America'.
I see no theology in repeatedly putting down white people and blaming them for all the worlds problems (no self responsibility)
etc etc

It's all poltiical and based upon race. Theology means the study of God or at least something religious .. none of that is there. So I guess I dont' understand how this stuff can be called 'theology'. It's political and based upon race. And it just sounds like a black version of the KKK to me. Sorry - but that's what it looks like.

beyond asking nicely for justice from their God

THAT I understand. A loss of faith because God doesn't bow down to their demands. But that's a subject for another thread ... probably in the BTS religion forum. I should start one - but spring break is over and I go back to work tomorrow.

Why shouldn't they beg, and plead, and make their case in their place of worship?

- beg and plead for what?
- I thought they were 'beyond asking nicely'?
- they aren't begging and pleading .. they are yelling and screaming anti-white, anti-jewish and anti-american isms.

Jews and other persecuted faiths never come under this kind of fire for doing the same exact thing.

Christianity isn't a persecuted faith in America. So that 'church' can't say it's faith is persecuted if it claims to be Christian.

Do other people running for POTUS attend 'church' in which they give awards to idiots like Farrakah? If so .. it will come out in vetting.

Are black people only "allowed" to pray for equality in the privacy of their homes?

I don't see any praying going on. Just a bunch of racist and political yelling. I see a bunch of jumping up and down and whooping and hollering as well. I see no heads bowed .. no adoration of God .. no prayers being raised to Him ...

This was in a public church, not in the privacy of their homes. Either way - in a public church or in their homes .. it doesnt' look like praying. They can do what they want of course .. but they shouldn't get upset when people see it and call it what it is.

The point is - for Obama to deny that he knew any of it was going on ... that's not believable.




[edit on 3/30/2008 by FlyersFan]

Originally posted by FlyersFan

FF, if I prove to you that you are wrong, will you admit your error?

Sure I would. But you just proved it with the transcript. He yelled "god damn america". That's what he said.

With this, you've made it clear, to me, at least, that you're beyond reason when it comes to this topic.

You said, "He did NOT say 'god damn the american government'. he yelled 'god damn america'," thereby basing a major part of your argument on a faulty premise.

Sermons, like lectures, are not intended to be ingested in soundbytes. Both types of monologue require the unbroken attention of the audience, which is expected a) to speak the language, and b) to comprehend the totality of a series of utterances.

But you know this.

I spent quite some time locating the exact quote for you, to prove your error, yet you insist on parroting a falsehood rooted in the disingenuous isolation of a single utterance. I take it personally because you've wasted my time.

You raise some interesting points, and I would love to continue the debate, but I cannot have this conversation if you force me to play this game with you.



The views expressed in this post are the personal opinions of HarlemHottie and in no way reflect the views of AbovePolitics.com, or her parent company, AboveTopSecret.com, or TAN.

HH,

I'm sorry but I have read, studied and listened to his sermon countless times now, and I don't "see" your "government" reference either...

An avid Church goer, I know what you are referencing, but as hard as I have looked and listened, it appears to me that he indeed said very simply "G. D. America" and it was his intention to purvey that message....

Semper

Originally posted by HarlemHottie
you're beyond reason when it comes to this topic.

... because you failed to make your point I'm 'beyond reason'.
Interesting attitude you have.

you insist on parroting a falsehood rooted in the disingenuous isolation of a single utterance.

That makes for a nice soundbite .. but ...

- I made sure I was very polite. Too bad now you cant' say the same.
- His rants weren't 'single utterances.
- He yelled 'god damn america'. That's exactly what he said. You showed it.
- Falsehood? No. It's the truth.
- Disingenuous? No. I read what you posted.
- Showing the facts is not 'parroting'.
- Taken as a whole - everything he preached and what posted on the church website, including going out of his way to award Farrakhan for bravely speaking 'truths', ... it all says 'god damn america'. or perhaps 'god damn what america' was really his motivation.

I take it personally

1 - that's YOUR problem.
2 - I don't care.
3 - perhaps I should take it personally that you fail to condemn the racist pig - condemn him for his racial slurs. - condemn him for giving awards to anti-white,anti-jew, anti-truth farrakhan - condemn him for promoting the terrorist group Hamas - condemn him for etc etc. But I won't take it personally because I have come to expect very little from some people.

because you've wasted my time.

Think what you want. Whatever.

you force me to play this game with you.

