Secondary Round 1. TheDuckster v Whatukno: Women Rule

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posted on Mar, 22 2008 @ 09:35 PM
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The topic for this debate is "Women should rule the world".

TheDuckster will be arguing the pro position and will open the debate.
Whatukno will argue the con position.

Each debater will have one opening statement each. This will be followed by 3 alternating replies each. There will then be one closing statement each and no rebuttal.


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posted on Mar, 23 2008 @ 08:31 PM
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If Women Ruled the World

TheDuckster enters the Dojo. She bows respectively towards TheVagabond, then bows towards whatukno.

OPENING STATEMENT:

"The battle for 'Supremacy' will not be fought over oil-wells or wealth, nor will this fight engage in matters of brute strength. The doors of the home have sprung forth...and we will now reconcile the 1000's of years of surpression, that have singled out countless female lives, principalities, and future timelines, that should have prevailed; save for the idiosyncrasies and warfaring tendencies of the male species, that should, by all rights, have died out in the beginning of our history's stratum." ~TheDuckster~

Yet...it didn't.

****

I am TheDuckster, and I will reveal to my opponent, and to you readers, why it is more feasible if women ruled the world. I'll be citing as many examples as are permitted (No doubt, the debate could continue on in an endless note, as we will be hashing and re-hashing differences
on the subject of women vs man, that have been in effect since the beginning of time.)

I'm going to turn the tables on our Y-Chromosome friend, by re-defining acceptable and proper means of government that would greatly benefit ALL persons on this planet, as well as to include the countless derogatory actions that man has enlisted throughout the generations, to propagate and justify his stance in this world.

I'll be focusing on issues such as:

Male-dominated societies that contribute to:
1. Biases and repression of females.
2. Female infanticide.
3. Matriarchal systems.
4. Unfair salary wages for the same work performed.

Walk a mile in my shoes

If you are a male, and are reading this right now, I would ask that you put away any biases, and for one moment in time, feel what it is like to live in the shadow of men.

Men would have you believe that they are treating women fairly, but I want to direct your attention to the word 'Equality'


noun
1. the quality of being the same in quantity or measure or value or status [ant: inequality]
2. a state of being essentially equal or equivalent; equally balanced; "on a par with the best"


The word 'Equality' amongst the genders has not played a prominent role in our society until late, and even then, some are more equal than others. How can this be?

Instead of elevating women to an equal status they so richly deserve, men have deemed this 'fairer sex' to be beneath himself. In some cases this action has stretched to even equate women as 'chattel'. (I will explain these concepts in depth later.)

When all else fails...bring in a women to the conference table

BBC News

In the face of despair, when all the male leaders had given up, she restored hope, and marshalled the Asantes to fight the British to preserve the Golden Stool, the sovereignty of the Asantes.

Her leadership was critical, she restored and rekindled their determination to assert and fight for their independence against all odds.


When tempers flair, due to testosterone build-up, as well as the need to 'dominate', men will inevitably resort to behavior that would result in:


Political life is organized according to male norms and values that promote confrontation, competitiveness, and is adversarial.

These masculine norms facilitate conflict.


"Out with the old...in with the new"

Man has had thousands of years to get his act into gear. Yet, he has proven time and time again to not measure up.

Had women been at the forefront, or better yet, holding the reins of power, from the onset, I contend that there would have been far less warfare and strife on this planet.

He would have developed the ability to be more empathetic to his neighbors, due to influences from his counterpart - woman.

Thankyou.

Elmer points his rifle at Bugs.

"I got you now... youuuuu...wascal!



posted on Mar, 24 2008 @ 07:37 AM
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Again thanks are in order and proper etiquette dictates that I pay respect and homage to both The Vagabond and my honorable opponent TheDuckster. To The Vagabond, my heartfelt appreciation for this consolidation tournament and to my valued opponent TheDuckster my warmest regards.

Opening Statement: Hell hath no fury

Ladies and Gentlemen: This being the classic battle between the sexes I shall show that women indeed should not rule the world based on historic evidence that will prove conclusively that females can be most treacherous, diabolical, evil and cunning. But do not have what it takes in order to rule a world where decisions based on logic and reason have to be made.

Cleopatra deceptively used sex in order to stave off Roman conquest of Egypt. Pardon the pun but her plan backfired and bit her in the asp.


Cleopatra VII was the last great ruler of the Ptolemaic line. In an attempt to maintain Egyptian power she aligned herself with Julius Caesar and, later, Mark Antony, but these moves only postponed the end. After her forces were defeated by Roman legions under Octavian (later Emperor Augustus), Cleopatra committed suicide in 30 BC.

Source:h istory.com

While other female rulers have come and gone, what has gone with them is the withering and decay of once proud societies and civilizations.

Case in point while Queen Elisabeth was quite popular during the golden age her fate yet again was the decline of a glorious empire.


Elizabeth's popularity waned toward the end of her reign because of her heavy expenditures and abuse of royal power. Moreover, her policies became weaker, her later ministers being less able than Cecil or Walsingham. The close of Elizabeth's reign was disturbed by a revolt in Ireland that was led by Hugh O'Neill. The 2d earl of Essex, Elizabeth's favorite, unsuccessfully led an army against the Irish. When he returned to England, he led a revolt against the queen and was executed in 1601. Following his death, Elizabeth was disconsolate. She spent the last years of her life unhappy and alone, having outlived a glorious age, the beginning of the history of what would become modern England. She died in London on March 23, 1603.

Source: history.com

Wars have been started over the simple matter of a woman. This is evident in the story of Helen of Troy, the face that launched a thousand ships, and thus started the Trojan War.

Lorena Bobbit did what?

Psychologically as well women are ill equipped to rule the world by virtue that many decisions women make are based solely on emotion. In conflict resolution this can be devastating. Not being able to disassociate themselves from the emotional side of themselves can complicate matters for logic and emotion rarely mixes. As well as the well documented and medically understood nature by which women can become catty when in the presence of other women. This cattiness can impede a delicate peace negotiation if the opposing deliberators happen to be female.

Women indeed are complex creatures that are difficult to understand. During the time that a woman is menstruating a woman may become overly emotional and thus clouding her better judgment. While this does not occur in men, this attitude sway puts a woman at a clear disadvantage. A woman leader that shows too much emotion at the wrong time may give her countries enemies a view of weakness that they will exploit to full advantage.

