Hello.

I am a Canadian (I only mention because of stricter gun laws) who already has a 30-06 and .270 pump hunting rifles. I want a s***s n giggles gun but one that would be also be good as my bug out rifle. I have come down to the decision of one the two in the title, but cannot narrow it down any further. Both are legal in Canada, and I'm unsure if the M1A is, but if anyone can give the pro's/con's of both (all three) as bugout/fun guns, that would be cool.

Bare bones, here- if it's semi-auto and not a Garand, it's capped to five rounds by law. The Garand's clips will be eight, and you can get a Lee-Enfield that is permitted the full ten rounds. The M14 and M1A as well as the crappy, black-barbie-piece-of-plastic-garbage AR15s would be limited to five rounds.

In addition, the Garand is available in .30-06 or .308. The Enfield is available in .303 or .308.

Brass tacks- if you want a weapon to play dress-up with, get an AR. It'll jam all the time, but it'll look something mean. If you want a serious survival rifle, get a Garand or an Enfield.

DE

Black plastic Barbie piece of garbage eh?

Let me tell you just what that black, all steel piece of modern weapons technology is capable of. These rifles are not Glocks. They have no plastic in the upper or lower receiver.

Your Garand or M14 will weigh a ton compared to a .308 black rifle. Your M14 or Garand will weigh 10.5-11.5 pounds empty. Now try to put a decent scope on that Garand and see what your weapon weighs then. Oh but now you need a sandbag on the stock so that your head will be in line with that scope because the design of the weapon is for iron sights, not scopes.

Now your rifle weighs 14-16 pounds (still empty) and is completely front heavy with that extremely long gas piston running down the length of the rifle.

Now let’s take into consideration that over 70 percent of the globe is considered built up areas and lets see how effective you are at toting that long front heavy rifle around a lot of buildings and ruble. Kind of unwieldy isn’t it. Just wait until you try climbing a bunch of stairs in a few of those buildings trying to find some food and hoping not to run into a bad guy.

Lets say that you opted for the Garand and let’s say that you do run into a bad guy and you fire off a few shots through a wall towards them. Well now my friend you have only 4 shots in your magazine and your waiting for the bad guy to make his move. Bet youd like to reload about now huh? But you can’t because it will take forever to cycle those last 4 rounds out of that rifle. I suppose that you will just opt to fire off the rounds like they did in World War two to hurry up and empty your gun so you can have a fresh round of 8 bullets to be ready for that counter attack. But then again, you’re in survival mode. You can’t just chew through ammo now can you.

More to follow later.

Originally posted by DeusEx


Brass tacks- if you want a weapon to play dress-up with, get an AR. It'll jam all the time,
DE

No it won't! You confuse the ARs of yesteryear with todays sweet babies.

I don't know if a Canadian can own one. Can ya?

Roper

you can throw around all the numbers in the world. It all boils down to two things. Personal preference, and skill level. If your not comterable with your weapon your not going to be able to hit the broad side of a barn consistently.

Personally I like the M14. The new M1A SOCOM II is awesome. its about time the old work horse got a remake.

Roper- you can own a knockoff AR, like a DPMS, but that's it. All mags capped to five rounds, with the exception of those I listed as far as rifles are concerned. And as to jamming, let's ask some questions:

1. Do you still have the itty bitty gas tube?

2. Do you still have the junk bolt system, where all that sweet sweet carbon is emptied into the chamber and all over the bolt?

3. Do the magic ARs have a new ejection system, so that the port actually stays shut in between shots? Because, ya know, the only thing that could make a weapon like that better is the ability for dirt and precipitation to go INTO the chamber while the weapon is firing, and all over the bolt in between shots.

I can reasonably say that this is a weapon I'd really rather not take with me, even if it's light AND chambered to .308. If the mag limits were different...maybe. Probably not. the SOCOM looks like a fine weapon, for sure. But it's that mag limit that's a killer.

I'd also like to note that if you want a FIBUA weapon, it probably won't be considered a 'survival rifle'. You may need to use the rifle as such in a pinch, but you're not going to be clearing every house on the block with it.

DE

I take my AR out with me every morning looking for coyotes that like to kill calves. I charge it and leave the port open, this country is very dry and dusty, I haven't cleaned it in quite some spell, seeing how this weapon will do in dirty conditions.

I do believe the pistons driven AR will have less trouble but at this point I'm having no trouble.

Rock River rocks!

Roper

Impressive. Then again, I watched my buddy's C7 bolt freeze solid. I watched another friend get jacked up for a weapons malfunction (he couldn't clear his weapon), and then have the Mcpl turn extremely humble when he found that the round was frozen to the bolt face. Hell, my personal experience with the rifle wasn't so hot. Fair number of jams, finicky in cold weather. I can't say about dust, it never came up. But precipitation and below-zero weather absolutely kicked the rifle around.

DE

[edit on 23-3-2008 by DeusEx]

Thanks for the input guys!

This is what I wanted. People with different opinions giving both sides of it all. I'm still on the fence though. I have heard that the Garands internal mag is much more reliable, but how hard is it to fix in the field if messes up, breaks, gets cogged etc., where as an external mag, if one goes, you can just use another. The M1 and M14 are both legal, and so is the AR 15, but only as a restricted rifle, which means I cant even take it out to the bush to target shoot, it has to be at a registered range.