It's called CONVERSATION. And at this time you are not able to make your point. That's your problem. Not mine.

From William Murchison - “It being a free country and all, no one has to have a ‘conversation’ he doesn’t want to have, a fact that explains our longstanding non-conversation on race: the one we’re going to continue not having, never mind the pundits and Barack Obama. A conversation has at least two participants. That’s one more than most American liberals desire. A liberal, black or white, doesn’t by and large want an exchange of viewpoints on racial questions of consequence. What he wants is a microphone and an audience—preferably white, but he’ll take what he can get. This audience he proposes to instruct as to the collective iniquity of white America in its dealings with non-white America. That isn’t all he wants. He wants utter silence from the audience. No back talk. You couldn’t characterize a one-sided lecture as ‘conversation,’ and yet it’s pretty much what we get every time the matter of race intrudes itself into public affairs.”



[edit on 3/31/2008 by FlyersFan]

Originally posted by HarlemHottie
many black religious leaders who who believe in 'liberation theology', as it's called, are quite beyond the point of asking nicely for justice from their God (or Allah).

Well ... this was a very puzzling statement so i went out did some research.

EXPOSED

To quote from the New York Times document -
(this is the only way I know how to quote it)
Washington Times
S.A. Miller
April 1, 2008

The church where Sen. Barack Obama has worshipped for two decades publicly declares that its ministry is founded on a 1960s book that espouses "the destruction of the white enemy."

Trinity United Church of Christ's Web site says its teachings are based on the black liberation theology of James H. Cone and his 1969 book "Black Theology and Black Power."

"What we need is the divine love as expressed in Black Power, which is the power of black people to destroy their oppressors here and now by any means at their disposal. Unless God is participating in this holy activity, we must reject his love," Mr. Cone wrote in the book.

So unless God participates in the destruction of the 'white enemy', those who subscribe to this 'theology' will refuse God's love. No mention is made of ones own complicity in their status in life ... just that it's all whiteys fault.

This James H. Cone ... quite a 'theologian', eh??

This is what so called 'black liberation theology' is based on. This is what Wright and Moss base their so called 'ministry' on. For Moss to compare someone who follows this bunk as 'christ like' is vile. Simply vile.





[edit on 4/2/2008 by FlyersFan]

I found the entire quote by James Cone. Here ya' go -

By James Cone
Black Theology and Black Power:

“Black theology refuses to accept a God who is not identified totally with the goals of the black community. If God is not for us and against white people, then he is a murderer, and we had better kill him. The task of black theology is to kill Gods who do not belong to the black community. Black theology will accept only the love of God which participates in the destruction of the white enemy. What we need is the divine love as expressed in Black Power, which is the power of black people to destroy their oppressors here and now by any means at their disposal. Unless God is participating in this holy activity, we must reject his love.”

THIS is what Otis Moss III bases his Black Liberation Theology on.

This is also what Wright, Obama's pastor and MENTOR of 23 years bases his theology and life on.

This is what Obama signed up for when he joined a Black Liberation Theology Church. (just a fancy word for 'let's hate white people' church)

NO UNITY. No change. No hope.

Originally posted by FlyersFan
This is what Obama signed up for when he joined a Black Liberation Theology Church.

And this is what's known as Manufactured Political Distractions. (Click on the bottom video) The people aren't concerned about what opinions are held by every person who Obama knows or has ever been in contact with. That's just distractions. They're concerned about health care, education and this God-forsaken war that Bush has going. THAT'S what matters. Not what some old dead guy thinks.

[edit on 18-4-2008 by Benevolent Heretic]

LMAO @ YOU TWO!

You both kept checking up on the thread for like 2 weeks, just to try and stop the other person having the last word.

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
THAT'S what matters. Not what some old dead guy thinks.

I gave a snip from Obama's 'bible'. This is what runs his life. This is what runs the life of his very close long time mentor. This is what runs his wife's life. This is what runs his new pastors life.

This matters.

It goes straight to the heart of what Obama is about.
" If God is not for us and against white people .... "

This is at the heart of how he would run his administration. This is at the heart of the decisions he'd make. This is at the heart of everything because it's IN HIS HEART.

This matters.

Originally posted by budski
LMAO

Glad to bring some entertainment to your Friday night.

reply to post by FlyersFan


you did indeed FF

but then you know I like your threads

Originally posted by budski
You both kept checking up on the thread for like 2 weeks, just to try and stop the other person having the last word.