Simply put men have ruled a rough world for a long time because men are simply better at making hard decisions based on logic.

Thank you,

What U KNO

Eh Daffy… (Bugs holds up sign)

It’s duck season!



posted on Mar, 24 2008 @ 08:03 PM
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FIRST REBUTTAL

I feel the need to address this one, right off the bat:


Women indeed are complex creatures that are difficult to understand. During the time that a woman is menstruating a woman may become overly emotional and thus clouding her better judgment. While this does not occur in men, this attitude sway puts a woman at a clear
disadvantage. A woman leader that shows too much emotion at the wrong time may give her countries enemies a view of weakness that they will exploit to full advantage.


*Side Note*
Speaking of letting 'one's emotions get the best of them', was it not a fact, that a woman decided to take matters into to her own hands, because her husband was too 'afraid' to 'take a bite out of life.'? Knowledge? So it got them both kicked out of paradise? So what? We expanded our real-estate horizons elsewhere. No biggy.

As far as being plagued by 'that time of the month', every good leader needs some time off, once in a while.

Women aren't the only ones that Mother Nature has a good chuckle with; men are just as infallible, when it comes to hormonal changes. Let's concider this neat, little, real medical condition...

Andropause


In addition, mood inventory scores indicate that during andropause, men report levels of anger, confusion, depression, and fatigue that are significantly higher than those reported by men with normal testosterone levels. The average human male begins to feel some symptoms of andropause after 40 to 45 years old, which is followed by rapid deterioration after the age of 50.


While estrogens in women protect them from heart disease and osteoporosis, the effects are the opposite for men. Too much estrogen will actually increase the risk of heart attacks in men; this and in conjunction with high stress levels associated with political leadership roles makes them prime candidates for this deadly disease.

Many, male Political officials are in their middle age, as well as most Presidents, Prime Ministers, etc, and are in no doubt, right in the 'mood swing of things', and probably need to take time off to cope with this.

Gee...mabey that's the reason why so many politicians like to take so many vacations? There's our hard-earned tax-paying monies at work folks. I shudder to think of how many men have been voted into office, while being afflicted with this 'natural biological condition.'

How can they suppose to think straight and make proper decisions for the rest of the country, without letting their homones get in the way? The shame of it all...

'The Golden-Guilded Cage vs 'True Freedom'

"A ship in the harbor is safe...but that's not what ships are built for."~William Shedo~

The same can be said for women. If not allowed to express ourselves to the utmost, without fear of reprisal, surpression, and literally beaten into submission...one can not hope to achieve the best of the 'human spirit'. So it is with alot of cultures, herding their women, forcing them to cover-up their physique, and denying them basic essentials, conducive to a properly educated, productive and healthy environment.

Take *Note* "None of these situations are apparent...when the gender roles are reversed."

A women at the governmental helm, would more than likely, ensure fairness and equality for all. Nurturing and Empathy, would have been on the forefront, and laws would have been enacted to prevent the above examples from happening in the first place. Those voices, crying out in the night for justice and equality, would NOT have fallen on deaf ears...if a woman were in power from the very beginning.

When Money is worth more than a human life

Female Infanticide and Dowries

Believe it or not, Female Infanticide is still going on, to this day, in countries such as China and India.

This despicable practice, focuses on the deliberate act of killing female babies when they are born, simply because they are not male (gender intolerance), and not deemed to be equally worthy in the eyes of society.


female infanticide reflects the low status accorded to women in many societies around the world. The "burden" of taking a woman into the family accounts for the high dowry rates in India which, in turn, have led to an epidemic female infanticide. Typical also is China, where...

"culture dictates that when a girl marries she leaves her family and becomes part of her husband's family. For this reason Chinese peasants have for many centuries wanted a son to ensure there is someone to look after them in their old age -- having a boy child is the best pension a Chinese peasant can get. Baby girls are even called "maggots in the rice"


Lovely eh?

Some women go as far as finding out the sex of their baby via ultrasound, etc. and will have the fetus aborted, upon knowing that the desired sex (male) has been found not growing in her womb.


it is arguably the most brutal and destructive manifestation of the anti-female bias that pervades "patriarchal" societies.


A women in India is expected to provide a Dowery to her husband, before she marries him.


While a daughter might drain the family finances, a son could actually enhance it. And as time goes on, the dowry demands seem only to be increasing monetarily, making sons the smarter family investment. Dr. Patel explains that the rise in dowry price is a means of upward social
mobility. "I think it is the way you keep up with consumerist culture," postulates Dr. Patel.

"Daughter means a liability, and son means an asset. In my community sons are called 'blank checks.' This is the culture in which we live."
For families with sons, there is no way but to follow the practice of dowry. As Ms. Kishwar notes, even if families with sons demand minimum or no dowries at all, society does not reckon this as noble. Quite the opposite, society may feel that a low dowry reflects a family's judgment of
their son's worthlessness.



Simply put men have ruled a rough world for a long time because men are simply better at making hard decisions based on logic.


They made sure to stack the cards in their favor, by lording their physical strength over us, and held us at bay, by denying us the same education they were privileged to have many moons ago.

The world doesn't revolve around 'total logic'. There must be a balance between the logical, emotional, and otherwise.

Look at where the so-called 'total logic' has brought us today. Hoh boy. We should be jumping for joy, and running around fields of bliss, enjoying brotherly love, and singing Hallelujah to each other.

Instead, it has left us ALL, helplessly sitting on our knees, begging for change. The world isn't necessarilly a better place due to the hand of man. Turn on the TV, read a newspaper, or go online. Most of the news is not all peaches and cream. Some is 'sensational'.

And the Global Personnels running the show? You guessed it!!!...Man.

****

Extra Tidbit:


An English professor wrote the words, “Woman without her man is nothing” on the blackboard and directed his students to punctuate it correctly.

The men wrote: “Woman, without her man, is nothing.”
The women wrote: “Woman: Without her, man is nothing.”


The differences in the way people think...got to love it!

Thankyou

Your up next Bugs...say you're pwayers wabbit!



posted on Mar, 26 2008 @ 06:35 AM
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First Rebuttal.

Well let’s look at this monumentus decision by women shall we?