Oh and yes cold weather is a HUGE factor, which will hold up the best in that, and also rain and snow etc.?

[edit on 23-3-2008 by Tenebrous]

I would love to try one of Fulton's Super scouts. Btw, hasn't the U.S military been buying back all the M14's?

I wrote most of this in a previous thread but I think it pertains here.

M1 Garand. Best sitX rifle imo. No other U.S. issued Semi Auto or Selective fire MBR has seen every weather condition on such a large scale as the M1.

The 8rd enbloc clip is always a been a reason for people to bash the M1. That bashing is really unjustified, especially in a homeland defense sense. Why? In any semi-auto firearm that uses a detachable magazine, the source of most feeding problems stems from the magazine itself. The M1 clip can be reused indefinately whereas detachable mags wear out and need springs replaced and mag lips recontoured.

It has a Low parts count. While a low parts count alone does not make something more reliable, it does have a major benefit in regards to Murphy's Law. The only MBR that has fewer parts than the M1's 62 total is the M14's 61 total. The FAL has 143, the AR has 119, the HK91 has 92.

It is hard to beat an M1 when it comes to combat range & accuracy. The excellent sights coupled with a long sight radius and excellent trigger really add to the combat accuracy. The 30-06 cartridge lethality stretches past the 7.62X51 a solid 100-150 yards.

If were talking 400+ yard harassment and scout/DM situations the M1 fits that role well. While. Also if you have to have a .308, you can rebarrel an M1 and still be well under the cost of a DSA FAL or SA M1-A.

just to drop my 2 cents here...!

i recommend you to buy a Karabiner K98k rifle if you want something really good!

Isn't the Kar. 98 over a 100 years old. Not that that matters to much, but wouldn't something a little more up to day be appropriate. Besides I already own a bolt action and am perfectly happy with it.

Originally posted by Tenebrous
Hello.

I am a Canadian (I only mention because of stricter gun laws) who already has a 30-06 and .270 pump hunting rifles. I want a s***s n giggles gun but one that would be also be good as my bug out rifle. I have come down to the decision of one the two in the title, but cannot narrow it down any further. Both are legal in Canada, and I'm unsure if the M1A is, but if anyone can give the pro's/con's of both (all three) as bugout/fun guns, that would be cool.

Hey Tenebrous, all

I guess firstly.. Whats your budget?

There are many independent manufacturers licenced to make the rifles you've mentioned. LWRC make the newish DMR, an AR15 derrivitave that uses 5.56mm round as apose to the 7.62 round of the AK.

Or if you want to spend a few bucks anything made by Heckler & Koch, Steyr's AUG, IMI Galil( comes with a bottle opener forward the trigger guard ) or Kalashnikov, there own or any of the Chinese liscenced companys.

i recommend you to buy a Karabiner K98k rifle if you want something really good!

lol.... I don't think I have ever laughed so hard reading a forum. Suffice to say, I disagree with this statement (it is a fun weapon to shoot though).

Personally, I would go with the M14. It is reliable and can (in my experience) stay strong is snow and bitter cold. That's my vote.

I will say something on the AR15 though. The newer models are not like the garbage they used to use in Vietnam. The only issue with the AR15 is to get a good one you may be spending more than a grand.

If the Canadian government tells you that you can’t use an AR style 308 rifle then I would completely, and without any hesitation, recommend that you go with the M14 308 rifle.

The M1 Garand is a great weapon, make no mistake about it. General Patton called it, “The greatest battle implement ever devised.” However, the Garand was a modified hunting rifle design, and when the weapon was placed in urban combat during world war two, the weapon had some drawbacks and design flaws that cost many people their lives.

So, not long after World War Two, the military correctly took their M1 Garand and tried to make it better. The result was the M14, a rifle design that took what was best about the M1 and only made it better. The rifles have so much in common that they are practically brothers, not cousins. The M14 was almost a perfect marriage between keeping the strengths of the M1 Garand, and editing out its weaknesses. The creation of the M14 from the Garand design was perhaps one of the best weapons system redesigns of the 19th and 20th centuries.

The M14 is a rifle that has, since its design, served in almost every war that America has been in. It was one of the first semi-automatic rifles to serve as a sniper weapons platform. The 308 round is a very efficient and effective killing round. For battlefield use, people still claim that the 308 is overkill. Yes, it is smaller than the 30-06, but warfare has proven the combat effectiveness of the 308 round in every single weapon platform that it has been used in from machine guns to sniper weapons.

I would proudly own and carry an M14 rifle if I could not obtain an AR platform 308 weapon like the DPMS Panther LR .308. However, I am in America, and I will be trading in my Savage 308 varmint bolt action rifle for one of DPMS’ fine AR 308’s very soon.

Go with the M14, you will not regret it. However, if you chose the M1A, you will love that one also, but soon, you will be kicking yourself in the butt for not getting the M14 instead. The advantages that the M14 offers over the M1 Garand fully compensate for the smaller 308 round, which, IMO, is one of the best rounds ever devised for combat.