Hardly. It's in my subscribed threads, so when someone posts in it, it shows up. I like FF's threads, too. That's why I read and post in most of them.

Hey FF, suppose we should tell everyone we're friends and email each other often? Nah, it might burst the bubble that people that have politically opposite opinions have to hate each other! LOL

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
Hey FF, suppose we should tell everyone we're friends and email each other often?

Yep. You seriously need to email me. I need to know how your new covered garden is .. and the puppy. Oh wait .. I forgot .. I'm not supposed to like you. Bad BH .. BAD BAD! GRRRRRRR!

(seriously girl .. email me! )

edited to add (just so I can say that this post is on topic).... To say that it doesn't matter what the founder of so-called Black Liberation Theology says is the same thing as saying it doesn't matter what the founder of the KKK said.

It mattered that David Duke was in the KKK and it mattered what the founder said.

It matters that Obama is in a black version of the KKK - it matters very much what the founder said because THAT is what Obama basis his life on.

And it's a very, very ugly base.

[edit on 4/19/2008 by FlyersFan]

Originally posted by FlyersFan
It matters that Obama is in a black version of the KKK - it matters very much what the founder said because THAT is what Obama basis his life on.

I accept that it matters to you. And I really can understand that. I would have been more accurate to say that it doesn't matter to me because I disagree with the premise that Obama "bases his life on" the words of the man who wrote a book that his church mentions in reference.

I think Obama's a pretty reasonable guy. And if he can disagree with some of the things his preacher says (which I believe he does), then he can disagree with something and still be involved with it. I can do that. Our friendship is PROOF of that. If I were judged on some of the things you've said, it's possible some of my friends wouldn't like me much. And I'm sure the same is true vice versa.

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
it doesn't matter to me

Okay. That’s fine. I understand that.

I disagree with the premise that Obama "bases his life on" the words of the man who wrote a book that his church mentions in reference.

Do you mean he’s going to that church ‘cafeteria style’?? Cafeteria Christianity is understandable. Many folks cafeteria-ize their religion. They pick and choose what they want to believe. They don’t buy into the entire product, but only this and that….

HOWEVER (you knew there was a ‘however’, didn’t ya!!) That book is more than just something that is ‘mentioned in reference’. It’s what the church is based on. It permeates everything in the place. It has been embraced by the old pastor (Wright) and the new one (Moss). It is the life blood of that ‘church’. There is no escaping it. That’s it’s purpose.

Cafeteria style Christianity is understandable, but in this case and with this subject it isn’t possible. It’s not some little item that can be overlooked. It’s the entire purpose of the church. It’s the core philosophy. It’s the reason the church exists.

There is no way to cafeteria-ize out ‘black liberation theology’ when in fact that’s what the church is all about. He has to agree with it, otherwise he wouldn’t have been able to stomach sitting in the pews for 20 years listening to it. He wouldn’t have been able to stand it. And he wouldn’t have picked as his close mentor (for the past 20 years) a man who earns a living preaching it.

What is this, 11 Obama threads in 20 days?

A new record for mudslinging I think!! Congrats, let's put it in the books.

Anyway, so you complain that he didn't distance himself from he Reverend. Then, when he goes and gets someone new, you rip him a new one again.

The only thing you have to complain about is that they blamed the media, instead of Rev. Wright.

What do you expect? Obama has chastised him for his comments publicly. Do you want an actual crucifixion?

When Bush said OBGYNs need to make love to their patients, did you crucify him? When he used bad intelligence to attack Iraq, did you damn Bush? When he said he didn't know about waterboarding, but then it was proven that his cabinent not only authorized it, but planned it, did you make threads about it on here?

You are all about party allegience. I'm not impressed, and anyone who takes a look at you're posting history shouldn't be either.

Just keep slangin that mud.

[edit on 20-4-2008 by Sublime620]

reply to post by Sublime620


^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^


Well I guess it won't be long before we know whether the new coding of the Posts button can stand the abuse, eh?

Just curious....what business is it of yours what or how much FF decides to post on? Did someone make you the official bean counter here?

There are people here who make a living by bashing Bush and his administration. In fact, that's practically all they post about. And you're always in there bashing right along with them.

So Pot, meet Kettle. And don't throw stones if you want to "stay classy".