*Side Note*
Speaking of letting 'one's emotions get the best of them', was it not a fact, that a woman decided to take matters into to her own hands, because her husband was too 'afraid' to 'take a bite out of life.'? Knowledge? So it got them both kicked out of paradise? So what? We expanded our real-estate horizons elsewhere. No biggy.

Let us look at this side note in depth as to the repercussions that were wrought upon mankind by Eve taking the bite out of the forbidden fruit.
Paradise, The Garden of Eden, The cradle of mankind.
So let us look at what God to Adam said about this place that my opponent felt was just not good enough to live in…

15 The LORD God took the man and put him in the Garden of Eden to work it and take care of it. 16 And the LORD God commanded the man, "You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; 17 but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die."

Source: bibleresources.bible.com...] bibleresources.bible.com[/url]
Yea good thinking Eve, thanks for that. Let’s just sacrifice mankind’s immortality for toiling in an inhospitable environment, especially when the place we used to live was a paradise with everything we could want or need. Good thinking Eve. Gotta hand it to ya for that one. Yep the knowledge of good and evil justified our deaths to know. I don’t know about anyone else but I believe our collective innocence versus our inevitable deaths is too high of a price to pay.
Adam got the picture, and you wonder why women have been oppressed for so long?


forcing them to cover-up their physique, and denying them basic essentials, conducive to a properly educated, productive and healthy environment.

I will agree with you on this one, the female form is beautiful and should never be oppressed as well as the opportunity for education and to live in an environment without fear.

Take *Note* "None of these situations are apparent...when the gender roles are reversed."

Oh I beg to differ, as a formerly married man I sorely beg to differ on this point. It is a well known statement, that in a married environment if “Mommy is not happy NO ONE IS HAPPY”
This leads to divorce. The divorce rate in the United States is well over 50% in Canada it is about the same the number. Of women that initiate the divorce is near 75% source:www.fathersforlife.org..." target="_blank" class="postlink" rel="nofollow"> fathersforlife.org
Men have so much to loose nowadays by not capitulating to their wife’s every whim and desire. A divorce for a man is much more expensive than it is for a woman, because a man has to overcome the court’s obligation to appease the woman for the time during the marriage. If they for instance have to both work and have children the man has to fight twice as hard to have any real time with his children, if the man happens to make more money than the wife then he must pay alimony to her. “For the lifestyle that she has become accustomed to”

A women at the governmental helm, would more than likely, ensure fairness and equality for all. Nurturing and Empathy,
Nurturing and Empathy eh?
Marie Antoinette said, “Let them eat cake” referring to her starving peasantry, that’s nurturing and empathy from a feminine government leader for you.
This reminds me of a grand idea that came out of the book, “Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy.”

The Point-of-view gun is a fictional device created by Douglas Adams for the movie version of The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy; it does not appear in any of the previous versions of the story..
According to the film, the gun was created by Deep Thought prior to its long pondering of the Answer to Life, the Universe, and Everything. When used on someone, it will cause them to see things from the point of view of the person firing the gun. According to the Guide, the gun was commissioned by the Intergalactic Consortium of Angry Housewives, who were tired of ending every argument with their husbands with the phrase: "You just don't get it, do you?"


When Money is worth more than a human life

So let me take this section apart for a minute here and examine this…

Yes I do believe that these atrocities do occur in India and China. The fact remains that the world would just be a better place if yours truly were in control. The logic behind these horrible acts is simple. This planet is way overpopulated as it is. Females can give birth to multiple children, men on the other hand have a much more difficult time, (read can’t conceive).
The age-old typical gender rolls are that the man is the hunter-gatherer and the woman is to tend the home and family. In the US and other “civilized nations” this idea of gender rolls has been nearly obliterated. I will personally not see women as equal to a man until the day I see a woman becomes a sanitation engineer. I am sure she exists somewhere in this country. But until a woman comes and picks up my garbage I will continue to see females while being mentally equal to any man selective in what they deem as equality. If you want to be my equal and have the same pay for the same work, do the same work.
Female Bosses
Now where I work my direct supervisor is a female, she will tell you that I respect her and do everything that she tells me to do, to the best of my ability and with absolutely no problems or incidences where her gender plays a part of my job performance.
The truth is that yes her gender does play a part in some aspects of my interaction with her. I must give her more respect than the general manager of the store that I work at. He is a man. He has told me to do some things but the fact that he is a fellow man allows me to when he is wrong tell him to stuff it. (I of course do that respectfully but my mannerisms and verbiage can alter and I feel freer to express myself as I normally would without fear of being treated as a sexist pig)
To put it frankly with her I have to act as if I were married, her emotional issues have gotten in the way several times and she has acted toward me and customers in a less than a professional manner. While I have adapted to this and accept this as the norm in this job others have not and for this they no longer or soon to no longer have a position in the company.
We work nights, so when she goes outside for some aspect of the job and she is out of site for too long I go look for her. With the other male employee I would not think of doing so. As far as her job performance and where she is in the company go she does deserve her post, she I feel could actually rise to the level of store manager and I feel that she would be an asset to the company to do so.
In another job I worked as an account’s payable clerk for a hotel. My boss was a rather attractive female controller. Adept at her job beyond abilities I have ever witnessed in a person of mathematical skill. Again I respected her for her ability and her position but again there arose problems based solely on gender. One arose because of my candy drawer; I used to keep the bottom left hand drawer filled with m&m’s, cookies, crackers, chips, pretzels, and other assorted munchies. (I eat a lot) The specific complaint was and I did not appreciate this…

“I am going to have to fire you because I have gained 20 lbs sense you have been in this office.” It was obviously a joke, however a male boss would not have said such a thing. In fact most employees that came to the accounting office preferred to sit next to my desk because of the treats available. This made for in my opinion a more comfortable setting when I would have to ask about expenditures.
If women want to be equal in the workplace they have to realize that equality means equality. I don’t want to hear about a woman’s personal life or their own issues as much as it would be inappropriate for me to have to listen to a female boss’s issues with her own weight.
Such is the same with a female leader and why females should not run the world. The lack of respect a man is given when a female is given power shows the obvious problems with this idea.
My opponent pointed out the male version of menopause. Granted this might be an actual condition but men will strive to overcome the problems associated with this because of the dog eat dog world that exists. Weakness in this world is frowned upon. Any weakness can be exploited, and as such the adversaries of that man will certainly exploit a male version of menopause
. Now onto the Socratic questions….

1) If say you were the female ruler of the world how would you respond to a man’s flatulence in your presence?

2) You have a box that is too heavy for you to lift who do you call in order to lift the problem?

3) (Almost facetious) living with a man toilet seat up or down?

4) And why?

5) A burglar enters the home of a man and a woman who responds and why?

I apologize for my lateness, I have sent a u2u to both TheVagabond and TheDuckster explaining my tardiness. Both have answered and have accepted the reason.

Elmer: “eat wed duck!”



posted on Mar, 26 2008 @ 06:04 PM
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SECOND REBUTTAL

The bible has been proven to be somewhat inconsistant in it's storylines. It detracts from the 'here and now', and is in my opinion, a - waste of time - trying to incorporate what may or may not be fact, as opposed to what IS fact. Throughout this debate, I'll refrain from quoting text/scripture from this source, as it was penned by the hand of man, and contains too many biases towards women. You'll notice that I didn't provide a direct 'quote', but merely 'paraphrased words', to which my opponent aptly picked up on. Not so much a bait and switch tactic on my part, but more along the lines of 'tongue-in-cheek'. This is the very reason why I chose the words: Side Note. That's all it is. Nothing more, nothing less.

****
I've noticed that you've taken some of my (quotes) out of context, to perpetrate an entirely different train of thought(s); 'jumbled' throughout your rebuttal.

****
When it comes down to your citing of personal experiences, I'm not void of empathy in the least. However, you may very well be 'preaching to the choir' with issues that are not so much isolated events, but rather, marital circumstances that (might) need to be resolved under the guidance of a councillor.


Men have so much to loose nowadays by not capitulating to their wife’s every whim and desire.


Both husband and wife are not subordinates. Marriage is a partnership; or at least it should be. For one to constantly 'capitulate' out of fear or cohersion, denotes a loss of balance in the relationship. A 'falling into roles/ruts' so to speak.


A divorce for a man is much more expensive than it is for a woman, because a man has to overcome the court’s obligation to appease the woman for the time during the marriage. If they for instance have to both work and have children the man has to fight twice as hard to have any real time with his children, if the man happens to make more money than the wife then he must pay alimony to her. “For the lifestyle that she has become accustomed to”


Where children are involved, a judge will rule firstly, in the best interests of these kids. Everyone else takes a backseat for the moment. There too many factors involved, raising too many issues, as to 'why' a the man takes precidence over a women (and vice versa), in the matters of domicile, custody, alimony/palimony, etc. to be delved into, on a larger scale. Obviously, your above quote can be seen in a different light, if the genders were reversed. I'll leave this particular topic to another debate, where it belongs.

****
My opponent goes on to mention about Marie Antoinette. For the many examples that he has provided (few and far between), regarding the lists of 'faulty' female rulers, I feel the need to reciprocate with a few of my own:

Adolph Hitler, Benito Mussolini, Napoleon Bonaparte, Genghis Khan, Julius Caesar, King Herod, Fidel Castro, Ivan the terrible, Vlad the Impaler, Saddam Hussein, Idi Amin, Josef Stalin, Osama Bin Laden, Pol Pot, Mao. The list goes on and on. Need I say more?

****
RE: Female employer:

“I am going to have to fire you because I have gained 20 lbs sense you have been in this office.” It was obviously a joke, however a male boss would not have said such a thing.


Male employers, can, and do say such things. I've had these same words joked at me.

RE: Male employer:

but the fact that he is a fellow man allows me to when he is wrong tell him to stuff it.


Your words have betrayed you. I smell Double Standards here. On the one hand, you are chastising your boss for speaking in ways that you wouldn't dream of doing with others, and yet on the other hand, it's ok to 'pal around' jokingly with 'male humor' to your buddies?

Women's roles in society are often stereotyped by men, and think they have to act a certain way.

It is up to both the employee and employer to take each other aside, to iron out any misgivings in the workplace. 'Silence' maybe interpreted to mean permission on both fronts.

In response to your 1st question:

1) If say you were the female ruler of the world how would you respond to a man’s flatulence in your presence?


I'm not a prude, and biological functions are normal. As long as the person doesn't blatently wave their arse in my direction, all will be fine. You'd probably find me waving the air with one hand, while using the other to stifle a giggle or two.

Speaking of 'who' are the better leaders in the work force? Look what Business Week has to say!

By and large, the studies show that women executives, when rated by their peers, underlings, and bosses, score higher than their male counterparts on a wide variety of measures--from producing high-quality work to goal-setting to mentoring employees. Using elaborate performance evaluations of execs, researchers found that women got higher ratings than men on almost every skill measured. Ironically, the researchers weren't looking to ferret out gender differences.
They accidentally stumbled on the findings when they were compiling hundreds of routine performance evaluations and then analyzing the results.


Above all that cattiness, above all the raging hormones, above every thing else, we ranked higher then men. Proudly waving one of those big sports fingers with a #1 emblazened on it.

Women are taking on new challenges and more responsibilites. They're not afraid of getting their hands dirty. The world certainly isn't going to end over a broken nail or two. A few choice words later, new acrylic nail, spit n' a shine, and we're good to go.

In response to your 2nd question:

2) You have a box that is too heavy for you to lift who do you call in order to lift the problem?


If I'm the leader of a company, I'll hire someone to do it for me. If not, and the box is too heavy for me to lift, I'm not too proud to ask around for help; be it male or female. Who wants to throw their back out? Not me!!! It's not just females asking guys to help with heavy manuel labor. I've worked in warehouses, and have seen guys enlisting the help of other guys (and girls) to make the workload go easier for them. The name of the game here is 'teamwork'.


Weakness in this world is frowned upon. Any weakness can be exploited


Rather, Exploitation of weakness... is frowned upon. and definitely not the characteristics of good leadership.

One could say I'm a Sanitation Engineer of sorts. I take out people's trash everyday. I'll go you one further, and clean your toilet for you...for a fee of course. Read on.

In response to questions 3 and 4:

3) (Almost facetious) living with a man toilet seat up or down? 4) And why?


There are 2 males and 2 females living under my roof, and everyone is encouraged to put the seat down. I'm in the Residential Cleaning business, and after I've cleaned a toilet, I make sure the lid is down, then flush. Believe it or not...studies have shown there is a certain amount of splashback (fine spray) that occurs and extends past the toilet bowl to surrounding areas. For sanitary purposes, and to decrease contaminating toiletries, toothbrushes, etc. lid down is best.

In response to question 5:

5) A burglar enters the home of a man and a woman who responds and why?


Canadian Ex Prime Minister's wife comes to the rescue!

Police said the man broke into the prime minister's home by smashing a window with a rock. Chretien told reporters his wife woke up about 2:45 a.m. when she heard a noise. "She got up and she saw a person in front of her, and she closed back the door very rapidly, came back to the room and locked the other door,"



Chretien said the sound of the door closing woke him up, and after his wife told him what she had seen


I still laugh at this, to this day!

Hmmm....wondering if we should have elected his wife instead?

Thankyou

The Duck holds a bulls eye sign in front of the Wabbit and points to the middle..."Right here...Mister Fudd, I'll hold it steady for ya."



posted on Mar, 27 2008 @ 07:55 AM
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Rebuttal part Dux, As good as it gets?

In this movie Jack Nicholson plays a romance writer. He is asked by a rather bubbly secretary “how do you write women so well?”

His response clears up this debate from my side well. “I think of a man, and take away reason and accountability.”

While it is true that women have the mental faculties requisite for the job of world leader, qualities that my opponent in this debate shares, they ultimately do not have the physical strength nor do they have the patience required for long term goals.

Ok my opponent argues that my list of bad feminine leaders was poor so I shall expand on this list.

Margret Thatcher, Indira Ghandi, Catherine the great, Bloody Mary (alternatively Queen Mary), Tz'u-his (AKA The Dowager Princess), Golda Meir, Elizabeth I, Sirimavo Bandaranaike, Chandrika Kumaratunga, Queen Isabella of Spain, Queen Victoria of England, Imelda Marcos.

If you want to know why these women are deemed as bad leaders I would suggest looking up what they have done.
Yes indeed my opponent has given a list of some of mankind’s worst of the worst male rulers. She is correct about many of them. But there are so many more male rulers that were great men.

I will have to argue that Vlad Tepps should not be on that list because he in his home country of Transylvania was a war hero. Much of his life has been drawn through the mud because of his unusual eating habits. The writing of Bram Stoker has also discredited this fine leader that had saved his countrymen from the tyranny of the ottoman empire.

Napoleon Bonaparte. This confuses me as to why he was named as a bad leader; Napoleon was a brilliant military leader. Well except obviously for waterloo.

Genghis Khan. Also was a brilliant tactician and united his people in a way that had never been done before.

Julius Caesar. His military ascension to emperor of Rome strengthened the might of Rome and solidified it as the world power.

Now let us look at male leaders ones that have helped shape this world for the better.

Abraham Lincoln, George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, John F. Kennedy, Jimmy Carter, Ulysses S. Grant, Nelson Mandela, Mahatma Gandhi, Kofi Annan, Martin Luther King, Giuseppe Garibaldi, Pharaoh Khufu, Pavlos Melas, Mustafa Kemal Ataturk, Alexander the Great

Now this list goes on and on as well. Thus showing why great leaders have been male. Yes there have been some rather exceptional female leaders. But those are few. Absolute power does corrupt absolutely. When you look in comparison between how many female leaders there have been and the failure rate of these feminine leaders versus the same calculation for male counterparts the obviousness of this becomes clear.

Again a point that females should not rule the world is in the way women treat each other in large groups. This cattiness at times can be downright devastating. Rivalries between two or more females in a business setting can become heated to the point of physically abusive. In a world run by women this attitude would only be exaggerated possibly to the point of all out nuclear war. (women are notoriously brutal fighters)

My opponent will tell you that women if given the chance would create a world of peace and prosperity with equality and fairness among all humans. Unfortunately this is not true.

My arguments on women being fit to rule the world however should not be construed as women should not have authoritative power or equal rights. Women have the capacity for brilliance, and of course are valuable members of society. Our mothers, sisters, daughters should be treated with the respect they deserve. However to give women absolute control of the world would be akin to giving a small child a .44 Magnum. The child may indeed be intelligent and mature enough to wield such a weapon. However the physical strength that the child has is severely wanting for the power of such a firearm.

The world is a dangerous place and will exploit any weakness that a leader has. All armor has its chink, and the world will find that weakness in any leader. Women in a leadership roll would be equally under fire. The scrutiny that they would be under is may be too much to bear for a woman that relies on emotions to rule.


I smell Double Standards here


Absolutely there are double standards in the workplace and in society as a whole. This is to make it fair for women to co exist with men. These double standards work both ways. Some are biased towards women some are biased against women. A man hitting a woman is obviously wrong, while on the other hand a man complaining about the same treatment is looked on as weak. This is a loose, loose situation for men.

But I leave you with…

Bugs: (pushing Elmer's rifle towards Daffy) "Duck season."



posted on Mar, 27 2008 @ 07:24 PM
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FINAL REBUTTAL

My opponent has shown to be only 'consistant in his inconsistancy' by contradicting his own words, yet once again. One minute, he's quoting scenes of a movie that belittles the intelligence of women:


His response clears up this debate from my side well “I think of a man, and take away reason and accountability.


Then, in the next breath he states:


While it is true that women have the mental faculties requisite for the job of world leader


Here comes the Duck's favorite response...Say it with me folks...'Hoh Boy!

****
Share and Share Alike

In the Star Trek movie: First Contact, there is a scene at the end, I personally, have sort of equated to as man's acknowledgement of 'The Rise of Women in power'. It's actually really more along the lines of 'Brave New World', 'The start of Space Exploration'.

Scenerio: Just after Captain Picard and his crew kicked the Borg's butt, they are getting ready to go back to the future. He chats with a woman named Lily (from the 21st Century). The conversation went something like this:

Lily: "I envy you...where you are going."
Picard: "I envy You. This is an exciting time for you...the frontier of a new age..."

Tit for Tat in Talents

It was mentioned somewhere in the Star Trek series, that in the future, there was no need for 'money'. While this may someday come into fruition, somewhere down the road, at present, we are faced with problems concerning equal wages for equal work performed.

When the same amount of work is performed, and done in the same manner, one would expect to be paid the same wages as the next person...Right?....Wrong! Nothing could be further from the truth.

Wage gap between men and women in Canada

“Canada’s economy has a problem – it pays women less than men. It pays women less even when we are just as skilled, just as educated and work just as long. It leaves us with less to live on when our working years are over and it rewards us less when we invest in higher education or put
career ahead of family. The bottom line is women are still not equal, not even close, when it comes to the bottom line,” says Barbara Byers, Executive Vice-President of the Canadian Labour Congress....

...women in Canada who worked full-time, full-year jobs in 2005 earned just 70½ cents for every dollar earned by men in full-time, full-year jobs.


There's something seriously wrong with this picture. What valid reasons are preventing women from receiving the same pay as their counterparts? Not a damn thing. We have 'assumed' things for way too long, and have been taken for granted for centuries upon centuries. At first, there was no pay, then we worked for peanuts, then, we finally got to work in the same workplaces as men, doing the same amount of work, what happens? We get stiffed again.

Additional input to what my opponent previously said Re: Sanitation Engineer: If a man is going to be paid more than a woman (remember...she does the same amount of work?)...then I fully understand why we won't hardly see any gals out slingling garbage bags at all. It wouldn't be financially feasible now, would it?

Practice makes Prrrrrfect!


Again a point that females should not rule the world is in the way women treat each other in large groups. This cattiness at times can be downright devastating. Rivalries between two or more females in a business setting can become heated to the point of physically abusive


Cattiness is no more different then a bunch of a males coming together, and locking horns over supremacy of pretty much anything. Males can be just as brutal. Competition is competition, anyway you dice it. "A clout on the jaw"...or..."A jolt of the claw" say that ten times fast


My opponent will tell you that women if given the chance would create a world of peace and prosperity with equality and fairness among all humans. Unfortunately this is not true.


Oh? I've given you a pretty good example already. Read my Opening Statement again and scroll to the part called: When all else fails...bring in a women to the conference table. There was a LOT of male cattiness going on at the conference table, and it took just one woman to reconcile the entire mess. That's just the tip of the iceberg. Now, imagine many women who could be given these opportunities as well - worldwide.


However to give women absolute control of the world would be akin to giving a small child a .44 Magnum. The child may indeed be intelligent and mature enough to wield such a weapon. However the physical strength that the child has is severely wanting for the power of such a firearm.


I'm very appreciative of the fact that, some great men in our history, took a chance on us women by opening a few doors, and allowing us membership to their 'male-only establishments'. They must have had some iota of faith in us, to trust us to positions that entailed monumentous decision makings. It may or may not have started off with a blind faith attitude, as women have already proven themselves to be much more capable than anyone could imagine.

Had not a single man stepped up to the plate, and got 'the ball rolling', as well as retained the attitude that I quoted from you above, we probably wouldn't be debating and speaking to each other at this point in time. The computer would have been deemed 'hands off' to women, as they wouldn't understand the QWERTY system on the keyboard for typing, let alone have been permitted any education to be able to read. Thank God for progress.

As far as the 44 Magnum? You can also thank the system for allowing the many men and women (Police, Military, etc) who have put their lives on the line to serve and protect us all equally. Outstanding leaders in their community.


The scrutiny that they would be under is may be too much to bear for a woman that relies on emotions to rule.


There you go again...(excuse me for one sec folks...gotta go flip that record over...getting tired of the same song over and over again)
We got the brains...we don't. We are capable...then were not. It sounds to me, as though my male friend here is 'flip-flopping' between his thoughts and words.


Absolutely there are double standards in the workplace and in society as a whole. This is to make it fair for women to co exist with men.


Make it fair? Who is my opponent trying to kid? Why not cut out ALL 'doublespeak' on both sides, and be up front with each other in the first place. Skirting around the issues by replacing them with shallow niceities and stereotypical responsive behaviors does not make for a productively growing culture. It only strengthens the already existing 'divides' that are between us.

One last thing.

I wanted to bring up the fact of one particular female monarch that was on your naughty list?

If she was that bad a ruler, I don't think we'd be celebrating this lady's birthday up here in Canada on May 25 every year. She was one of the longest reigning British rulers for close to 60 years.

This holliday is known as Victoria Day - named after Queen Victoria.

Thankyou

“Ridicule is the Burden of Genius.” ~Daffy Duck~ 1937

Daffy is adding hasenpfeffer to the Wabbit seasoning...



posted on Mar, 27 2008 @ 11:42 PM
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Rebuttal Trois, Ma Réfutation finale:
(Translation: Rebuttal Three, My Final Rebuttal)

Let us look at women mathematically shall we?

First we state that women require time and money:

Women = Time X Money

And as we all know “time is money”

Time = Money

Therefore by substituting Money for Time we get:

Women = Money X Money

Women = (Money)2

And because “money is the root of all evil” we therefore can state:

Money = (Evil)1/2

And Since

(Money)2 = Women

Then (Money)2 = Evil

And we are forced to conclude by substituting "women" for "(money)2" from above that:

Women = Evil

Obviously a joke, sorry I had to throw that one in to this debate somewhere.


My opponent obviously mistakes mental faculty and emotional capacity as one and the same. This may bring one to the conclusion that I am flip flopping on this issue however if read carefully my words will be understood. Women certainly can be just as intelligent as any man. This is true. However women can be too controlled by their emotions.

Now please allow me to retort my opponent’s rebuttal about my flip-flop quotes.


My opponent has shown to be only 'consistant in his inconsistancy' by contradicting his own words, yet once again. One minute, he's quoting scenes of a movie that belittles the intelligence of women:


His response clears up this debate from my side well “I think of a man, and take away reason and accountability.


Then, in the next breath he states:


While it is true that women have the mental faculties requisite for the job of world leader


Really? Is that what I did now? Hmm let us facts check me for a moment.


Reason, Noun:

2 a (1): the power of comprehending, inferring, or thinking especially in orderly rational ways
. Source: Merriam-Webster online dictionary.

This does not denote lack of intelligence. This only denotes a way of thinking.


Accountability, Noun:

The quality or state of being accountable; especially : an obligation or willingness to accept responsibility or to account for one's actions
. Source: Merriam-Webster online dictionary.

Two requisite qualities that are generally not found within the female gender and thus would make a woman less qualified to rule the world. This does not however diminish the fact that women can be just as intelligent or more so than a man.


Intelligence Noun:

1 a (1): the ability to learn or understand or to deal with new or trying situations, (2): the ability to apply knowledge to manipulate one's environment or to think abstractly as measured by objective criteria (as tests)

Source: Merriam-Webster online dictionary.

The above example women share in common with any man is intelligence. Let us not confuse lack of reason or accountability with intelligence. These are wholly separate concepts and thus my statement quoted from “As good as it gets” stands as not a flip-flop statement.

Long live the Queen
(I'm gonna get lynched by SimonGray and Asala for this I just know it)

Now I shall shed light on why I deemed Queen Victoria so harshly. Queen Victoria fought more wars in her time then any queen in English history.

Under Victoria the British government was involved in countless wars in her colonies across the world. This was the era of the "Great" (or evil) British Empire. Involved in wars including the Sudan, India, the Boers, South Africa and the Crimean. India suffered its first famine after being conquered by the evil British. Yea, great ruler there Vicky, so much for female rulers being the bringers of peace and prosperity to humanity.

Also just because a day is celebrated for someone does not make that person a good human. Case in point is; Guy Fawkes Day celebrated in England. This is a day that honors a terrorist.

My opponent repeatedly astounds on the inequity of pay within the workplace as a fundamental flaw within males ruling the world. However it also appears that women are selective at what they are willing to do.

Case in point:

If a man is going to be paid more than a woman (remember...she does the same amount of work?)...then I fully understand why we won't hardly see any gals out slingling garbage bags at all.


I fully believe that if a woman is going to do the same job as I do than she should be paid exactly the same wage for the same work. However one cannot and should not be paid for work not done. Does this study show for instance; women who instead of doing her job, chats on the phone or on a computer, does her nails, leaves work for various personal reasons, calls in sick because of a period, etc? My argument with the female sanitation engineer example is that while yes women can indeed do jobs just as well as a man and should be paid exactly the same as a man we cannot be truly equal in this society unless women understands and does the same jobs as a man.

let the fur fly!


Cattiness is no more different then a bunch of a males coming together, and locking horns over supremacy of pretty much anything. Males can be just as brutal. Competition is competition, anyway you dice it. "A clout on the jaw"...or..."A jolt of the claw" say that ten times fast


Males have a well-known set of rules of engagement that have been instilled within us for centuries, millennia even.

The first rule of fight club is: No hitting below the belt. Guys know this. More often than not in a physical confrontation hitting the genitalia of a fellow man is deemed as dishonorable. We have clear criteria as to what is acceptable in a fight and what is not acceptable.

Heck men have rules and guidelines about everything we do.


The first rule of the Men's Room is, you do not talk in the Men's Room.
The second rule of the Men's Room is, you DO NOT talk in the Men's Room.
Third rule of the Men's Room, someone says "hi" or tries to talk to you, the bathroom break is over.
Fourth rule, only two guys at or near the urinals.
Fifth rule, one person taking a (snip) at a time, fellas.
Sixth rule, no sitting down to pee.
Seventh rule, standing at the urinal acting like your peeing to avoid walking out with somebody else will go on as long as it has to.
And the eighth and final rule, if this is your first time in the Men's Room, you have to use the urinal.

Source: Men’s Room Rules Ala Fight Club

In general women do not engage each other in such an honorable way and resort to various vicious attacks, personal slander, diabolical tactics in order to win a fight. In a fight with a man often the first place a woman will strike is the male’s genitalia.

It is indeed true that males are territorial creatures, fiercely so. Hence why there are boarders in the first place.

Play it again Sam



There you go again...(excuse me for one sec folks...gotta go flip that record over...getting tired of the same song over and over again)
We got the brains...we don't. We are capable...then were not. It sounds to me, as though my male friend here is 'flip-flopping' between his thoughts and words.


**Sigh** Let me expunge on this and show what is flip-flopping. Actually what is downright insanity in my opinion. Please take note of the underlined bold parts to this post by Jovi1…


Originally posted by Jovi1
Honestly it sounds like you were a bit smothering here. The first thing you have to understand is to stop listening and doing what women say they want, by doing this stuff you are not being yourself. Also she didnt just overnight just decide she was done with you, they just dont up and leave they drop hints and clues and try to talk to you about it You however didnt listen and the result of the not listening or paying attention got you right where you are now.

Source: I loved her so much...why is she doing this to me?

That is flip-flopping. What my opponent deems from my posts as flip-flopping is not correct. It is her misunderstanding of the point I am trying to make.

Yes women are intelligent, women are certainly capable members of society, women should have equal rights, and women should hold jobs that pay equally the same as their male counterparts for the actual same amount of work preformed.

However women should not rule the world because women in general make decisions based on emotion and do not effectively use reason or logic in their decisions. These traits or rather lack thereof is why I said that to give a woman sole rule of the earth would be akin to giving a child a handgun. It’s just not a good idea. I have further illustrated this point historically citing specific women that have gained power and have abused this power as examples of why women should not rule the world.

But alas for now I leave you with…

Bugs: (spins the rifle clockwise and aims it at himself, reversing the flow) "Rabbit season."



posted on Mar, 28 2008 @ 01:35 PM
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CLOSING STATEMENT

One of the funnier parts of this debate, was at the very beginning, when whatukno thought he had to take the Pro position (mine). I could almost hear him having his first heart attack! It was later clarified, and then I heard a huge 'sigh of relief' coming from all the way down in Florida.

Vagabond, Sir, Thankyou so much for setting up this debate between myself and Whatuno. I've had a blast, and just wanted to let Whatuno know, that I've never taken offense to what you said all, and had a great time going toe-to-toe with you. As the saying goes: "Water off a Ducky's back."

****
Summary

As I've stipulated from my Opening Statement, it was only a matter of time, before my opponent and myself would be bantering the 'forever epitomized issues' between men and women. I personally would have prefered more time on the subject to bring about many more aspects pertaining to 'women's leadership'. Instead I found myself, caught up in a viscious circle; attempting to present a positive venue regarding female leadership roles, and at the same time hashing and rehashing 'conversation 57' yet once again. A two-prong attack.

David vs Goliath?

Physical strength seemed to entail a small part of the debate, and yet wasn't a major issue. I found that my opponent singled out female emotions (more than anything else), to provide blanket statements to cover the entire premises of his stance. Accountability is: '"Knowing that these things will always be a natural part of the female gendre, yet, to work with these issues on both sides equally and most importantly positively, will insure a better understanding of each other, rather than standing back at a distance, forever pointing the finger of blame."

****
The female race has certainly progressed to higher levels of maturity, integredity, respect, ingenuity, technology, etc. by leaps and bounds. Never has this been more prominent in any other part of history as within the 20th century and unto the present date - 2008.

We haven't sat on our hands at all. In fact, we've had our mitts in men's political cookie jars from time to time, throughout history, and have waited (ever patiently) for the most opportune time to exert our voices and much needed talents for thousands of years. Only to be slapped on the hand...like a parent to a child...while men looked down at us and continually decried, "You don't deserve any!" or "Not yet!"

This demeaning attitude, along with arrogance and pride has taken a toll on the whole of our society. You won't find many life-changing attributions of women being written up in the earlier history books of men. They unfortuneatly, have been swept to the wayside, as to not 'get in the way' of man's achievements, and/or has been conveniently obscured, as to denote soul credit 'deserveth unto man, and him alone.'

As mentioned before: I thank not only the voice of reason, and my God above, that there are some great men out there, who are not biased, and not so full of themselves, that they are willing to share 'center stage'. These men, I have very much respect for.

We can all feign to be rulers if we want, however, if one side is obstinate and beligerent enough, not to exhaust other avenues/solutions (albeit from female)...then woe unto mankind.

A good leader will not only 'know their own limits', but are willing to admit when they are wrong, and immediately rectify the situation, to ensure that the best of both worlds (to the best of their abilities), that will benefit both equally. Hopefully, the extraordinary talents of boths sexes are not left to hang dry.

****

Women have left their mark on this world, and will continue to do so. It is up to ALL of us to decide, where to draw or erase the lines of indifferences. I don't have all the answers. It's been a helluva ride so far.

One thing I do know...

Virginia Baby...you've come a long way!

Thankyou


Daffy offers to buy the Wabbit a drink. "Hey Wabbit? Never mind trigger-finger Elmer over there, let's you and I hop on outta here. Daffy holds up one more sign...it reads: Truce?



posted on Mar, 29 2008 @ 07:25 AM
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Closing Statement.

Summary:

In this debate I have tried to show using logic, reason, historical accounts, and personal experience why women are ill equipped to rule the world.

To embody my point:

One thing that cannot be used in this debate anymore is the aspect of physical strength. Physical strength no longer is an issue. During the middle ages this was an issue, as to the rule of might makes right. But the requisite quality of a modern leader is mental faculty and not physical acumen. I have indeed harped upon mental clarity. This is the defining ideal that separates leaders from everyone else.

Imelda Marcos comes to mind when mental clarity of a female leader comes into question. Can anyone say “shopoholic”?


After the Marcos family fled Malacañang Palace, Imelda was found to own 15 mink coats, 508 gowns, 888 handbags and 1060 pairs of shoes.


Tz'u-his, or alternatively The Dowager Princess is another female ruler that used her country in a dishonorable way and thus shows the inability for feminine rule.


The traditional view of the Empress Dowager Cixi was that of a devious despot who contributed in no small part to China's slide into corruption, anarchy, and revolution. During Cixi's time, she used her power to accumulate vast quantities of money, bullion, antiques and jewelry, using the revenues of the state as her own. By the end of her reign she had amassed a huge personal fortune, stashing away some eight and a half million pounds sterling in London banks. The lavish palaces, gardens and lakes built by Cixi were hugely extravagant at a time when China was verging on bankruptcy.


Again mental acumen is at issue here not physical strength.

Let us remember the past in order for us to not repeat it. Tales of warning to not fully trust the female gender range throughout history. Biblically it has been shown that females would not listen to the lord. Lot’s wife is a prime example of this;


The angels took Lot, his wife, and his daughters by hand and drew them forcibly out of their house, saying, "Save yourselves with all haste. Look not behind you. Get as fast as you are able to the mountain, unless you be involved in the calamity of the city." Lot entreated the angels, who consented that he might retire to Zoar, which was one of the five doomed cities. His wife, looking back on Sodom, was turned into a pillar of salt.


Of course let us not forget Eve…

But this is not to say that women do not deserve their place in history, to be perfectly honest while man is the head, it is turned by the neck that is the woman. In history this is no better personified than the Oracle at Delphi. Leaders of nations consulted this Oracle for answers and followed her advice. Also in ancient Rome, Sibylline Books written by the Hellespontine Sibyl were consulted for a broad range of topics and the advice given within these pages were taken to heart by the Roman Emperor Tarquinius Superbus.

Also let us not forget a truism brought forth by my opponent in her opening statement which I will now discuss…

Extra Tidbit:


An English professor wrote the words, “Woman without her man is nothing” on the blackboard and directed his students to punctuate it correctly.

The men wrote: “Woman, without her man, is nothing.”

The women wrote: “Woman: Without her, man is nothing.”


I concede that both statements are indeed true. For “behind every great man is a great woman”.

My opponent has also shown you that women in business are a great asset. This is because business (as anyone that has worked in business can attest to) rarely uses logic or reason. Therefore women in business are indeed an asset.

In Conclusion

Historically given the amount of women that have been failed rulers versus those that have left the world better than they have found it versus the amount of male rulers that have come and gone doing the same we come up with the ratio that shows that female rulers are not as equipped for the job of ruling the world than their male counterparts.

One last point before I leave you…

How can you trust a creature that can bleed for five days and not die?

Thank you,

What U KNO

Bugs turns to Daffy, “You got it Doc. Truce… let’s get that drink.



posted on Apr, 14 2008 @ 10:31 PM
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The Duckster has won.


"TheDuckster" won this quite handily...

While Whatukno flirted around with humor and various examples of "bad" women, TheDuckster stayed on topic and used several good arguments throughout.

It never really appeared to me that Whatukno took the topic serious and his position reflected this.

I particularly liked TheDucksters use of the "Male Dominated" society and the problems inherent in that society. This also went almost completely unrebutted by Whatukno."



posted on Apr, 15 2008 @ 08:43 AM
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Bravo Ducky good job!


Congradulations on the win



posted on Apr, 15 2008 @ 01:09 PM
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Thankyou so much Wukky!

I had a great time with this one.

And see? I didn't have to use your words against you from the BTS thread(s)! lol wink wink...nudge nudge

Not bad my friend...not bad at all



P.S. I'm building up my harem now...wanna join? lololol

~Ducky~





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